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  #31  
Old Apr 15, '05, 1:11 pm
fix fix is offline
 
Join Date: June 2, 2004
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Default Re: Hard look at current state of the Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by condan
Mr. Buchanan is 100% right-on!. Vatican II has spread confusion and dissent among pew Catholics. Our teaching, what little there is, is watered down. Painfully few teach about faith and morals as they relate to today's world, i.e., artificial contraception, abortion, adultery, materialism, in any meaningful way. The misinterpretations and misapplications of Vatican II has rendered Catholicism, in its present weakened, watered-down form, meaningless. That's why only one in four Catholics regularly attends Mass.

Mr. Buchanan is right that we need an Athanasius. We need a good smack in the face as well. We pray every night that the new pope will continue the work of John Paul II but will also pull no punches in explaining what being authentically Catholic means.
Good article and even better reply by Condan.
  #32  
Old Apr 15, '05, 9:27 pm
Catherine S. Catherine S. is offline
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Default Re: Hard look at current state of the Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by BK80734
The misleading/careless thing about this article is that it talks about "Catholics in America" while seeming to talk about "Catholicism in General." As we have seen and heard over and over again the last couple of weeks, the overall story for the Church throughout the world is one of hope and growth. The fact that North Americans are increasingly succumbing to the Culture of Death is not an indictment of the Church, but of our society in North America.

It-Went-Out-with-Vatican-II disease causes many Catholics to talk as though the Church before the Council was a completely different animal than the Church after the Council and not, as is the case, a divinely guided continuation of the same Church.

Funny thing is, both arch-conservative dissenters and arch-liberal dissenters from the Catholic Church talk this way. For the arch-traditionalist dissenter, the post-conciliar Church is bad because it is no longer the Catholic Church, and the goal is to climb into a Wayback Machine and return to some Golden Age. For the arch-liberal, the post-conciliar Church is supposedly NewChurch or WomynChurch or AmChurch or McChurch—a faboo new Church having nothing whatever to do with that awful old "pre-Vatican II Church."

It is only on the somewhat minor matter of whether the old or new Church is good that conservative and liberal dissenters disagree. On the central question of whether there are two Churches, pre- and post-Vatican II, they are in happy agreement. How good and pleasant it is when brothers dwell together in unity!

But if you ask the Church itself, you get a different answer. It goes on insisting that there is one holy, Catholic, and apostolic Church.

Complete article at:
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2002/0207fea3.asp


Any implication, therefore, that Vatican II has in any way abrogated dogmatic expositions of former councils calls into question the divine institution and perpetual guarantee of the Catholic faith. Furthermore, the Second Vatican Council made no dogmatic definitions: Its purpose was strictly pastoral in nature. And Vatican II declared expressis verbis the continuity of the "spirit" of its utterances with that of former councils. The Holy Father gave a clear answer to those who wish to treat Vatican II as a kind of beginning of the authentic Christian revelation, as a new norm against which the teachings of former Councils must be measured: "The teachings of the Council do not constitute a complete, organic system of Catholic doctrine. Doctrine is much more extensive, as everyone knows, and it is not called into question by the Council nor substantively modified" (Address of Pope Paul VI, Jan. 12, 1966).
Complete article at :
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1998/9810clas.asp

Shalom,
Catherine

  #33  
Old Apr 16, '05, 7:55 am
condan condan is offline
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Default Re: Hard look at current state of the Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by fix
Good article and even better reply by Condan.
Well thank you! What a nice thing to say. Our family prays nightly for our beloved Chuch and for our consecrated religious that they may have the courage and strength to teach us how to truly live our faith in our daily lives. (And, believe me, it ain't easy!).
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  #34  
Old Apr 16, '05, 8:00 am
condan condan is offline
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Join Date: June 3, 2004
Posts: 1,508
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Default Re: Hard look at current state of the Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by Catherine S.

It-Went-Out-with-Vatican-II disease causes many Catholics to talk as though the Church before the Council was a completely different animal than the Church after the Council and not, as is the case, a divinely guided continuation of the same Church.

Funny thing is, both arch-conservative dissenters and arch-liberal dissenters from the Catholic Church talk this way. For the arch-traditionalist dissenter, the post-conciliar Church is bad because it is no longer the Catholic Church, and the goal is to climb into a Wayback Machine and return to some Golden Age. For the arch-liberal, the post-conciliar Church is supposedly NewChurch or WomynChurch or AmChurch or McChurch—a faboo new Church having nothing whatever to do with that awful old "pre-Vatican II Church."

It is only on the somewhat minor matter of whether the old or new Church is good that conservative and liberal dissenters disagree. On the central question of whether there are two Churches, pre- and post-Vatican II, they are in happy agreement. How good and pleasant it is when brothers dwell together in unity!

But if you ask the Church itself, you get a different answer. It goes on insisting that there is one holy, Catholic, and apostolic Church.

Complete article at:
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2002/0207fea3.asp


Any implication, therefore, that Vatican II has in any way abrogated dogmatic expositions of former councils calls into question the divine institution and perpetual guarantee of the Catholic faith. Furthermore, the Second Vatican Council made no dogmatic definitions: Its purpose was strictly pastoral in nature. And Vatican II declared expressis verbis the continuity of the "spirit" of its utterances with that of former councils. The Holy Father gave a clear answer to those who wish to treat Vatican II as a kind of beginning of the authentic Christian revelation, as a new norm against which the teachings of former Councils must be measured: "The teachings of the Council do not constitute a complete, organic system of Catholic doctrine. Doctrine is much more extensive, as everyone knows, and it is not called into question by the Council nor substantively modified" (Address of Pope Paul VI, Jan. 12, 1966).
Complete article at :
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1998/9810clas.asp

Shalom,
Catherine

While one may or may not agree with your position, the fact is that there is an large number of religious as well as pew sitters who viewed Vatican II as a "free-for-all" where "thinking" Catholics were allowed to "use their conscience" to make decisions personal on faith and morals that suited their own individual circumstances, regardless of how it meshed with Sacred Scripture.

Most of us have experienced the fruit of this tree and its rotten to the core.
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  #35  
Old Apr 16, '05, 9:57 am
Catherine S. Catherine S. is offline
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Join Date: July 9, 2004
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Default Re: Hard look at current state of the Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by condan
While one may or may not agree with your position, the fact is that there is an large number of religious as well as pew sitters who viewed Vatican II as a "free-for-all" where "thinking" Catholics were allowed to "use their conscience" to make decisions personal on faith and morals that suited their own individual circumstances, regardless of how it meshed with Sacred Scripture.

Most of us have experienced the fruit of this tree and its rotten to the core.
Folks have been experiencing this and much much worse throughout church history ! Trust the Lord ! My own perception is that many in the west will leave the Church with the election of our new pope while many more will come into the Church or return to it !
Shalom


The Church will survive because the Lord will make sure it survives. One of the greatest comeback lines in history was uttered two hundred years ago. As his armies were swallowing up the countries of Europe, French emperor Napoleon is reported to have said to Church officials, "Je détruirai votre église" ("I will destroy your Church")." When informed of the emperor’s words, Ercole Cardinal Consalvi, one of the great statesmen of the papal court, replied, "He will never succeed. We have not managed to do it ourselves!" If bad popes, immoral priests, and countless sinners in the Church hadn’t succeeded in destroying the Church from within, Cardinal Consalvi was saying, how did Napoleon think he was going to do it from without?

The Cardinal was pointing to a crucial truth: Christ will never allow his Church to fail. He promised that the gates of hell would not prevail against his Church (Matt. 16:18); that the barque of Peter, the Church sailing through time to its eternal port in heaven, will never capsize—not because those in the boat won’t do everything sinfully possible to overturn it but because Christ, who is captain of the boat, will never allow it to happen.
Fr. Roger Landry serves in the diocese of Fall River, Massachusetts
Complete article located at:
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2002/0205fea1.asp

Last edited by Catherine S.; Apr 16, '05 at 10:09 am.
  #36  
Old Apr 16, '05, 2:34 pm
Simes Simes is offline
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Join Date: June 5, 2004
Posts: 21
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Hard look at current state of the Church

The Cardinal was pointing to a crucial truth: Christ will never allow his Church to fail. He promised that the gates of hell would not prevail against his Church (Matt. 16:18); that the barque of Peter, the Church sailing through time to its eternal port in heaven, will never capsize—not because those in the boat won’t do everything sinfully possible to overturn it but because Christ, who is captain of the boat, will never allow it to happen.
Fr. Roger Landry serves in the diocese of Fall River, Massachusetts



There was an interesting comment by one of the BBC reporters during the Pope's funeral, stating that the Catholic Church is the oldest institution in Western civilization.

History does bear witness to the truth of Jesus' words in Matthew 16.
  #37  
Old Apr 16, '05, 3:16 pm
flick427 flick427 is offline
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Join Date: July 11, 2004
Posts: 312
Religion: Roman Catholic
Default Re: Hard look at current state of the Church

Wwe are suppose to trust the Lord, but we are also under the obligation to stay true to our faith as best as we can...I think that it is a problem when we the faithful see a problem and say "Oh, Jesus will fix it". I don't think we are supposed to just sit and watch the church fall apart with our mouths open in awe and dismay...we need to confront the problems and help change things back to the way they should be...HOLY!
It would seem the majority of our church leadership is not doing their job.
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  #38  
Old Apr 17, '05, 7:12 pm
Catherine S. Catherine S. is offline
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Join Date: July 9, 2004
Posts: 29,052
Religion: Roman Catholic
Default Re: Hard look at current state of the Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by flick427
Wwe are suppose to trust the Lord, but we are also under the obligation to stay true to our faith as best as we can...I think that it is a problem when we the faithful see a problem and say "Oh, Jesus will fix it". I don't think we are supposed to just sit and watch the church fall apart with our mouths open in awe and dismay...we need to confront the problems and help change things back to the way they should be...HOLY!
It would seem the majority of our church leadership is not doing their job.
True How we do and say things can and often does point to mean spiritedness..too much self involved. It causes more damage than good. We can choose to speak in care, concern and respect because Christ said to do so" love one another as I have loved you ! We all have a loooooooog way to go-- no? None of us is sitting on the side of the Saints (as yet) we are all still sitting in the sinners box - no ? ! We need to act a liitle more from that space ! When we lament what goes on in the Church it needs to be on the side of Christ...this focus (I believe ) helps us to keep a balance and God will bless our efforts at sharing with others. We aim at relationship or we initiate re-action. Much of the good guy bad guy stuff is not only mean spirited it is also ( at times) hateful ! Christ is always in the boat no matter how stormy things seem to be...He is still speaking the same words He spoke way back on that boat! Hold onto the line and trust.... we will have another great pope by Wednesday or Thursday !
Shalom,
Catherine
 

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