Value of Non-Christian religions

[rossum]

Originally Posted by fbg36

Hi, Rossum. That pretty much sums it up. Each of the paths can "work" for somebody who honestly follows it with faith and effort. I think this includes the Tibetan way (though you've expressed some disfavor).

Different methods work for different people. I personally did not get on well with Tibetan methods, but other people do very well with them. They are merely a means to an end, and are not essential.

The actual foundation is sunyata/emptiness

That is precisely the part of Tibetan Buddhism I have tried to retain, while ignoring the "bells and smells" part.

and the realization that one's true home is right in the midst of cause and effect and universal suffering.

Agreed:

The emptiness of emptiness is the fact that not even emptiness exists ultimately, that it is also dependent, conventional, nominal, and in the end it is just the everydayness of the everyday. Penetrating to the depths of being, we find ourselves back on the surface of things and so discover that there is nothing, after all, beneath those deceptive surfaces. Moreover, what is deceptive about them is simply the fact that we assume ontological depth lurking just beneath.

Jay Garfield, "Empty words, Buddhist philosophy and cross-cultural interpretation." OUP 2002.

rossum

[Siddhartha]

Originally Posted by fbg36

I've often wondered about Theravada and any possible connection to Mahayana's bodhisattva ideal. What do you think? The bhikkhus I used to talk to in Sri Lanka were adamantly sure that the bodhisattva business of Mahayana was pure heresy.
.

In Thailand, you can find Theravadin monastics (men and women) who have taken bodhisatta vows.

[Anna Scott]

Originally Posted by OmegaSupreme

Most of this thread so far has been focused on Buddhism, but there are other religions out there that have been quite influential. And none moreso than one in particular: Judaism.

A few years back I looked into Judaism quite heavily. To say that Judaism brings no value to Christianity is almost like saying a mother brings no value to her child. At one point I was seriously thinking about converting to Orthodox Judaism, but further reflection on my part stopped me from doing so. My main reason was that deep down, I didn't think I would be a very good Jew (as in following the mitzvah).

However, that time spent looking into Judaism is largely responsible for my long path back to God. Reading the Scriptures with a Jewish understanding of them really helped in bringing them into perspective, and made me realize how out of sorts my mind was when it came to truly understanding Christianity.

My upbringing as a Fundamental Baptist instilled in me a severely outdated and simplistic understanding of God and the Scriptures. I was quite surprised to find out that Jews have a more developed understanding than many Fundamentalist Christians. This experience is what ultimately helped open my eyes and my heart to Catholicism. I see Catholicism having more in common with Judaism than with Christian Fundamentalism.

OmegaSupreme:

I grew up in Baptist Churches, and I know what you are talking about.

Jesus was a Jewish Rabi, who taught and observed Jewish feasts, as a Rabi would do. Yet, we seem to forget that He was Jewish.

Salvation is indeed of the Jews. Jesus came to fulfill the law and the prophets; and according to Scripture, all of Israel will be saved.

In many ways, Judaism holds a more optimistic view of live. There is a great emphasis placed on serving God, because He is God. My Jewish friends have little concern regarding the afterlife. It is just not in their thinking. Loving God and one another is their goal. I am amazed at their devotion to God and the good they do for others. They put many Christians to shame, including myself.

Most Jews do not believe a blood atonement is necessary for the forgiveness of sins. And they pose an interesting question: If God makes the rules--why does anyone have to die? I have given this a great deal of thought, and I'm not sure I have a good answer to this Jewish question.

Jesus forgave sins throughout His ministry, and not once did he instruct those forgiven to make a blood sacrifice to complete their "forgiveness." John baptized for the repentance and forgiveness of sins. Most people overlook that. Yet, it is written in the New Testament.

I have read Jewish commentaries that pose the possibility that God instructed the Israelites to sacrifice to Him, to keep them from sacrificing to pagan gods.

There are Jewish authors who say the Christian obsession with the afterlife is narcissistic. In many cases, I think this is true. Christians have been winning converts for centuries, using threats of a fiery eternal torment (which I do not believe exists.)

You said you "see Catholicism having more in common with Judaism than with Christian Fundamentalism." I definitely agree. In fact, my Jewish friends did tell me that most Jews who convert to Christianity, concert to Catholicism.

There are a surprising number of Christians converting to Judaism, though it is not an easy conversion. As you would have discovered, it takes at least a year of study; and you must be willing to give up Christ, or whatever previous religious beliefs you held.

At the same time, they believe others, outside Judaism with be part of God's salvation.

I think it is difficult to fully embrace Christianity without an understanding of Judaism and the role of Christ as a Jewish Rabi.

Anna

[LJinPA]

Perhaps the Orthodox Christian churches also have a lot in common with Judaism.

I believe the fullness of truth is found in the Catholic churches and for the most part, Orthodox churches, however I've met non Catholics who are better Catholics than some Catholics, and non Christians who are better Christians than some Christians...

[Andrew1983]

[quote=Anna Scott;5917459]OmegaSupreme:

Most Jews do not believe a blood atonement is necessary for the forgiveness of sins. And they pose an interesting question: If God makes the rules--why does anyone have to die? I have given this a great deal of thought, and I'm not sure I have a good answer to this Jewish question.

The blood atonement started with the sin and guilt offerings under the Mosaic Law. Is there a religious reason that the Jews would change their position on this? I thought the only reason for this was because the Temple of Solomon had to be rebuilt.

Jesus forgave sins throughout His ministry, and not once did he instruct those forgiven to make a blood sacrifice to complete their "forgiveness." John baptized for the repentance and forgiveness of sins. Most people overlook that. Yet, it is written in the New Testament.

Come to think of it, I don't remember hearing anything about the animal sacrifices in terms of the New Testament. It's definitely something to keep a watch for after I finish the Old. Speaking of the Old Testament, I don't recall the animal sacrifices going on during the Maccabean era (250-150 BC, or thereabouts) either, but I may have just forgotten it.

I have read Jewish commentaries that pose the possibility that God instructed the Israelites to sacrifice to Him, to keep them from sacrificing to pagan gods.

Interesting. Even in Genesis, the patriarchs of old, such as Noah, Abraham, Isaac, etc. participated in the ritualistic sacrifices. Either way I'm curious into looking at this myself at some point. Are these recent commentaries or are they throughout the centuries?

There are Jewish authors who say the Christian obsession with the afterlife is narcissistic. In many cases, I think this is true. Christians have been winning converts for centuries, using threats of a fiery eternal torment (which I do not believe exists.)

I don't think a literal physical depiction of fire and brimstone is meant, but more of a metaphor of the emotional/spiritual pain one is cast into or refuses to let go of upon leaving this world. I do agree that being threatened with punishment isn't the best way to convert a person, mainly because it doesn't lead to a sincere or honest conversion, henceforth, it is invalid.

I think it is difficult to fully embrace Christianity without an understanding of Judaism and the role of Christ as a Jewish Rabi.

Anna

I wholeheartedly agree with this. One can't truly comprehend the New Testament without understanding the Old.

[Byzantine_Wolf]

Originally Posted by Anna Scott

Jesus was a Jewish Rabi, who taught and observed Jewish feasts, as a Rabi would do. Yet, we seem to forget that He was Jewish.

I think we discussed this before in the past, but what many seem to forget is that, besides being Jewish, Jesus was also God, and that only He is "the truth, the life, and the way" (John 14:6), and only He is the source of the Resurrection (John 11:25). This presents a problem that comes out in a later part of your post:

Originally Posted by Anna Scott

There are a surprising number of Christians converting to Judaism, though it is not an easy conversion. As you would have discovered, it takes at least a year of study; and you must be willing to give up Christ... [emphasis mine]

Give up Christ?! What did Christ say about that?

"So everyone who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven, but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven." [Matt 10:32-33]

Give up Christ? God forbid!...because He does.

Originally Posted by Anna Scott

Salvation is indeed of the Jews. Jesus came to fulfill the law and the prophets; and according to Scripture, all of Israel will be saved.

Salvation came through the Jews because Christ was born into Judaism and was the seed of Abraham, and it was the Jewish apostles who founded the Church and spread the Gospel to the Gentiles as well. Jesus came to fulfill the law and the prophets, yes, but in relation to His role as Messiah and the savior of mankind, something modern Jews deny He is.

Originally Posted by Anna Scott

In many ways, Judaism holds a more optimistic view of live. There is a great emphasis placed on serving God, because He is God. My Jewish friends have little concern regarding the afterlife. It is just not in their thinking.

Jews have a vague concept of the afterlife because the concept was always of Sheol, or the pit, where good and bad went, even though they were still divided to some degree. However, Christ ended this after His death and resurrection, when He went to the gates and tore them down, preaching to those inside and taking up to Paradise all those wishing to follow Him. Therefore for Christians Sheol is a moot point - Christ ended our role there, outside of its new role as hell.

Originally Posted by Anna Scott

Most Jews do not believe a blood atonement is necessary for the forgiveness of sins.

Most Jews now don't believe atonement for the forgiveness of sins, but that is because they no longer have the Temple where the sacrifices were performed. Yet throughout the first five books of the Old Testament we find not only patriarchs committing ritual sacrifices, but instructions given by God that animals should be sacrificed every year so that the sins of Israel might be atoned for. I do not think this was merely to keep them from sacrificing to idols, but to prepare them for the sacrifice of Christ that was to come, and to help people understand what that was really going to mean.

Originally Posted by Anna Scott

There are Jewish authors who say the Christian obsession with the afterlife is narcissistic. In many cases, I think this is true. Christians have been winning converts for centuries, using threats of a fiery eternal torment (which I do not believe exists.)

"Do not believe exists"? Be careful, lest you fall into the happy universalism preached by such Emergent heretics as Doug Pagitt.

There is a "fiery eternal torment" in the afterlife, but many Christians in the west have a very warped view of what that means. Traditional Christianity, even as far back as the days of the early Church Fathers, has always held that hell and Paradise are, in fact, on the same plane (remember that the Rich Man and Lazarus could see each other), and that there is a river of fire that runs through both. Yet while the good in Paradise are overjoyed by it, those in hell suffer from it. Why is this? Because the river of fire is an immaterial fire that is, in fact, simply God's love. The damned hate God's love and therefore are tormented by it, while those in Paradise embrace it.

God does not send people to hell just for fun. People are in hell because they choose to be in hell. Hell is the fruit of their willful separation from God.

Originally Posted by Anna Scott

Jesus forgave sins throughout His ministry, and not once did he instruct those forgiven to make a blood sacrifice to complete their "forgiveness." John baptized for the repentance and forgiveness of sins. Most people overlook that. Yet, it is written in the New Testament.

Why did Jesus forgive sins through His ministry? Because He was God, and had the power to do so. This is why the Pharisees were so shocked when He told the paralytic that His sins were forgiven, for who could forgive sins but God? And while He never gave a command for a literal sacrifice to be committed by His followers, He nonetheless did speak of a blood sacrifice...His own.

"Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer and on the third day rise from the dead, and that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem." [Luke 24:46-47]

It was the tie-in to the ritual sacrifices God had commanded Israel for atonement. Now the sacrifices would end, and only one sacrifice would be necessary: that of Christ on the cross. He would be the last and only sacrifice needed for forgiveness.

For if the blood of goats and bulls, and the sprinkling of defiled persons with the ashes of a heifer, sanctify for the purification of the flesh, how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God. [Heb 9:13-14]

[Byzantine_Wolf]

In addition to my last post, I'd like to add something that might be relevant here: true Christian thought does not follow the "easy believism" found in so many parts of Evangelical and Charismatic Christianity, where a person says one prayer and God forgives them of everything they've ever done and will do. We inherited a sinful nature from Adam that impels us to disobey God, and every day we struggle against this sinful nature. Christ's sacrifice is the source of our forgiveness, but we are still instructed to live our life as a light to the sinful world, and if we make a mistake we must turn to the cross for forgiveness. This is why Catholicism and Orthodoxy put confession so high.

This was true even in the time of the ancient Jews. Even though they performed ritual sacrifices to atone for their sins, they were still expected to live a godly life. This can be seen with the repentance of King David before the prophet Nathaniel, which later spawned the famous Psalm 51. Many modern Jews believe this today, but mistakenly assume the beliefs regarding sin and atonement as preached by TBN, Kirk Cameron, and others as orthodox Christian thought.

[Anna Scott]

Originally Posted by Byzantine_Wolf

In addition to my last post, I'd like to add something that might be relevant here: true Christian thought does not follow the "easy believism" found in so many parts of Evangelical and Charismatic Christianity, where a person says one prayer and God forgives them of everything they've ever done and will do. We inherited a sinful nature from Adam that impels us to disobey God, and every day we struggle against this sinful nature. Christ's sacrifice is the source of our forgiveness, but we are still instructed to live our life as a light to the sinful world, and if we make a mistake we must turn to the cross for forgiveness. This is why Catholicism and Orthodoxy put confession so high.

This was true even in the time of the ancient Jews. Even though they performed ritual sacrifices to atone for their sins, they were still expected to live a godly life. This can be seen with the repentance of King David before the prophet Nathaniel, which later spawned the famous Psalm 51. Many modern Jews believe this today, but mistakenly assume the beliefs regarding sin and atonement as preached by TBN, Kirk Cameron, and others as orthodox Christian thought.

Wow. . .didn't expect such response to my posts. Don't have the energy at the moment to comment fully on everything you wrote.

I will say that I do not accept the "easy believism" of "Evangelical and Charismatic Christianity." I do not believe in the OSAS doctrine proclaimed in many Protestant Churches. The New Testament makes it very clear that one can, indeed, lose their salvation. I also believe that faith without works is dead.

I do completely agree that "Christ's sacrifice is the source of our forgiveness."

I agree that the ancient Jews were expected to live a Godly life, in addition to sacrifices.

Will write more later, Mr. Wolf.

Anna

P.S. Not a fan of TV religion. Don't watch TBN. Don't know Kirk Cameron.

[fbg36]

Originally Posted by rossum

Penetrating to the depths of being, we find ourselves back on the surface of things and so discover that there is nothing, after all, beneath those deceptive surfaces. Moreover, what is deceptive about them is simply the fact that we assume ontological depth lurking just beneath.

Amen to that. The "holy path" can turn out to be a shallow playing-around with terms and concepts, plus emotions that are manufactured by a need to FEEL a certain way. Even after a person discovers the emptiness of big ideas and feelings, there's the illusion of having arrived at something tremendous in the notion of emptiness. But at least this is a good start.

Peace,

~ Frank

[rossum]

Originally Posted by fbg36

Amen to that. The "holy path" can turn out to be a shallow playing-around with terms and concepts, plus emotions that are manufactured by a need to FEEL a certain way. Even after a person discovers the emptiness of big ideas and feelings, there's the illusion of having arrived at something tremendous in the notion of emptiness. But at least this is a good start.

"Nada, nada, nada."

"Gate, gate, paragate ..."

rossum

[Byzantine_Wolf]

Originally Posted by Anna Scott

Wow. . .didn't expect such response to my posts. Don't have the energy at the moment to comment fully on everything you wrote.

I will say that I do not accept the "easy believism" of "Evangelical and Charismatic Christianity." I do not believe in the OSAS doctrine proclaimed in many Protestant Churches. The New Testament makes it very clear that one can, indeed, lose their salvation. I also believe that faith without works is dead.

I do completely agree that "Christ's sacrifice is the source of our forgiveness."

I agree that the ancient Jews were expected to live a Godly life, in addition to sacrifices.

Will write more later, Mr. Wolf.

Anna

P.S. Not a fan of TV religion. Don't watch TBN. Don't know Kirk Cameron.

Ah OK. I might have misunderstood you then.

[Anna Scott]

Originally Posted by Anna Scott

Wow. . .didn't expect such response to my posts. Don't have the energy at the moment to comment fully on everything you wrote.

I will say that I do not accept the "easy believism" of "Evangelical and Charismatic Christianity." I do not believe in the OSAS doctrine proclaimed in many Protestant Churches. The New Testament makes it very clear that one can, indeed, lose their salvation. I also believe that faith without works is dead.

I do completely agree that "Christ's sacrifice is the source of our forgiveness."

I agree that the ancient Jews were expected to live a Godly life, in addition to sacrifices.

Will write more later, Mr. Wolf.

Anna

P.S. Not a fan of TV religion. Don't watch TBN. Don't know Kirk Cameron.

Originally Posted by Byzantine_Wolf

Ah OK. I might have misunderstood you then.

No problem, Mr. Wolf. I was just passing on things I had read by Jewish authors and heard from Jewish friends.

However, I am a Protestant with issues. I have found that much of what I was taught for most of my 54 years, in Baptist Churches, is not Biblical. I have abandoned Sola Scriptura, realizing we cannot escape Christian tradition. Protestants simply traded one tradition for another. I keep saying I am caught somewhere between Protestantism and Catholicism--not the best place to be. Yes, I am a Protestant with issues.

Anna

[Anna Scott]

Originally Posted by Andrew1983

The blood atonement. . .Is there a religious reason that the Jews would change their position on this? I thought the only reason for this was because the Temple of Solomon had to be rebuilt.

God no longer required sacrifice?

Micah 6: 6 "With what shall I come before the LORD, and bow myself before God on high? Shall I come before him with burnt offerings, with calves a year old? 7 Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams, with ten thousands of rivers of oil? Shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?" 8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

Proverbs 21: 2 Every way of a man is right in his own eyes, but the LORD weighs the heart. 3 To do righteousness and justice is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice.

Jeremiah 7: 22 For in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, I did not speak to your fathers or command them concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices. 23But this command I gave them: 'Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and you shall be my people. And walk in all the way that I command you, that it may be well with you.'

Passages that identify God:
Isaiah 43: 10 "You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "and my servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he.
Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me. 11 I, I am the LORD, and besides me there is no savior. 12 I declared and saved and proclaimed, when there was no strange god among you; and you are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "and I am God.

Isaiah 45: 22 "Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other. 23 By myself I have sworn; from my mouth has gone out in righteousness a word that shall not return: 'To me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear allegiance.' 24 "Only in the LORD, it shall be said of me, are righteousness and strength; to him shall come and be ashamed all who were incensed against him. 25 In the LORD all the offspring of Israel shall be justified and shall glory."

Christ-Son of Man.

Numbers 23: 19 God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?

Psalm 146: 3 Put not your trust in princes, in a son of man, in whom there is no salvation.

Isaiah 2: 22 Stop regarding man in whose nostrils is breath, for of what account is he?

Salvation of Israel (one of many passages):
Isaiah 45: 17 But Israel is saved by the LORD with everlasting salvation; you shall not be put to shame or confounded to all eternity.

Isaiah 27: 9 Therefore by this the guilt of Jacob will be atoned for, and this will be the full fruit of the removal of his sin: when he makes all the stones of the altars like chalkstones crushed to pieces, no Asherim or incense altars will remain standing.

Deuteronomy 4: 30 When you are in tribulation, and all these things come upon you in the latter days, you will return to the LORD your God and obey his voice. 31 For the LORD your God is a merciful God. He will not leave you or destroy you or forget the covenant with your fathers that he swore to them.

The Jews could easily say that since God forsook Jesus on the cross, leaving the "man" Jesus to die; his life could not ransom another, according to Psalm 49: 7Truly no man can ransom another, or give to God the price of his life, 8 for the ransom of their life is costly and can never suffice, 9 that he should live on forever and never see the pit.

Matthew 27:46: 46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?" that is, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

Matthew 9: 12But when he heard it, he said, "Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. 13Go and learn what this means, 'I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.' For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners."

Christ is clearly referring to Hosea 6: 4What shall I do with you, O Ephraim? What shall I do with you, O Judah? Your love is like a morning cloud, like the dew that goes early away. 5 Therefore I have hewn them by the prophets; I have slain them by the words of my mouth, and my judgment goes forth as the light. 6For I desire steadfast love and not sacrifice, the knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings.

One of the most intriguing passages in NT:
Mark 12: 29 Jesus answered, "The most important is, 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. 30 And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.' 31 The second is this: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these."

32 And the scribe said to him, "You are right, Teacher. You have truly said that he is one, and there is no other besides him. 33 And to love him with all the heart and with all the understanding and with all the strength, and to love one’s neighbor as oneself, is much more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices." 34 And when Jesus saw that he answered wisely, he said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God." And after that no one dared to ask him any more questions.

[Byzantine_Wolf]

Originally Posted by Anna Scott

I keep saying I am caught somewhere between Protestantism and Catholicism

Become Orthodox.

I'm kidding. No really, I am. No, I'm not proselytizing. No! Don't ban me! Nooooooooooooo *falls into the void*

[Anna Scott]

Originally Posted by Byzantine_Wolf

Become Orthodox.

I'm kidding. No really, I am. No, I'm not proselytizing. No! Don't ban me! Nooooooooooooo *falls into the void*

Mr. Wolf,

Well, anything is possible.

I know you are not proselytizing. You're a good Wolf.

Anna