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Old Nov 20, '09, 5:20 am
lemonbeam lemonbeam is offline
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Question The First Jesus?

I was just on the National Geographic Channel website, and I came across this program called, 'The First Jesus,' which is to be aired Friday, November 20th 2009.

Here is an overview of the program:

''He called himself the King of the Jews, likely considered to be a Messiah. Just around Passover, the Romans killed him and crucified many of his followers outside Jerusalem. But his name was not Jesus... it was Simon, a self-proclaimed Messiah who died four years before Christ was born. Now, new analysis of a three-foot-tall stone tablet from the first century B.C., may speak of an early Messiah and his resurrection. We'll go to Israel to assess this unique and mysterious artifact, including comprehensive review of the script and content by a Dead Sea Scroll expert. Then, from Jerusalem to Jericho, we'll investigate key archeological ruins that could help prove Simon was indeed real.''


Read more: http://channel.nationalgeographic.co...#ixzz0XPBR3JNz



THE FIRST JESUS FACTS

“I've got enough experience now with antiquities, that when I see it, I have a gut feeling … that the thing is authentic.” — Dr. David Jeselsohn, antiquities collector

He called himself the King of the Jews, likely considered to be a Messiah. Just around Passover, the Romans killed him and crucified many of his followers outside Jerusalem. But his name was not Jesus, it was Simon, a self-proclaimed Messiah who died four years before Christ was born. Now, new analysis of a three-foot-tall stone tablet from the first century B.C., being hailed by scholars as a “Dead Sea Scroll on stone,” may speak of an early Messiah and his resurrection. Was Simon of Peraea real? Did his life serve as the prototype of a Messiah for Jesus and his followers? And could this tablet shake up the basic premise of Christianity?

ABOUT THE STONE:
  • The tablet, called the Jeselsohn Stone, is three feet tall with 87 lines of Hebrew. It was found on the antiquities market a decade ago but not seriously studied by scholars until recently.
  • Based on microscopic analysis of the soils and writing found on the stone, the tablet probably came from an area near the Dead Sea in Jordan and dates back to the first century B.C.
  • Its writing is unique because it is ink on stone in two neat columns, rather than ink on parchment or engravings on stone like so many other biblical artifacts.
  • The stone is broken and much of the wording has been washed away over time. Many scholars believe the stone’s imperfect pockmarks and the ambiguity of the text itself actually validate the stone.
  • Much of the text describes a vision of the apocalypse transmitted by the angel Gabriel.
  • The stone is controversial because it could speak of a Messiah who will rise from the dead after three days, based on line 80, which leading Messianic scholar Dr. Israel Knohl has read as “by three days live.”
  • If this reading were accurate, it would imply that the idea of a Messiah who rises from the dead after three days predates the time of Christ — providing a missing link between Judaism and Christianity, since it suggests Jesus’ death and resurrection were not unique.

ABOUT SIMON OF PERAEA:
  • A former Jewish slave, Simon of Peraea crowned himself king, claiming to be the redeemer of Israel, the Messiah.
  • He led a failed rebellion against Rome in 4 B.C. before Passover and set fire to one of King Herod’s palaces at Jericho and several other royal residences.
  • Soon after the rebellion, Simon was captured in a remote canyon and killed or chopped in the neck; his corpse was left to rot amidst the rocks. For Jews of the time of Simon of Peraea, not burying a corpse was the ultimate humiliation.
  • In the wake of his death, many of his followers were crucified.
  • Dr. Knohl believes that Jesus knew the story of Simon’s death and from it had learned that a Messiah must die to fulfill his destiny.
  • Accounts by the ancient Jewish historian Flavius Josephus may be the only literary evidence from the time that either Jesus or Simon of Peraea existed.
  • Archeological evidence of Simon’s rebellion may lie in the ruins of the ancient burned palace, which Dr. Knohl and archeologist Byron McCane set out to find in National Geographic Channel’s expedition.

Read more: http://channel.nationalgeographic.co...#ixzz0XPBgElOn

-----

What do you think of all this? This has got me a bit shaken!
  #2  
Old Nov 20, '09, 5:35 am
thistle thistle is offline
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Default Re: The First Jesus?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lemonbeam View Post
I was just on the National Geographic Channel website, and I came across this program called, 'The First Jesus,' which is to be aired Friday, November 20th 2009.

Here is an overview of the program:

''He called himself the King of the Jews, likely considered to be a Messiah. Just around Passover, the Romans killed him and crucified many of his followers outside Jerusalem. But his name was not Jesus... it was Simon, a self-proclaimed Messiah who died four years before Christ was born. Now, new analysis of a three-foot-tall stone tablet from the first century B.C., may speak of an early Messiah and his resurrection. We'll go to Israel to assess this unique and mysterious artifact, including comprehensive review of the script and content by a Dead Sea Scroll expert. Then, from Jerusalem to Jericho, we'll investigate key archeological ruins that could help prove Simon was indeed real.''


Read more: http://channel.nationalgeographic.co...#ixzz0XPBR3JNz



THE FIRST JESUS FACTS

“I've got enough experience now with antiquities, that when I see it, I have a gut feeling … that the thing is authentic.” — Dr. David Jeselsohn, antiquities collector

He called himself the King of the Jews, likely considered to be a Messiah. Just around Passover, the Romans killed him and crucified many of his followers outside Jerusalem. But his name was not Jesus, it was Simon, a self-proclaimed Messiah who died four years before Christ was born. Now, new analysis of a three-foot-tall stone tablet from the first century B.C., being hailed by scholars as a “Dead Sea Scroll on stone,” may speak of an early Messiah and his resurrection. Was Simon of Peraea real? Did his life serve as the prototype of a Messiah for Jesus and his followers? And could this tablet shake up the basic premise of Christianity?

ABOUT THE STONE:
  • The tablet, called the Jeselsohn Stone, is three feet tall with 87 lines of Hebrew. It was found on the antiquities market a decade ago but not seriously studied by scholars until recently.
  • Based on microscopic analysis of the soils and writing found on the stone, the tablet probably came from an area near the Dead Sea in Jordan and dates back to the first century B.C.
  • Its writing is unique because it is ink on stone in two neat columns, rather than ink on parchment or engravings on stone like so many other biblical artifacts.
  • The stone is broken and much of the wording has been washed away over time. Many scholars believe the stone’s imperfect pockmarks and the ambiguity of the text itself actually validate the stone.
  • Much of the text describes a vision of the apocalypse transmitted by the angel Gabriel.
  • The stone is controversial because it could speak of a Messiah who will rise from the dead after three days, based on line 80, which leading Messianic scholar Dr. Israel Knohl has read as “by three days live.”
  • If this reading were accurate, it would imply that the idea of a Messiah who rises from the dead after three days predates the time of Christ — providing a missing link between Judaism and Christianity, since it suggests Jesus’ death and resurrection were not unique.

ABOUT SIMON OF PERAEA:
  • A former Jewish slave, Simon of Peraea crowned himself king, claiming to be the redeemer of Israel, the Messiah.
  • He led a failed rebellion against Rome in 4 B.C. before Passover and set fire to one of King Herod’s palaces at Jericho and several other royal residences.
  • Soon after the rebellion, Simon was captured in a remote canyon and killed or chopped in the neck; his corpse was left to rot amidst the rocks. For Jews of the time of Simon of Peraea, not burying a corpse was the ultimate humiliation.
  • In the wake of his death, many of his followers were crucified.
  • Dr. Knohl believes that Jesus knew the story of Simon’s death and from it had learned that a Messiah must die to fulfill his destiny.
  • Accounts by the ancient Jewish historian Flavius Josephus may be the only literary evidence from the time that either Jesus or Simon of Peraea existed.
  • Archeological evidence of Simon’s rebellion may lie in the ruins of the ancient burned palace, which Dr. Knohl and archeologist Byron McCane set out to find in National Geographic Channel’s expedition.

Read more: http://channel.nationalgeographic.co...#ixzz0XPBgElOn

-----

What do you think of all this? This has got me a bit shaken!
Why does it shake you? Is your faith so weak that silly NatGeo programs which appear each year prior to Christmas and Easter cause you doubts?
  #3  
Old Nov 20, '09, 5:45 am
surritter surritter is offline
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Default Re: The First Jesus?

We believe in Jesus Christ not because we personally witnessed His presence on Earth (and certainly not because of a TV show). We believe because there were witnesses to His resurrection, who testified to others and we rely on the authenticity of those testimonies (captured within the Scriptures and the Tradition of the Church).

So if you are shaken, maybe you should investigate whether this "first" Jesus had witnesses to his resurrection. Were there roughly a dozen witnesses who were martyred rather than renounce the story? Did those witnesses themselves perform miracles in this man's name?

Probably not.
  #4  
Old Nov 20, '09, 6:39 am
seagal seagal is offline
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Default Re: The First Jesus?

Quote:
Originally Posted by surritter View Post
So if you are shaken, maybe you should investigate whether this "first" Jesus had witnesses to his resurrection. Were there roughly a dozen witnesses who were martyred rather than renounce the story? Did those witnesses themselves perform miracles in this man's name?
For that matter, where are the gospels of Simon of Peraea? If you believe that Jesus is "the only Son of God" as it says in our creed, then you can't possibly believe that Simon was his predecesor.

The very 1st point on the summary ought to be enough to raise the BS flag for you
Quote:
former Jewish slave, Simon of Peraea crowned himself king, claiming to be the redeemer of Israel, the Messiah.
Jesus never declared himself King.

The person they're talking about very possibly could have existed. Doesn't mean he was what he claimed to be.
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  #5  
Old Nov 20, '09, 7:06 am
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HopeInChrist HopeInChrist is offline
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Default Re: The First Jesus?

Historians say the same thing about Osiris (or was is Horace?) of ancient Egypt. There are a lot of creation stories and resurrection stories (ie Africa, ancient egypt, ancient Mayans...). Jesus is the only one with credibility as the Messiah.This is being sensationalized because of the time of year. In a few months this will blow over like the Dan Brown Priory of Scion garbage. Don't let this junk get to you. Jesus is the only Messiah.

-Hope
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  #6  
Old Nov 20, '09, 7:09 am
iamscifimike iamscifimike is offline
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Default Re: The First Jesus?

Kudos to you for looking at evidence and not dismissing it as "this disagrees with my beliefs"

As you investigate this it will likely be found to have holes and ultimately will strengthen our faith.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lemonbeam View Post
Simon, a self-proclaimed Messiah who died four years before Christ was born.
This is funny, they also know the exact year of Jesus' birth

Quote:
Originally Posted by lemonbeam View Post
the ambiguity of the text itself actually validate the stone.
look at ambiguity of text, not validate the stone in this sentence

Quote:
Originally Posted by lemonbeam View Post
Much of the text describes a vision of the apocalypse transmitted by the angel Gabriel.
So does the Quran

Quote:
Originally Posted by lemonbeam View Post
The stone is controversial because it could speak of a Messiah who will rise from the dead after three days, based on line 80, which leading Messianic scholar Dr. Israel Knohl has read as “by three days live.”
Many of the circumstances surrounding the Messiah are well known in Jewish culture and text.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lemonbeam View Post
If this reading were accurate, it would imply that the idea of a Messiah who rises from the dead after three days predates the time of Christ — providing a missing link between Judaism and Christianity, since it suggests Jesus’ death and resurrection were not unique.
The idea is not unique. There are sun god myths all over the place because the sun appears to "die" for three days before rising again. It is interesting to me that a celestial pattern would inspire stories in cultures throughout the world that mimic God's plan for salvation.

Jesus Himself warned of imposters coming after him. Given the political climate and the knowledge of the timing of the Messiah it's not surprising that some imposters would appear just prior or even at the same time as Jesus. The mistake the imposters make is the same mistake made by many Jesus' disciples, in that they expected a political salvation from Roman rule. They then tried to enact such a revolt and they did die.

Why did he not re-gather his followers after rising from the dead, presumably in much greater strength after such a miracle, and lead another rebellion.
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  #7  
Old Nov 20, '09, 7:12 am
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MrZetterlund MrZetterlund is offline
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Default Re: The First Jesus?

I'm sure Simon the wonderful is just one of the many "messiahs" before and after the time of Jesus Christ (Yeshua in Hebrew.) Do not be fooled, many Jewish men looked at the chaos and opression around them brought on by the Roman Empire and tried to take on the title of Christ (Messiah.) Jesus wasn't a self-proclaimed messiah. I've noticed that not once did He call himself God in the gospel. But others did, such as the prophets and the spirit of Elijah (John the baptist.)
  #8  
Old Nov 20, '09, 7:16 am
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MrZetterlund MrZetterlund is offline
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Default Re: The First Jesus?

Quote:
Originally Posted by HopeInChrist View Post
Historians say the same thing about Osiris (or was is Horace?) of ancient Egypt. There are a lot of creation stories and resurrection stories (ie Africa, ancient egypt, ancient Mayans...). Jesus is the only one with credibility as the Messiah.This is being sensationalized because of the time of year. In a few months this will blow over like the Dan Brown Priory of Scion garbage. Don't let this junk get to you. Jesus is the only Messiah.

-Hope
I find Horus the wonderful questionable as well. I'm not sure if there's any Christian references that pre-date Christ. I read that Horus was the god of war, and the sun and moon were his eyes. And then he becomes another Jesus as I scroll down the page. Almost as though he can just usher himself into the first century God.
  #9  
Old Nov 20, '09, 8:52 pm
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ryecroft ryecroft is offline
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Default Re: The First Jesus?

I've been working on a masters in ecclesiastical history for some time and there are a couple of things that I see come up repetetively - one point I would like to mentione is that early Christianity was greatly a verbal heritage - it was passed down in parables in stories - someof the most often referred to stories, parables and teachings were written down. There are oftem many differences in the texts that were once verbal - just as the story about the monkey - the situation where there are three monkeys in a tree and they all see the same thing happen yet each and every one of them tells what happens differently and each one believes truely what he said he saw (i know monekeys can't tell us but you get the idea). I'm guessing that with this tablet (and it is really,really rarely that I hear about stone having ink writting on it- more often then not, it was more likely to have been writting on wax tablets which for obvious reasons over the yeard we don't have many from this era that still exist in good condition. But I digress. There are MANY MANY books that talk about Jesus - his life, Mary's life - life after the Crucifixtion - but many of the books were not allowed in the Catholic Bible or even the King James (of course some of these were specified as Apocrypha)- Some of those even have some pretty combelling information - one of my favourites talks about God being found everywhere - not just in a specific building- He says He can even be found in a piece of wood. For obvious reasons, the Church didn't want anything to do with this text but again, I digress. I guess my point is this -someone else (apparently in this particular writting) has claimed to be the messiah - (do you know how many people today think they're Jesus?) Jewish Teachings told them there was one coming - and with all the upheavals in society then, I believe that some of these people were extremely sincere. One thing that does bug me is that Jesus never says of Himself that he is the Messiah - at one point He says it is you who say I am - but that's as close as it gets. There are records of people being believed to be dead and not being - there are records even of people (not alot) but some being crucified believed to be dead and then wound up still being alive. We didn't exactly have the best medical doctors and tests back then so a person who didn't quite die could easily be seen as resurecting. Don't let this shake your faith - this happens all the time on some of these channels - a couple of years ago they found writting on a tomb - I believe they tried to say it was one of the apostles - turns out this person was a woman (or her name at least indicated this and the feminine of the word decon - ie deaconess on one and the female of presbyter was used. So lets wait and see before we believe some of this stuff - you can't believe everything on the tv now a days - it may look scientific or real but when put up to scrutiny, they find it has little or no bearing on the situation.
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  #10  
Old Nov 21, '09, 1:26 pm
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MrZetterlund MrZetterlund is offline
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Default Re: The First Jesus?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ryecroft View Post
There are MANY MANY books that talk about Jesus - his life, Mary's life - life after the Crucifixtion - but many of the books were not allowed in the Catholic Bible or even the King James (of course some of these were specified as Apocrypha)- Some of those even have some pretty combelling information - one of my favourites talks about God being found everywhere - not just in a specific building- He says He can even be found in a piece of wood. For obvious reasons, the Church didn't want anything to do with this text but again, I digress. I guess my point is this -someone else (apparently in this particular writting) has claimed to be the messiah - (do you know how many people today think they're Jesus?) Jewish Teachings told them there was one coming - and with all the upheavals in society then, I believe that some of these people were extremely sincere. One thing that does bug me is that Jesus never says of Himself that he is the Messiah - at one point He says it is you who say I am - but that's as close as it gets. There are records of people being believed to be dead and not being - there are records even of people (not alot) but some being crucified believed to be dead and then wound up still being alive. We didn't exactly have the best medical doctors and tests back then so a person who didn't quite die could easily be seen as resurecting. Don't let this shake your faith - this happens all the time on some of these channels - a couple of years ago they found writting on a tomb - I believe they tried to say it was one of the apostles - turns out this person was a woman (or her name at least indicated this and the feminine of the word decon - ie deaconess on one and the female of presbyter was used. So lets wait and see before we believe some of this stuff - you can't believe everything on the tv now a days - it may look scientific or real but when put up to scrutiny, they find it has little or no bearing on the situation.
God Bless
Rye
If I may tack on to your post, whan arguing with Muslim as to whether or not Jesus was God I usually ask, "Why do you find the claim more creditable coming from a man making a claim for himself, rather than an accusation made from a higher source? (such as prophets, and God.)"
Anyway, to also tack onto the medical part of this post. Do you remember the part in the gospel when Christ was peirced with a sphere? And He blead both blood and water? That according to scientists is a sure fire way to determine if someone is dead or not. Something about how the water forms to your chest when you die or something?
I don't know, I'm not much of a scientist.
  #11  
Old Nov 21, '09, 2:31 pm
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Default Re: The First Jesus?

I belive in the historical God-Man Jesus Christ born of the Virgin Mary taught by the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church not becuse the Pope or the church in general tells me so but becuse the Holy Spirit of God who lives in me tells me it is the TRUTH and no amount of anti-christian propaganda will ever convice me different. I'd rather belive the all knowing God living in my soul than a bunch of over educated athists, but thats just me.
  #12  
Old Nov 21, '09, 3:32 pm
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Originally Posted by jpk1313 View Post
I belive in the historical God-Man Jesus Christ born of the Virgin Mary taught by the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church not becuse the Pope or the church in general tells me so but becuse the Holy Spirit of God who lives in me tells me it is the TRUTH and no amount of anti-christian propaganda will ever convice me different. I'd rather belive the all knowing God living in my soul than a bunch of over educated athists, but thats just me.
I find alot of them fullfill this scripture:
"the fool has no delight in understanding, but only in expressing his own opinion."
Proverbs 10:18

They'll even dig up opinions from way back then to support their own! Anything that doesn't share the delight of their scepticism deserves no reliability. (in accordance to them.)
  #13  
Old Nov 24, '09, 3:48 am
Pons Pons is offline
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Default Re: The First Jesus?

Quote:
* The stone is controversial because it could speak of a Messiah who will rise from the dead after three days, based on line 80, which leading Messianic scholar Dr. Israel Knohl has read as “by three days live.”
* If this reading were accurate, it would imply that the idea of a Messiah who rises from the dead after three days predates the time of Christ — providing a missing link between Judaism and Christianity, since it suggests Jesus’ death and resurrection were not unique.
Nowhere is it said in your notes that this Simon fellow rose from the dead or that he was believed to. That's some twisting of words there. All it shows, if it is true, is that "the idea of a Messiah who rises from the dead after three days predates the time of Christ". And so what if it did? Some others may have talked the talk but only one could walk the walk.
  #14  
Old Nov 24, '09, 4:05 am
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Default Re: The First Jesus?

Quote:
Originally Posted by thistle View Post
Why does it shake you? Is your faith so weak that silly NatGeo programs which appear each year prior to Christmas and Easter cause you doubts?
Which is why I have an extensive DVD collection so I don't have to watch the propaganda on cable.
  #15  
Old Dec 21, '10, 2:46 pm
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Default Re: The First Jesus?

I signed up for this. I just now saw this show on the History channel. It is also dated 2010 so I don't understand how the exact show was on a year earlier on a different channel?

That is beside the point though. The atheist in the show talks about the text being a "smoking gun" to supposedly prove that Jesus was "not" the Son of God, as another atheist states later on in the show.

The scroll they found is thought to have been made by the same people who made the dead sea scrolls from my short research on the subject. So why would these people talk about Gabriel telling Simon of Peraea to rise from the dead after 3 days? Did that many Jews really believe he was the Messiah?

Did anybody recently see this? It is very disturbing to me that a channel that is on basic cable and being viewed by millions of people continues to wage war against Christianity. How many people who are on the fence today were swayed by the viewing of this show? Probably hundreds of thousands.

This subject needs to be discussed at length because it is the Ace of Spades of "proof" that non Christians have now against Jesus being the Son of God.

When I got here I couldn't believe this was such a short discussion.
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