US Episcopal Church elects Lesbian Bishop

[gurneyhalleck1]

Thanks for the post and thread but the only thing you said that made me do a double-take was "and of all places Los Angeles?" Does a homosexual appointment in LA surprise you? I was born in Long Beach, suberb of Los Angeles, and raised in California (central) all my life. Let me assure you that LA is liberaltown USA. It is chuck-full of gays, lesbians, and sexual deviants. There are far far far more homosexuals in Los Angeles County anyday than San Francisco, which is famous for its gaydom. If you go through Long Beach now there are gay pride parades, men walking holding hands all over the place, signs, banners, and encouragement for the gay lifestyle. I'm not a bit surprised by any of this. In LA or SF, I wouldn't be surprised if a Klingon or an Ewok were ordained in the Episcopal Church!

Originally Posted by bkovacs

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/8397707.stm

And of all places LosAngeles.

Maybe now more Anglicans will accept the Popes invitation or join the Orthodox Western Rite..

[crm114]

Alex111,

Dogma is one good reason to come over. Another might be the sacraments. But one thing at a time!

There are many RC parishes that have communion rails and reverent Masses. It is too bad that many sloppy practices have lived on since the 70s. But eventually they will die out, along with the priests of the Now Generation, and for the very reason why you don't like them -- they do not meet the spiritual needs of the people!

Finally, RCIA is supposed to be reserved for the unbaptised. As an Episopalian, you have valid baptism and you already know much of what is required to make an informed profession of faith. If your needs are being well served in RCIA, then that is great. If not, please do not get discouraged and go away. Instead, go to your pastor and ask to be received in a manner that is consistent with your preparation and your pastoral need.

[CatholicZ09]

If I was in one of those churches, I'd be turning Catholic FAST!

[Alex111]

Originally Posted by crm114

Alex111,

Dogma is one good reason to come over. Another might be the sacraments. But one thing at a time!

There are many RC parishes that have communion rails and reverent Masses. It is too bad that many sloppy practices have lived on since the 70s. But eventually they will die out, along with the priests of the Now Generation, and for the very reason why you don't like them -- they do not meet the spiritual needs of the people!

Yes, I'm hoping that's true. The mass at the parish where I'm in RCIA is ok (well, other than Sunday evenings when they have the electric bass and drums but I don't attend those)...but there is a Traditional Latin Mass in my area, and hopefully someday there will be an Anglican Use Mass too.

Originally Posted by crm114

Finally, RCIA is supposed to be reserved for the unbaptised. As an Episopalian, you have valid baptism and you already know much of what is required to make an informed profession of faith. If your needs are being well served in RCIA, then that is great. If not, please do not get discouraged and go away. Instead, go to your pastor and ask to be received in a manner that is consistent with your preparation and your pastoral need.

To some extent I'm learning more from listening to Catholic radio and reading than from RCIA; the main teacher is way liberal and bugs me. But, that being said, there are a couple other teachers, and also people who've been Catholic a long time and are taking the class to learn more and also to help out us newbies, and they are helpful and reassuring. I may want to do take RCIA again in that role, or maybe even assist the teachers, someday in the future.

[gurneyhalleck1]

But the funny thing is...the Episcopal Church has been full of nutcases and bizarre antics for years! Spong and the loons with his mindset have had plenty of breathing room and have dominated the scene for years. The Anglicans that broke off from TEC back in the mid 70's could see the forest for the trees with women's ordination and it took others longer to really see what TEC stands for. By the 90's, the Episcopal Church was full-on quasi-Christian and by the new millenium they had Gene Robinson and friends. If people couldn't bail by the time Geney came along, they must have been in la la land. And if Katharine Jefforts-Schiori, the hyphenated one, didn't scare them off, then nothing will! Most serious folks who care about orthodoxy, Christianity, and truth left long ago. It shouldn't take much more to convince. There are people even here in CAF who would stay Episcopal even if they started ordaining gerbals and Elvis impersonators.

Originally Posted by CatholicZ09

If I was in one of those churches, I'd be turning Catholic FAST!

[Rupertbear]

Speaking as an ex-Anglican; the issue of women's ordination - serious though it is - has somewhat overshadowed the even more crucial issue at stake for both Protestants and Catholics, which is that of authority. In today's fractured world the Church needs to speak with both a united voice and unquestioned authority. Only the Holy Father, successor of St Peter (something many Protestants already acknowledge) can possibly do this. The apparent moral breakdown in the Episcopal Church (of which I was once a member) is very saddening, though they do not presumably see it that way. Here in England the Anglican Church will soon have women bishops - whether any of them will be lesbians or not remains to be seen. The Pope's offer has come at the right time and for the right reasons. As the Holy Father has said, it is in response to the requests of thousands of Anglicans themselves. There are and have always been many good people in Anglicanism, who naturally feel very concerned. Changing churches is never easy, and the Pope has rightly recognized this. Let us all, together with our other Christian brothers and sisters, continue to pray for the day when we can all come to the altar of Jesus Christ as one fellowship, under the headship of the one Shepherd.

[Daedelus76]

Originally Posted by Contra Mundum

I've been following these Anglican agonies so nothing surprises me anymore. I just wonder what exactly makes them Christian. They seem to embrace all the secular ideologies and values out there in order to be in step with the times. I wonder how long these churches will last and at what point they will drop the word 'Christian' from their name.

In fairness, not all Episcopalians are like that. I am a member of an online Anglican community that has some Episcopalians, and some ex-Episcopalians who are now ACNA/Continuing. True, some are very weak on what exactly they do believe, but others are hardly liberal. And I know some Episcopalian clergy (even female clergy) who absolutely don't believe that praying to God is little better than praying to garden faries. Many have a great deal of wisdom and men could learn something from them. I'm ambivalent about women's ordination, but absolutely against any attitude that dehumanizes women or belittles their voice. I also reject the idea that a woman couldn't act in persona Christi if it somehow implies that women do not have the same human nature as men.

Originally Posted by crm114

Alex111,
Dogma is one good reason to come over. Another might be the sacraments. But one thing at a time!

An Orthodox friend knows I'm concerned about Christian unity, and the direction of the Anglican world (and my much less evangelical leanings), but he's cautioned me about thinking the Eucharist is "valid" or "invalid" simply because one has a bishop called Pope in charge. He also doesn't think Christian liturgy can be reduced to the Eucharist, so for him that's not a good reason to convert.

I know from reading a few personal experiences of conversion, valid sacraments are often not the reason people convert, and I've read a few cases of people who convert for that reason, who are disappointed. If I become Roman Catholic, it will not be over the sacraments. I also believe the Vatican's former claims that Anglican Holy Orders are "null and void", rests on a debatable reading of history, since Roman Catholics have absorbed Eastern groups without issues like that. It just smacks of triumphalism to say that Anglican sacraments are invalid.

There are many RC parishes that have communion rails and reverent Masses. It is too bad that many sloppy practices have lived on since the 70s.

Finally, RCIA is supposed to be reserved for the unbaptised. As an Episopalian, you have valid baptism and you already know much of what is required to make an informed profession of faith.

It's good to know that I wouldn't necessarily have to go through RCIA courses. I already know alot about Catholic theology. At most I'd want to talk to a priest, I believe.

OTOH, Roman Catholic traditionalist are often the most irritating element of Roman Catholicism (and actually I don't find the modern Roman Catholic mass to be irreverent at all). Some of them make me understand why the Latitudinalism of Anglicanism can be so attractive, or why some of the Reformers theology was a refreshing change from a picayune mindset. You can't reduce the validity of worship to altar rails and which direction the altar faces.

[crm114]

[quote=Daedelus76;6128105] ...An Orthodox friend knows I'm concerned about Christian unity, and the direction of the Anglican world (and my much less evangelical leanings), but he's cautioned me about thinking the Eucharist is "valid" or "invalid" simply because one has a bishop called Pope in charge. ...I also believe the Vatican's former claims that Anglican Holy Orders are "null and void", rests on a debatable reading of history, since Roman Catholics have absorbed Eastern groups without issues like that. It just smacks of triumphalism to say that Anglican sacraments are invalid...
[quote]

Actually, Leo said "absolutely null and utterly void." And he gave his reasons. The document is called Apostolica Curae. It is not accepted universally outside the Catholic Church, but the Anglican bishops took it seriously at the time and sought to remedy the deficiency. Consequently some now argue that, subsequent to Apostolicae Curae, the participation of Old Catholic bishops in Anglican episcopal ordinations ("The Dutch Touch") restored validity to the Anglican lines of succession.

Eastern orders and sacraments have never been questioned.The Eastern Churches never had a Reformation. Eastern sacraments are absolutely valid.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Daedelus76

It's good to know that I wouldn't necessarily have to go through RCIA courses. I already know alot about Catholic theology. At most I'd want to talk to a priest, I believe.

Actually, you do have to go through RCIA to become Catholic. Everyone does, baptized or not. Your baptism is valid if it's Trinitarian, but before Confirmation the Church has to assure that each new member knows at least the basics about the Catholic faith, and RCIA is the way to ensure that.

The thing is that there's a longer program for people who have never been baptized. I think it used to be 3 years long. I don't know if that's the case. It's for people who were brought up or grew up non-Christian. But then there's a much smaller program, the normal RCIA, which only lasts a few months, for non-Catholic Christians entering the Church. You still have to go through that RCIA, though.

[gepnav]

Originally Posted by Alex111

The Episcopalian cathedral I used to attend has Enneagram workshops and Goddess retreats; and the female "priests" in their sermons quoted Gloria Steinem and Hindu scriptures. Nothing would surprize me. The religion practiced and preached by the leadership of The Episcopal Church is postmodernism, feminism, and leftist secular state-worship. This is one of the reasons I'm in RCIA, though I wish Roman Catholic liturgy was more formal and had communion rails.

Yes, great point. State worship. Organization worship in this case. Same thing happening in the Presbyterian Church (USA), my benighted denomination, which is expending its dwindling resources in trying to keep congregations from climbing over the Berlin Wall to escape to Christendom.

Someone asked how TEC is even Christian. Only in the social, Christians-as-nice-people sense. They cling to feelings they used to get in church back when it was Christian, and then expect that newcomers will flock to them. Why? Join a camera club, play bridge, do good through Kiwanis. It's why the old-line, liberal Protestant sects are drying up and blowing away.

The Pope has done a great thing in extending a hand to the Anglicans and Episcopalians who have had enough worship of an organization and not enough of Christ.

[crm114]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

Actually, you do have to go through RCIA to become Catholic. Everyone does, baptized or not. Your baptism is valid if it's Trinitarian, but before Confirmation the Church has to assure that each new member knows at least the basics about the Catholic faith, and RCIA is the way to ensure that. ...

That may be the practice in your diocese, but it is not universal.

RCIA is for catechumens, not for members. That is to say, its purpose is "Christian Initiation."

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by crm114

That may be the practice in your diocese, but it is not universal.

RCIA is for catechumens, not for members. That is to say, its purpose is "Christian Initiation."

I recommend the person entering the Church ask his local priest about the practice.

[crm114]

Sure. I always refer inquirers to our parish clergy. In some cases, the inquirer needs a full series of prep classes. In other cases, the inquirer is well catechized and is ready to make a profession of faith. And on quite a few occasions, the inquirer is a Catholic who has been away from the sacraments for awhile. In that case all that is required is confession. Of course in those cases, too, I refer them to a priest, as you suggest!

I don't sort them out, that is the clergy's job. But here is the important point: each inquirer is treated according to his individual pastoral needs. Receiving people into the Church is not a one-size-fits-all proposition!

[Lief Erikson]

Makes sense to me . I'm glad we have priests who know who should be where, for their education and discernment, and can help us out. Priests are so wonderful.