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  #31  
Old Feb 1, '10, 7:02 am
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Stylites Stylites is offline
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Default Re: Bishop Hubbard approves free distribution of needles to drug abusers [CWN]

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Originally Posted by H Opey View Post
No, I am not saying it would be better to have more victims to HIV than violent crimes, just that this is not going to cure anything and does not seem compatible with what we teach.

Sorry, but your clarification didn't help much to clear up the matter of your earlier statement regarding violent crime victims. Have a nice day.


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  #32  
Old Feb 1, '10, 7:22 am
H Opey H Opey is offline
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Default Re: Bishop Hubbard approves free distribution of needles to drug abusers [CWN]

Illicit drug users are 9 times more likely to be arrested on assault charges than non drug users.

16 times more to be arrested on larceny or theft.

The facts are there regarding a connection between violent crimes/illicit drug use.

You can do a search and find this out. This is part of the drug problem.

I hope you have a nice day too.
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  #33  
Old Feb 1, '10, 8:11 am
H Opey H Opey is offline
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Default Re: Bishop Hubbard approves free distribution of needles to drug abusers [CWN]

Here is a link to an article I thought was appropriate.
"Safe Injection Sites" and Tackling IV Drug Abuse
FATHER TADEUSZ PACHOLCZYK, PH.D.


While drug addiction certainly puts a major dent in human freedom, it would be false to conclude that an addict can't make choices. The only reason there is any hope left for an addict is because he still has a small and diminishing space of freedom that he can act on, allowing him to decide whether or not to begin a new journey. He can choose to take the first step along the road leading away from addiction towards rehabilitation. Our public strategy for dealing with drug addiction must always show great sensitivity towards that tiny space of freedom that remains in each individual struggling with addiction. After all, it is precisely this freedom that sets us apart from our animal counterparts. Public policy should not contribute to shrinking that space of freedom even further through approaches that enable destructive behaviors and greater addiction.
....


This contradiction may be seen very clearly in what our society has learned about treating alcoholism. Most of us have seen -- even among our families and neighbors -- how destructive the addiction to alcohol can be. Not only can it ravage a person's life, but it can also destroy their family, lead to loss of employment, and, even, in some cases, endanger the lives of others through drunken fits or drunken driving. We've also seen how many alcoholics have been helped by twelve step programs like Alcoholics Anonymous, where the accumulated wisdom of millions of former addicts recognizes clearly that the only way they can conquer their addiction is through supporting each other never to have another drink. Imagine that, instead of supporting programs like AA and alcoholic rehabilitation centers, a government were to establish bars where alcoholics could come to get drunk, by providing clean glasses, furniture and bathrooms, healthy hors d'oeuvres and munchies, and police protection so that they couldn't be robbed in dark alleys. Would any of us really think that this would be promoting their rehabilitation? Those who struggle with substance abuse are deserving of public policy initiatives that rehabilitate rather than enable the addicted individual.
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  #34  
Old Feb 1, '10, 8:25 am
Tigg Tigg is offline
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Default Re: Bishop Hubbard approves free distribution of needles to drug abusers [CWN]

O Shepherds of Israel......where have you gone?
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  #35  
Old Feb 1, '10, 8:26 am
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Stylites Stylites is offline
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Default Re: Bishop Hubbard approves free distribution of needles to drug abusers [CWN]

Quote:
Originally Posted by H Opey View Post
Illicit drug users are 9 times more likely to be arrested on assault charges than non drug users.

16 times more to be arrested on larceny or theft.

The facts are there regarding a connection between violent crimes/illicit drug use.

You can do a search and find this out. This is part of the drug problem.

I hope you have a nice day too.
Thanks for the input. I still don't see how helping to curtail a deadly disease somehow contributes to violent crime.


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  #36  
Old Feb 1, '10, 8:38 am
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Stylites Stylites is offline
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Default Re: Bishop Hubbard approves free distribution of needles to drug abusers [CWN]

Quote:
Originally Posted by H Opey View Post
Public policy should not contribute to shrinking that space of freedom even further through approaches that enable destructive behaviors and greater addiction.
Good point about enabling addiction. However, I would rather that public policy works to reduce harm at the risk of enabling an addiction, since the results of seeking to enforce a change in behavior via violent societal sanctions ends up doing more harm than good. Where is the 'freedom' in an early and painful death? How is it "not contributing to the shrinking space of freedom" to throw addicts in jail?


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Who wants to see God? Cry to the Lord with an intensely yearning heart and you will certainly see Him. People shed jugs of tears for money, wife, and children. But if they would weep for God for only one day they would surely see Him.
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  #37  
Old Feb 1, '10, 8:40 am
H Opey H Opey is offline
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Default Re: Bishop Hubbard approves free distribution of needles to drug abusers [CWN]

Well, I am not for throwing them necessarily in jail, but it would depend on the whole circumstance.
But what I would like to see regarding Catholic's helping are more facilities to help them overcome addiction.

Another appropriate link.
St Vincent's drug injecting rooms: 'monumental spiritual blindness'
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  #38  
Old Feb 1, '10, 9:29 am
Beau Ouiville Beau Ouiville is offline
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Default Re: Bishop Hubbard approves free distribution of needles to drug abusers [CWN]

People seem to ignore that this is a needle exchange program. What the sponsors do is lessen the danger in an instrumentality which may be used by an addict.

The program is not designed to enable or assist someone to take drugs.
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  #39  
Old Feb 1, '10, 1:05 pm
NewEnglandPriest NewEnglandPriest is offline
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Default Re: Bishop Hubbard approves free distribution of needles to drug abusers [CWN]

I'm not sure how this enables the doing of drugs. They already have a needle they can use, its simply a matter of giving them a clean one. I highly doubt a drug addict is going to stay on the drug simply because they can get a clean needle today but if they were stuck with a dirty one would have quit cold turkey.

I would compare needle exchange to a kind of "designated driver's" cab company. By giving people easy access to a ride home are they encouraging drunkenness or are they merely attempting to mitigate the dangers to society posed by the choices of others?

A condom, on the other hand, is indeed an outright and direct temptation to have immoral sexual contact.
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  #40  
Old Feb 1, '10, 1:32 pm
unafraid unafraid is offline
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Default Re: Bishop Hubbard approves free distribution of needles to drug abusers [CWN]

This is such complex and confusing topic. The only way I was able to formulate my own view of this was to look at it subjectively. If my own brother or sister were IV drug addicts and supplying them with clean needles might prolong their lives, would I personally supply them? Absolutely. So, since I consider all of these poor souls to be my brothers and sisters in the broader sense, I approve of what the Bishop is doing in this regard. Still, it is a difficult moral question.
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  #41  
Old Feb 1, '10, 1:41 pm
JaMc JaMc is offline
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Default Re: Bishop Hubbard approves free distribution of needles to drug abusers [CWN]

I'm not sure off hand what the stats are on the "harm reduction" model regarding drug policy, but I don't believe it has proved successful.

Personally, I have mixed feelings on the matter. On the one hand, they are addicted anyway, and are going to continue to use drugs until they can control their addiction, clean or dirty needles, so I can see how the charitably minded might want to prevent what's already bad enough from getting worse.

On the other hand, there's the whole "moral hazard" argument that, by making drug use less dangerous, it will encourage more drug use. Also, it does fail to address the underlying problem, as a poster above said, like giving boxing gloves to wife-beaters.

One must also take into account that addicts engage in other harmful behavior in addition to (or because of) their drug use, which, in a sense, diminishes any positive effects a needle exchange program may have.
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  #42  
Old Feb 1, '10, 1:52 pm
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Stylites Stylites is offline
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Default Re: Bishop Hubbard approves free distribution of needles to drug abusers [CWN]

Quote:
Originally Posted by JaMc View Post
I'm not sure off hand what the stats are on the "harm reduction" model regarding drug policy, but I don't believe it has proved successful.

Personally, I have mixed feelings on the matter. On the one hand, they are addicted anyway, and are going to continue to use drugs until they can control their addiction, clean or dirty needles, so I can see how the charitably minded might want to prevent what's already bad enough from getting worse.

On the other hand, there's the whole "moral hazard" argument that, by making drug use less dangerous, it will encourage more drug use. Also, it does fail to address the underlying problem, as a poster above said, like giving boxing gloves to wife-beaters.

One must also take into account that addicts engage in other harmful behavior in addition to (or because of) their drug use, which, in a sense, diminishes any positive effects a needle exchange program may have.
When you weight the immediate risks of contracting a deadly virus versus the 'woulda-coulda-shoulda' hopeless gameplay of what might be or never be, it's hard to see them being equal.


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Who wants to see God? Cry to the Lord with an intensely yearning heart and you will certainly see Him. People shed jugs of tears for money, wife, and children. But if they would weep for God for only one day they would surely see Him.
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  #43  
Old Feb 1, '10, 2:32 pm
H Opey H Opey is offline
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Default Re: Bishop Hubbard approves free distribution of needles to drug abusers [CWN]

I really doubt that if someone comes to their van without a needle that they would not give them a clean one.

It is still direct cooperation with something that we hold as intrinsically evil, illicit use of drugs.

Also, to the one that would give their own family member clean needles if it would help...I have been there and done that with my own brother. It takes tough love. It takes saying "NO" in spite of being called names, stolen from and everything else that comes with this addiction. It is terrible. It is horrible. And it wears on those that are trying to care for them but if you stick it out, it can work.
He knew all the stats and if push came to shove, he would use a dirty needle - the high outweighed the risk at that time.
Luckily he is clean now and has been for almost 3 years. It took a lot and he will give all the credit to God - which he is right. But he is also thankful that we stayed firm.

His immortal soul is more important than his body. He has health problems and may not live as long as I do, God only knows, but he is free now from that addiction.

It is false compassion to give out or exchange these needles.
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  #44  
Old Feb 1, '10, 2:50 pm
NewEnglandPriest NewEnglandPriest is offline
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Default Re: Bishop Hubbard approves free distribution of needles to drug abusers [CWN]

Quote:
Originally Posted by H Opey View Post
He knew all the stats and if push came to shove, he would use a dirty needle - the high outweighed the risk at that time.
I think that's the point of those who favor needle exchange...
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  #45  
Old Feb 1, '10, 4:04 pm
Tigg Tigg is offline
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Default Re: Bishop Hubbard approves free distribution of needles to drug abusers [CWN]

To me, the issue is a very simple one and this thread has deeply disturbed me.

Does not the bishop's decision presuppose that the Grace of God is insufficient to save a person from addiction? Any counselor, any spiritual director or medical doctor will agree that a person under chemical influence does not possess full capacity of his soul and can neither exercise prudential judgment or free will. Clean needle or not, he will be unable to cry out to his God from the depths of his heart for deliverance.

Any potential disease is secondary….what does it profit a man if he gains the whole world, but loses his soul?
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