Pervasive 'non-campaign' fractured rules of secrecy (Greeley) - Page 6

**fix** · #76 Apr 26, '05, 1:20 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brad

I understand I'm in the heavy minority here (I read all the posts on that thread) but I do not believe that God would allow someone in a divinely instituted office that has supreme authority over the Church and supreme power in the care of souls that He did not want in there. Even if the Pope was "bad", I maintain that God wanted him in there at that time. I am not saying the Holy Spirit writes a note to the Cardinals. I'm saying that throught the prayers of the faithful and the saints, God's will is done. The Pope selected IS the one that He wants.

On further note, I find in incredibly scandalous that the vast majority of the very faithful would believe otherwise. The implications of believing otherwise are nothing short of a radical undermining of the papacy when and if a Pope is selected that the people do not like.

God allows the consecration with a "bad" priest. God allows the Pope to be selected with "bad" cardinals.

I still think some of this may be communication issues. Let's take an example. Let's say God would have picked person A to be Pope. However, the cardinals do not pray very well and the Christians are very wicked and all are undeserving of persona A. So God says we get person B instead. Not his first choice but still his choice. And the faithful MUST believe this, otherwise any single one of us could say Pope Benedict XVI is not the Pope and still be faithful Catholics. Yikes!

The Pope would still be valid, but it may be that God's permitting will that allowed it and not His ordaining will.

Brad · #77 Apr 26, '05, 1:45 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by fix

The Pope would still be valid, but it may be that God's permitting will that allowed it and not His ordaining will.

So then God's will is done either way. This then should be a qualifier for anyone that says the Holy Spirit did not select the Pope. God's will is that this person be Pope at this time.

chicago · #78 Apr 26, '05, 1:51 pm

Brad,

Admittedly, some will try to do whatever they can to dismiss or undermine the value of the choice in pope. Though, I would argue that this happens on both sides.. not merely liberals. Plenty of conservative Catholics had some real problems with John Paul, for instance, and would have questioned whether he was truly the Spirit's man. In this sense, I do think that there is something to what Greeley says in that we need to be careful about how we claim the Spirit's ordination of choice to serve our own interests.

I don't think that anyone would deny that the Spirit confirms the pope as true, a witness to unity of the college of bishops and thereby the faith, and offers the Church His protection from the pope infallibly defining in error. Further, God always offers the special grace of state for a person in any particular position to fulfill their obligations. However, I just don't know that we can necessarily say that whoever is picked is handpicked by the Lord. Confirmed by God in his position, yes. And in that sense Willed and I suppose it could be said chosen through human instruments of the Church. But not necessarily positively ordained. Nor can we necessarily know that the pope is acting in Spirit inspired ways more generally just because he is the Vicar of Christ.

chicago · #79 Apr 26, '05, 2:00 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brad

So then God's will is done either way. This then should be a qualifier for anyone that says the Holy Spirit did not select the Pope. God's will is that this person be Pope at this time.

Yes. I don't think anyone is debating this. Including the likes of Fr. Greeley.

Rather, some are merely noting that perhaps we shouldn't be so quick to claim the Spirit's special positive influence and guidance in certain cases just because we partiularly like some pope. Afterall, there have been plenty of popes who history would suggest haven't been particularly well chosen or guided by the Spirit if that were the case.

Brad · #80 Apr 27, '05, 9:09 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by chicago

Yes. I don't think anyone is debating this. Including the likes of Fr. Greeley.

Rather, some are merely noting that perhaps we shouldn't be so quick to claim the Spirit's special positive influence and guidance in certain cases just because we partiularly like some pope. Afterall, there have been plenty of popes who history would suggest haven't been particularly well chosen or guided by the Spirit if that were the case.

I think Greeley does have an agenda to undermine the authority of the papacy. It is a largely "hidden" agenda, but an effective agenda just the same. Look at the masses of Catholics that dissent from or question the authority of the Church.

I don't think his motives are guided by the Holy Spirit. Guided by SOME spirit for sure but not the Holy Spirit. I know a great deal about the line of thinking of some of these priests, the underlying principles of theosophany, relatvism, eastern religions etc. etc. etc. It is nauseating. Focus on Jesus Christ, the God incarnate.

Zachary · #81 Apr 27, '05, 10:10 am

Pure trash - all he says is "If"...if this and if that. Plus, if he thinks the media had any effect on the cardinals, he's a fool.

**Ani Ibi** · #82 Apr 27, '05, 1:04 pm

Brief hijack: American Catholic university president to accept honorary doctorate alongside abortionist. Pro-life protest:

http://forums.catholic.com/showthrea...185#post622185

Thank you. Back to thread. Ani.

Fitz · #83 Apr 27, '05, 7:16 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brad

I think Greeley does have an agenda to undermine the authority of the papacy. It is a largely "hidden" agenda, but an effective agenda just the same. Look at the masses of Catholics that dissent from or question the authority of the Church.

I don't think his motives are guided by the Holy Spirit. Guided by SOME spirit for sure but not the Holy Spirit. I know a great deal about the line of thinking of some of these priests, the underlying principles of theosophany, relatvism, eastern religions etc. etc. etc. It is nauseating. Focus on Jesus Christ, the God incarnate.

I have listened to Relevant Radio several times this week and callers have called in to ask the visiting priests about a certain priest/writer that has a syndicated column in Chicago. They went on to complain about all his opinions that are so negative. The priests suggested calling or notifying the Bishop of his diocese (Cardinal Frances George) if they are upset. I thnk many are real upset with him right about now for this column especially when he said the Holy Spirit did not choose the Pope.

Many are tired of his attitude, and access to the press and his very clear disrespect for the Catholic Church even though he is a priest. It looks absolutely terrible to the people that aren't Catholic too.

chicago · #84 Apr 28, '05, 3:26 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz

The priests suggested calling or notifying the Bishop of his diocese (Cardinal Frances George) if they are upset.

Realistically, I don't think that there is much (practically speaking) which the cardinal would be able to do in response other than to teach clearly himself. I mean, it isn't like he doesn't know about the articles or find Greeley frustrating at times. (Though somehow I'd bet that he's also willing to thoughtfully find the value in what might be said, while still critiquing it.) Frankly, I think a lot of time is wasted on getting frustrated and complaining rather than just finding positive ways to combat these sorts of probelms with good and effective steps to build up the Church. Light a candle rather than curse the darkness. It would be nice to hear the priests recommend some genuinely positive steps instead, then. "Call the bishop" is little more than an easy way to just pass the buck and not really offer anything of value.

chicago · #85 Apr 28, '05, 3:35 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brad

I think Greeley does have an agenda to undermine the authority of the papacy. It is a largely "hidden" agenda, but an effective agenda just the same. Look at the masses of Catholics that dissent from or question the authority of the Church.

I don't know that I would entirely argue with that. Given, there is an agenda and a perspective which Greeley and his likes are trying to promote. That said, I still don't believe he would deny the validity of this papacy. He isn't a sedevacantist. He'd merely complain about the Church staying in the "dark ages".

Quote:

I don't think his motives are guided by the Holy Spirit. Guided by SOME spirit for sure but not the Holy Spirit. I know a great deal about the line of thinking of some of these priests, the underlying principles of theosophany, relatvism, eastern religions etc. etc. etc. It is nauseating. Focus on Jesus Christ, the God incarnate.

True and undoubtedly. Though, in his case, I don't think that as much of the thinking you note (which has influenced and guided not a few) is necessarily what is motivating him. Fr. Greeley basically just has a case of Vatican II-aholism, having become drunk on the openness and freedoms along with winds of change to an extreme. It doesn't help that the presbyterate had to deal with some very real problems following it under Cardinal Cody. But, then Chicago priests are historically trend setters who like their opportunity for creativity and opportunity.