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  #211  
Old Feb 15, '10, 6:37 pm
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MyRdmrLvs MyRdmrLvs is offline
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Default Re: Jehovah's Witnesses

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vasian View Post
Let me be clear here as to my own opinion about individuals in the WTS or any other of these sorts of religions... I will not label them as non-Christians.
Only our Lord Jesus Christ does such judging.
I have my opinions about the "organization" but i will not judge individuals.
I have agonized for the two elderly ladies we studied with, they were so determined to serve Jesus. We really love them.
  #212  
Old Feb 15, '10, 6:43 pm
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Default Re: Jehovah's Witnesses

[quote=dj dave;6289055]
Quote:
Originally Posted by MyRdmrLvs[I
I stumped them over and over then I proved that the WT was out right deceiving them. I wished I had bought the book but it was $40 so they could have seen it with their own eyes but Im not sure that would have helped. one thing I noticed about the WT is that they are very repetitive


...Go ahead, make my day! Give me an example where you think you proved them wrong.
I feel a little fiesty.

why dont you start with the points Ive made about sighting a source as if it supports your doctrine when in fact it clearly contradicts it. why would Gods faithful servant LIE!
  #213  
Old Feb 15, '10, 11:36 pm
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Rolltide Rolltide is offline
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Default Re: Jehovah's Witnesses

Quote:
Originally Posted by Regardless View Post
I would like to comment!
(Though you might regret asking)
Not at all. I'm always glad to take your comments.

Quote:
My good Rolltide!
It was superb. All correct info I am sure,
Thank you.

Quote:
except Except you left out the 95% of JWs history that might make them look respectable! Haha! (I wonder why)

Ive thought a lot about your professional history lesson in the last week.
I once read a book on World War II. The writer often went into great detail on the murder of particular groups of Jews by the Nazis, But the entire Allied invasion of Normandy (the biggest sea invasion in history) was summed up in just over a page!

For some reason your history lesson reminded me of that.
Hmmmm.... interesting. You do realize that just like economists, historians have to focus on the "macro" and the "micro". A book that goes into great detail on the murder of particular groups of Jews by the Nazis has an important historical purpose. A book like William Sheridan Allen's "The Nazi Seizure of Power: The Experience of a Single German Town, 1922-1945" can demonstrate the social factors that allowed Nazi propaganda to work on the local population, and why Germans were willing to look the other way, or simply didn't resist actions they thought were wrong. This book is a classic in the field, but it in NO WAY purports to be a study of the entire war. Rather, it gives a snapshot of a particular example that serves historians, in combination with other examples, to give a more complete understanding of the bigger picture. Of course, that bigger picture is reserved for other works. Now, with my post, I chose to focus on the shaky theological development of the Jehovah's Witnesses, rather than get bogged down in any other aspects of the organization.

Quote:
I see points 1 10 (of 12) were all before the Jehovahs Witnesses were called Jehovahs Witnesses. 83% of their history before 1925? They became Jehovahs witnesses in 1931 my good historian!
(But this period you focus on has the best ammo for a critic with many wrong expectations of Russell and Rutherford about the end. Cool.)
So... Russell and Rutherford were not "Jehovah's Witnesses" then? Does that mean that the Jehovah's Witnesses disregard everything that happened before 1931? Was this, or was this not, the same organization? What about the Watchtower? It was around before 1931.

Are you also saying that the Jehovah's Witnesses are a religion that has a doctrine that has only *really* been understood for about 79 years out of the last 2000? How had this radical new understanding been simply overlooked for so long?

Quote:
Wikipedia quotes: "Viewed globally, this persecution has been so persistent and of such an intensity that it would not be inaccurate to regard Jehovah's witnesses as the most persecuted religion of the twentieth century".
Wow, so, the Jehovah's Witnesses were persecuted globally in the twentieth century more than the Jews? I realize that Jehovah's Witnesses were killed in death camps (as were Catholics, like St. Maximilian Kolbe), but WHICH religious group was the MAIN target? Come on...

Quote:
You seem to have skipped any mention of that. Why? (perhaps you were away from history class the day the most persecuted religion in the 20th century was discussed )
Nope, I teach the history of Nazi Germany. I've been to Dachau. One of the professors I studied under even was a historical consultant on Schindler's List.

Quote:
Or is it because Jesus predicted his followers would be persecuted just as he was? As did the apostles.
Lots of people have been persecuted for their beliefs. The Jehovah's Witnesses have NO special claim on that.

Quote:
You probably dont want us claiming any such title.
Not when it's false. Now mind you, I do not deny that MANY good people who were JW's were executed in death camps. That was an atrocity of unspeakable proportions, and I FULLY recognize that. BUT... to claim that the JW's are the MOST persecuted religious group of the twentieth century is preposterous.

to be continued...
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  #214  
Old Feb 15, '10, 11:46 pm
Syntax Syntax is offline
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Default Re: Jehovah's Witnesses

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolltide View Post

Wikipedia quotes: "Viewed globally, this persecution has been so persistent and of such an intensity that it would not be inaccurate to regard Jehovah's witnesses as the most persecuted religion of the twentieth century".

Wow, so, the Jehovah's Witnesses were persecuted globally in the twentieth century more than the Jews? I realize that Jehovah's Witnesses were killed in death camps (as were Catholics, like St. Maximilian Kolbe), but WHICH religious group was the MAIN target? Come on...
I can't believe wikipedia makes such an unsubstantiated claim. You have to pay attention to who is writing these things because a person's actual credentials are not strictly assessed. I continue to find mistakes over and over again, especially on the topic of linguistics and the philosophy of language.
  #215  
Old Feb 15, '10, 11:54 pm
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Default Re: Jehovah's Witnesses

Quote:
Anyway, since youd used up 80% of you post by this stage there is no time to mention the mob violence (often clergy instigated) against them. Elenor Roosevelt had to speak up to try and stop the awful violence in the USA.

Wikipedia: The American Civil Liberties Union reported that by the end of 1940, "more than 1,500 Witnesses in the United States had been victimized in 335 separate attacks."[55] Such attacks included beatings, being tarred and feathered, hanged, shot, maimed, and even castrated, as well as other acts of violence.

(Hey, those JWs obey the law and teach people to love their neighbours from the Bible! we already know how to be nice to people! Lets get them!)
They also refused to fight to save a group that was being persecuted even more than they were. How noble.

Hmmm.... let's take a closer look at that article shall we?

Here's what else it says:

Quote:
1910s and 1920s

Strong resentment and anger were sometimes directed at the Jehovah's Witnesses (then called Bible Students) in the 1910s and 1920s. This was largely due to the Watch Tower Society's outspoken manner; it was not uncommon for members to carry placards outside churches and in the streets proclaiming the imminent destruction of church members, along with both church and government institutions if they did not flee from "false religion". Typical examples of the Watchtower's attitude are found in the Watch Tower Society's book publication The Finished Mystery (SS-7), 1917 edition: "Also, in the year 1918, when God destroys the churches wholesale and the church members by millions, it shall be that any that escape shall come to the works of Pastor Russell to learn the meaning of the downfall of 'Christianity.'"[4] "The people who are the strength of Christendom shall be cut off in the brief but terribly eventful period beginning in 1918 A.D. A third part are 'burned with fire in the midst of the city.' Fire symbolizes destruction. . . .After 1918 the people supporting churchianity will cease to be its supporters, be destroyed as adherents, by the spiritual pestilence of errors abroad, and by the famine of the Word of God among them." (Pages 398, 399) The Bible Students believed religion was a "racket and a snare" and refused to be identified as a 'religion' for some time.
Quote:
1930s and 1940s

During the late 1930s and '40s, the Jehovah's Witnesses attacked the Roman Catholic Church and other Christian denominations so vigorously that many states and municipalities passed laws against their inflammatory preaching.
Now, if you read the top of the article, you'll also see that it warns that the article needs significant expansion. If you look at the talk page, you'll note that the primary concern is that not enough attention is given to the fact that JW's of this time were much more aggressive and inflammatory in their preaching, and often times this would incite violence because they would disrupt church services or refuse to leave. That does NOT justify the violence against the JW's, but it does demonstrate that the JW's could be guilty of some very poor judgment in regard to their preaching.
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  #216  
Old Feb 16, '10, 12:24 am
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Default Re: Jehovah's Witnesses

Quote:
Originally Posted by Regardless View Post
Nor the unique stand that was made in Nazi Germany.

Wikipedia: "Taking everything into consideration, it has been established that no other religious movement resisted the pressure to conform to National Socialism with comparable unanimity and steadfastness." He later went on to say that at "no point did they support Nazi rule. Rather, the stand taken by Jehovah's Witnesses would have, according to Klaus Drobisch, "been befitting" for the majority of the population".

This while all other churches went along with this demonic regime and were soon killing their own members in war! (They had to scramble for excuses afterwards, claiming they didn't know and were really fighting the nazis behind the scenes and stuff. "The Pope didn't protest because he was busy saving Jew's in secret I tell you!")
JWs refused even to Heil Hitler (Which means salvation we owe to Hitler) they had this unique idea they owed salvation only to Jesus!
Joseph Rutherford (one of those guys that led the Jehovah's Witnesses before they were Jehovah's Witnesses, apparently) signed a document in Berlin on June 25, 1933 (oh wait, that's AFTER 1931, so they ARE JW's now) called the "Declaration of Facts". Some noble statements seemed to be included in this document:

"We are wrongfully charged before the ruling powers of this government and before the people of this nation... we do respectfully ask the rulers of the nation and the people to give a fair and impartial consideration to the statement of facts here made."

and

"Instead of being against the principles advocated by the government of Germany, we stand squarely for such principles and point out that Jehovah God through Christ Jesus will bring about the full realization of these principles and will give to the people peace and prosperity and the greatest desire of every honest heart."

and

"A careful examination of our books and literature will disclose the fact that the very high ideals held and promulgated by the present national government are set forth in and endorsed and strongly emphasized in our publications, and show that Jehovah God will see to it that these high ideals in due time will be attained by all persons who love righteousness and who obey the Most High. Instead, therefore, of our literature and our work's being a menace to the principles of the present government we are the strongest supporters of such high ideals."

However, it also continued on:

"The greatest and most oppressive empire on earth is the Anglo-American empire. By that is meant the British Empire, of which the United States of America forms a part. It has been the commercial Jews of the British-American empire that have built up and carried on Big Business as a means of exploiting and oppressing the peoples of many nations. This fact particularly applies to the cities of London and New York, the stronghold of Big Business. This fact is so manifest in America that there is a proverb concerning the city of New York which says: 'The Jews own it, the Irish Catholics rule it, and the Americans pay the bills.'"

and

"...we receive no support from Jews and that therefore the charges against us are maliciously false and could proceed only from Satan, our great enemy."

In other words, the JW hierarchy was attempting to sell out the Jews in 1933 to save their own skin.

"Dr. M. James Penton, professor emeritus in the Department of History at the University of Lethbridge, in his book Jehovah's Witnesses and the Third Reich, drawing on his own Witness background and years of research on Witness history, interprets antisemitic attitudes on the part of Jehovah's Witnesses and a "friendly" rapport with the Nazi regime."

Yes, there are charges that this quote is an exaggeration or a falsification. They come from within the Wikipedia article itself. However... the Wikipedia article was written primarily by Jehovah's Witnesses, and so it has a bias. Other sources challenge the fact that this statement was an exaggeration, so I submit this quote as a *possibly* relevant fact that requires further research.
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  #217  
Old Feb 16, '10, 12:27 am
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Default Re: Jehovah's Witnesses

Quote:
Nor would they swear an oath of loyalty to Hiltler and join the army (something even the future pope benedict presumably didnt object to since he was in the German army on and off from 1943)
"Following his 14th birthday in 1941, Ratzinger was conscripted into the Hitler Youth, as membership was required for all 14-year old German boys after December 1939, but was an unenthusiastic member and refused to attend meetings (His father was a bitter enemy of Nazism, believing it conflicted with the Catholic faith). In 1941, one of Ratzinger's cousins, a 14-year-old boy with Down syndrome, was taken away by the Nazi regime and killed during the Aktion T4 campaign of Nazi eugenics.

He managed to get out early so he could study for the priesthood.

In 1943, while still in seminary, he was drafted into the German anti-aircraft corps as Luftwaffenhelfer. (Draft evasion was punishable by death.) Ratzinger then trained in the German infantry, but a subsequent illness precluded him from the usual rigours of military duty.

As the Allied front drew closer to his post in 1945, he deserted back to his family's home in Traunstein after his unit had ceased to exist, just as American troops established their headquarters in the Ratzinger household risking death by that act alone.

As a German soldier, he was put in a POW camp, but was released a few months later at the end of the war in the summer of 1945. He reentered the seminary, along with his brother Georg, in November of that year."

So... he was put in the Hitler Youth by force but refused to attend, watched as his cousin was taken off by the Nazis to be experimented on until he died, got "sick" when he was drafted, deserted at great cost to his life, and walked straight to an Allied POW camp. All the while, he was studying to be a priest and serve God. And... the Allied forces were using Ratzinger's household as its headquarters. That doesn't sound like a very willing Nazi to me...



I'm going to continue on with my response, since I still have about 1/3 of your post left to comment on, but it's really late here, so I'll have to do it later. I'll get back to it though.
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  #218  
Old Feb 16, '10, 1:51 pm
Regardless Regardless is offline
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Default Re: Jehovah's Witnesses

Quote:
Originally Posted by zach dunn View Post
More like "the God" and "God".

Oh you! I haven't had any formal training yet, that's coming in two years!

theos according to Strong:
...
Deity
  • the rank or essential nature of a god
  • a god or goddess
...
Just for future reference (Strong):

Hebrews 1:6 "worship"

proskuneo
  • WORSHIP
  • to fawn or crouch to (literally or figuratively)
  • prostrate oneself in homage (do reverence to, adore)
Hey thanks for that! Superb.

So a particular greek word might have a variety of possible meanings!
Who is Strong? Is he a scholar or is it an encyclopedia? I will look it up.

So I guess, where satan is called theos in Corinthians, it would be in the context of :[*]"the rank or essential nature of a god".
And perhaps with the Pharisees it is somehow similar. Their rank perhaps? as representatives of God? (or should have been at least)
So when directed to Jesus it could (though not necessarily) carry a similar meaning.

That is interesting on "proskuneo" too. It doesn't necessarily mean "worship"
(of course that is what the witnesses would argue when it is directed to Jesus.)[*]prostrate oneself in homage (do reverence to, adore) like when applied to a human king or judge?

That is all very interesting. Thanks very much friend!

So you are to study it proffesionally soon? Cool.
  #219  
Old Feb 17, '10, 3:56 am
JeanneH JeanneH is offline
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Default Re: Jehovah's Witnesses

Quote:
Originally Posted by Regardless View Post

So I guess, where satan is called theos in Corinthians, it would be in the context of :[*]"the rank or essential nature of a god".

I would be interested in the verses in Corinthians that call satan theos. I ckecked and didn't come up with theos at all. One was satanas and the other was satan.(Greek) from the Strongs.

New Testament Greek Definition:
4567 Satanas {sat-an-as'}
of Aramaic origin corresponding to 4566 (with the definite
affix); TDNT - 7:151,1007; n pr m
AV - Satan 36; 36
1) adversary (one who opposes another in purpose or act), the
name given to
1a) the prince of evil spirits, the inveterate adversary of
God and Christ
1a1) he incites apostasy from God and to sin
1a2) circumventing men by his wiles
1a3) the worshippers of idols are said to be under his control
1a4) by his demons he is able to take possession of men and
inflict them with diseases
1a5) by God's assistance he is overcome
1a6) on Christ's return from heaven he will be bound with chains
for a thousand years, but when the thousand years are
finished he will walk the earth in yet greater power, but
shortly after will be given over to eternal punishment
1b) a Satan-like man

4566 Satan {sat-an'}
of Hebrew origin 07854; TDNT - 7:151,*; n pr m
AV - Satan 1; 1
1) adversary (one who opposes another in purpose or act), the
name given to
1a) the prince of evil spirits, the inveterate adversary of
God and Christ
1a1) he incites apostasy from God and to sin
1a2) circumventing men by his wiles
1a3) the worshippers of idols are said to be under his control
1a4) by his demons he is able to take possession of men and
inflict them with diseases
1a5) by God's assistance he is overcome
1a6) on Christ's return from heaven he will be bound with chains
for a thousand years, but when the thousand years are
finished he will walk the earth in yet greater power, but
shortly after will be given over to eternal punishment
1b) a Satan-like man
  #220  
Old Feb 17, '10, 5:04 am
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MyRdmrLvs MyRdmrLvs is offline
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Default Re: Jehovah's Witnesses

[quote=MyRdmrLvs;6295261]
Quote:
Originally Posted by dj dave View Post


why dont you start with the points Ive made about sighting a source as if it supports your doctrine when in fact it clearly contradicts it. why would Gods faithful servant LIE!


What no answer? thought you were feeling feisty? didnt they teach you guys what to say when the WT is proven to lie? OR is ignore and move on what they teach?
  #221  
Old Feb 17, '10, 3:33 pm
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raqrodriguez raqrodriguez is offline
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Default Re: Jehovah's Witnesses

So many times the WT has been proven as a false "prophet" (the WT claims to be the prophet of God). They them selves in early publishings have admitted they have made false prophesies.
  #222  
Old Feb 17, '10, 7:17 pm
Bill Pick Bill Pick is offline
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Default Re: Jehovah's Witnesses

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smart30 View Post
The Church is united since the first day of Christ's ministry. The word Christian is a title, it means absolutely nothing if you don't take it literally.

It literally means the complete belief in every single doctrine of God's religion and to have fellowship with Christ. This is done completely by the Individual and God, the Mediator is Jesus... no saints.

Christian is just another word for Calvinist.


Praying to the dead is blasphemy, are you aware of this?

Also why are you using Catholic terms... there's no priests/bishops in JW.
Who are you people saying all this junk yo u,not the God of the dead but of the living Mk 12'26-27
  #223  
Old Feb 17, '10, 7:21 pm
Bill Pick Bill Pick is offline
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Default Re: Jehovah's Witnesses

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smart30 View Post
The Church is united since the first day of Christ's ministry. The word Christian is a title, it means absolutely nothing if you don't take it literally.

It literally means the complete belief in every single doctrine of God's religion and to have fellowship with Christ. This is done completely by the Individual and God, the Mediator is Jesus... no saints.

Christian is just another word for Calvinist.


Praying to the dead is blasphemy, are you aware of this? some one does not know a thing about the Bible

Also why are you using Catholic terms... there's no priests/bishops in JW.
Who are you people saying all this junk your,not the God of the dead but of the living Mk 12'26-27

Who said praying to the dead is blasphemy do not know what he is talking about unles you are a JW and we all know the JW are a cult
  #224  
Old Feb 18, '10, 3:41 am
spn82756 spn82756 is offline
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Default Re: Jehovah's Witnesses

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smart30 View Post
There are no sacraments.

John Calvin simply brought Christians back to Jesus and to the supernatural religion of Christianity.

Instead of man's religions, such as Arminianism, Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy.

Yes... I quote James White.
Oh you forgot the Anglican Church by name.

Let's see...what Protestant Churches did you forget? Care to list them?

John Calvin is right up there with mohammad. Wolf in sheep's clothing.
  #225  
Old Feb 18, '10, 6:15 am
Bill Pick Bill Pick is offline
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Default Re: Jehovah's Witnesses

[quote=Regardless;6279731]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fidei View Post

It is a big discussion once we get into how religions behaved during the war of course. A very defining era I think that really showed the men from the boys.
The Jews were exterminated for ethnic reasons. Catholic and protestant converts were not spared.
Poland suffered terribly. 2 million ethnic Poles died in the camps. Poland has a huge catholic population. There may have been the priests you were thinkng of. (Possibly owing more to them being influential Poles than because they were Catholic.)

The reason I brought up Nazi germany was Rolltide presented a history lesson that focused only on mistakes and errors of the JWs.
He totally left out (on purpose I am sure) any mention of the courageous stands the JWs have made because of their faith, and the persecution they endured because of this.
Argueably more than any other religion in the 20th century.
(He thought Rutherford having a car available for resurrected ones was more relevant to history it seemed)
I had to be cheeky and show that his was a very biased history lesson.

If I somehow had everything a person has ever said on computer, I could comb through and pick out the most unkind, selfish, thoughtless things, but ignore all the kind, generous, noble things - and paint him as a monster.
I might get away without lying! but it would not be an accurate picture.

It's clear Rolltide did something similar with the JW history, so I had to be cheeky and point that out. (Others reading his post might think it was the whole truth)
The JW are a cult and have the most corrupt bible in the world,get a Christian Bible and read John 1;1
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