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  #826  
Old Apr 26, '10, 6:21 am
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Default Re: Did Jesus have siblings?

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That sap quickly drys up and so does life. How long do flowers live when cut from the root? A week if you're lucky. A cut down Christmas tree will stop drawing water in about a month showing that it is dead. How many CENTURIES have Protestants been separated from the Church? That sap is long gone and so is life.
No, Knight. Your statement contradicts the Catechism, which clearly states that the HS uses these ecclesial communities to draw people to Himself. You are equating individuals with a group phenomenon. True, those who reject the Catholic faith cannot be saved. However, the vast majority of American Protestants have never been exposed to the Catholic faith. i agree, it is incumbent upon an individual to study to show themselves approved. PR is right, it is not appropriate for us to imply that certain individuals will not go to heaven, just because they are part of a faith tradition whose ancestors separated themselves from the whole and inviolate faith.
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"The tradition of the Apostles has been made manifest throughout the world, and can be found in every Church by those who wish to know the truth." -- Irenaeus, writing about A.D. 189, on how the unity of the Church was based on the Apostolic Tradition everywhere handed down (paradosis).



  #827  
Old Apr 26, '10, 6:33 am
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Default Re: Did Jesus have siblings?

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And Catholics are saved THROUGH the Catholic Church but since Protestants REJECT the Catholic Church, they ALSO reject that salvation.
It is true that all who are saved are so through the catholic Church. However, most Protestants do not know enought about the Catholic Church to reject her. Some of them have never even thought of her...They think she is "just another denomination".

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Jesus established ONE Church; NOT many Churches (Matt. 16:18). He said in John 13:20 that "he who receives anyone who I send, receives Me." He who receives the apostles, receives Christ Himself. He who rejects the apostles and their successors, rejects Christ. The Protestants do not receive the successors of the Apostles and by rejecting them, they reject Christ.
It is true that there is only One Church, One faith, One Baptism. That is why there is no salvation outside of the Church. Most Protestants do not receive the successors of the Apostles because they have not been reached by them. Catholics have been notoriously neglectful of evangelism for centuries.

People such as yourself, who are firm in their faith, and should be evangelizing, seem to be more interested in pronouncing condemnation than reaching those separated from the root.

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If Protestants accept the Catholic faith then they can go to heaven but if they accept the Catholic Faith and accept the successors of the Apostles, then they would be Catholic and not Protestant. So, no, those who reject the Catholic faith can not go to heaven.
There are already, and will be persons in heaven who are not indentifiable as Catholic in this life. It is not our place to judge the souls of others.
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  #828  
Old Apr 26, '10, 9:06 am
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Default Re: Did Jesus have siblings?

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Inkaneer

Your response indicates such a deep and bitter prejudice against Protestantism that I don't think it's worth my effort to answer point by point. You are right on some points, but obviously we disagree on others.

Yes, there is hostility against Catholicism in America. Most of it comes from the same source that is hostile to Protestantism and religion generally - avid secularism. Most Protestants I know were and continue to be delighted with the better relationship between Protestantism and Catholicism since Vatican II. Your attitude suggests that you only think of ecumenism in terms of the reunion of Christendom under the Papacy and in accord with full Catholic doctrine. That will not happen..
First of all I hold no prejudice against protestants. We live in a world of choices and we live and die by those choices. I do see protestantism as a bad choice and I will point out to those wiling to listen why I think so. Sometimes that ruffles some feathers because I was never gifted with the talent of diplomacy. But sometimes one has to say this is what it is no matter what the consequences may be. So with that in mind i will say that if you think that a reunion of christians means that we will compromise on the truth then it will not happen. If those early Catholics who met the lions in Rome's Circus Maximus didn't compromise their faith how can we? I can see why protestants would want Catholics to compromise our doctrines for it would provide protestantism with the legitimacy they have sought all along. Then they can say, "see, we're just as good as you are." But that will not happen. Protestantism will have to live up to the very scriptures they claim are their authority and that includes all the scriptures. But even if compromise was possible, which it isn't, to whom do we compromise? Protestantism is so divided and fractured that any compromise is impossible. That division and fracturing is ongoing and will continue as long as protestantism believes in the fairy tale of sola scriptura. One of two things will happen, either protestantism will divide itself into smaller and smaller denominations until the point is reach where these denominations cannot sustain themselves or protestantism wakes up and realizes that sola scriptura doesn't work and it sees that what is needed and lacking is what they do not have. That is a single authority to interpret scripture.


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Religion should be a bridge and not a barrier. God bless Catholics, Protestants, Orthodox - and I would add Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, etc. I'm sure that God smiles upon all those, of whatever faith, who love him and one another. Christ clearly stated that this was a summation of his message. .
People like Jack Chick and Lorraine Boettner make a nice living selling their Anti- Catholic prejudice to protestants. If protestants want to build a bridge maybe starting on your own shoreline is not a bad idea. Of course protestantism can't do that because they lack the cohesiveness necessary to have any co ordination. Unlike Catholicism, protestantism doesn't speak with one voice.

Also this idea that God smiles on all people of "whatever faith" is a fallacy. It is the heresy of indifferentism wrapped in New Age terminology. Jesus went to great lengths to establish a church. That is church singular, not churches plural. Why would anyone who claims they love God want to separate himself from that one church? Because it supposedly went astray? Really? Remember this is the church that Jesus said would prevail over the forces of hell. This claim that protestants offer that somehow the church lost its way and needed reformation is pure baloney. If the church lost its way then hell prevailed and that is impossible according to Jesus. So how can protestants say they love Jesus and call Him a liar at the same time? I don't know hte answer to that question, maybe you do. Protestants will have to return to that church established by Jesus. And that church will not compromise its doctrines for it cannot. The Holy Spirit will not permit it.
  #829  
Old Apr 26, '10, 9:06 am
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Default Re: Did Jesus have siblings?

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Oh, as for the early Church fathers, I read most of them over the years. There is some wisdom in their writings, even brilliance considering the times, but there also are major errors because they did not have modern telescopes, miscrocopes and other means of understanding the vast universe around them. Even today, with all of our advances, there is so much that we cannot understand in the mysterious world. Some look to the Pope for the final word. Others look to the Bible. Many of us seek to combine scripture and reason with a certain amount of tradition thrown in. Too much reliance upon tradition, however, can be a hazard. Religion, like other things, has to make certain adjustments to the times. I'm sure you don't agree with that. Fine. We disagree. I don't find that a crime, as it was when the church executed heretics. The Protestant record is less than glorious, also.
Did you read the early church writers for their science or for their theology? Read them again for their theology and ask yourself this question; are these guys teaching protestantism or Catholicism? I can assure you there isn't a protestant in the whole bunch. That is because protestantism is a 16th century invention of man. It is the tradition of man that protestants like to accuse the Catholic church of. I find it somewhat amusing that they accuse us of what they are. As for heretics the chuirch executed not one of them. Arius and Nestorious lived to be old men as did Luther, Calvin and Zwinglii. Heretics, however, ran into a buzz saw in the middle ages when the idea that kings ruled by a divine right was in vogue. Kings saw it as their duty to uphold the faith and to dispatch heretics and doubly so if they said or wrote anything against the king. Even the fantastic claims of protestants of the hundreds of thousands killed by the church in the Inquisition has been thoroughly debunked. Yet during the so called reformation Catholic convents were attacked and nuns raped. Monasteries were attacked and priests and monks killed some even crucified. England ran red with the blood of Catholics for over two hundred years. Protestants have no right to point their fingers at the Catholic Church when those very fingers drip with the blood of martyred saints.

In spite of all that the Catholic church holds itself out to protestants even calling them our separated brothers. You say I have a prejudice against protestants. I don't. One does not need prejudice when the truth speaks fore itself. So your beef, if any, is not with me. Instead it is time to build that bridge by first clearing away the rubble where your abutment will be.
  #830  
Old Apr 26, '10, 9:22 am
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Default Re: Did Jesus have siblings?

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Did you read the early church writers for their science or for their theology?
LOVE this, inkaneer!
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  #831  
Old Apr 26, '10, 12:32 pm
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Default Re: Did Jesus have siblings?

Inkaneer. Not quite sure why I continue this dialogue? with Inkaneer.

A couple quick points and then I must go on to more pressing pursuits.

1. Frankly, I'm not asking for compromise by anyone. My idea, which I know is not yours, is that Christians can live together in a warm relationship without constantly sniping at one another. There are a few fanatics here and there. Chick for example, although I suspect that 98% of Protestants have never heard of him. I've never heard of the other person you mention - Lorraine somebody. The main Protestant denominations manage to get along rather well with their differences, as through the World and National Council of Churches (which also include many Orthodox bodies). Most local clergy associations have included Catholic priests as members since Vatican II. In many communities the Week of Prayer for Christian Unity is observed when Catholics and Protestants have union services. Are you in favor of that? That would have been considered a compromise before Vatican II. Before Vatican II, by the way, Protestants were not regarded by the Catholic Church as separated brothers. It was a big sin to even enter a Protestant church. One priest in town told parochial school pupils to cross the street rather than go directly by the door of a Protestant church on their walk home. Thank you, John XXIII, for your new attitude of reconciliation.

2. Not all the early Church Fathers are revered by the Catholic Church. I believe even Origen and Tertullian were judged to be heretics for some reason. Sorry, I read them years ago and forgot the details. And there were differences of opinion among some who were declared heretics, of course, so now are counted out as Church Fathers. It's easier to get agreement if you declare heretical views that didn't match Church Council votes. As in the case of Arius, for example.

3. Don't even suggest that heretics weren't executed. Whole groups were attacked and many killed, whether the Hussites, Albigensians, Waldensians, Huguenots and many others over the centuries. As I recall the Crusaders even slaughtered many Orthodox on their way to the Holy Land and when they slayed all the inhabitants of Jerusalem (in 1099?). Memory of dates is a bit shaky. St. Thomas Aquinas favored execution of heretics - by the state. The church should notify the state of their heresy.

Yes, Protestants killed Catholics as under Elizabeth I. Catholics killed Protestants as under Bloody Mary. Neither side can claim a good record in that regard. On my Protestant side (maternal), by the way, an ancestral grandfather fled Ghent, Belgium, to France, when the Grand Court (or whatever its name was) ordered him to appear for trial as a Huguenot. Instead, he fled by night with his family to France, until Huguenots were freely murdered there. So they then fled to England and his grandson etc were part of the Puritan migration to New England. My paternal side was French-Canadian Catholic with the first Archbishop of Quebec on my family tree. One reason why I'm interest in a spirit of Catholic-Protestant unity, but not union. Unlike you, apparently, I have no problem with Christians with different points of view on such matters as doctrine (e. g., transubstantiation) or practice (e. g., women clergy). Thank and let think. The main appeal of Protestantism to me is that the mainline denominations seem to tolerate various opinions without declaring those members persona non grata. The main appeal of Catholicism is some of the traditions that can become very dear to many.

Have to invest my time more wisely. God bless people of every faith. I'm sure Christ would want us to feel this way. He made a hero out of a Samaritan who was of a different religion (and guilty of intermarriage), a faith certainly viewed as heretical by the religious establishment in Jerusalem. Come to think of it, Jesus was crucified in part because he was judged to be a heretic himself. In any case, he was more far more interested in love than in doctrinal conformity.

I'm pleased to let God decide who gets to heaven and who doesn't. My expectation is that it will be full of Catholics, Protestants, Orthodox, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, Jains, Sikhs, all sorts of Native Americans and other tribal people of Africa, Asia, America (N and S), etc., etc. Maybe hell - or purgatory - will house a high proportion of people who thought they were the only ones destined for heaven. But I shouldn't speculate. I hope you make it, Inkaneer, and I look forward to additional dialogue face to face. I don't believe you're as harsh in your judgments as you appear in what you write.

PS As for slavery and your earlier comment. Neither Protestants or Catholics have anything to brag about. There were Protestant slavers, but by far the largest number of slaves went to Latin America and the West Indians - 85% or even more. The Spanish, Portuguese and French were the main slavers in those areas. Like in the famous Amistad case. One could raise all sorts of silly issues, like who burned down the Colored Orphan Asylum in New York City during the riots there during the Civil War? Mainly Irish Catholics. But I really shouldn't raise such 'gotcha' points as they are of such little importance today. Besides, II'm part Irish and my father-in-law came from County Donegal, Ireland - a staunch Catholic and devotee of the IRA! That might help you understand why I hope to see peace, harmony, reconciliation and understanding between Catholics and Protestants.
  #832  
Old Apr 26, '10, 3:44 pm
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Default Re: Did Jesus have siblings?

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Inkaneer. Not quite sure why I continue this dialogue? with Inkaneer.

A couple quick points and then I must go on to more pressing pursuits.

1. Frankly, I'm not asking for compromise by anyone. My idea, which I know is not yours, is that Christians can live together in a warm relationship without constantly sniping at one another. There are a few fanatics here and there. Chick for example, although I suspect that 98% of Protestants have never heard of him. I've never heard of the other person you mention - Lorraine somebody. The main Protestant denominations manage to get along rather well with their differences, as through the World and National Council of Churches (which also include many Orthodox bodies). Most local clergy associations have included Catholic priests as members since Vatican II. In many communities the Week of Prayer for Christian Unity is observed when Catholics and Protestants have union services. Are you in favor of that? That would have been considered a compromise before Vatican II. Before Vatican II, by the way, Protestants were not regarded by the Catholic Church as separated brothers. It was a big sin to even enter a Protestant church. One priest in town told parochial school pupils to cross the street rather than go directly by the door of a Protestant church on their walk home. Thank you, John XXIII, for your new attitude of reconciliation."
That story of the Catholic priest telling the school children to cross the street really gets around. I've heard it from different people in different parts of the country. Unfortunately no one seems to know the name of this priest. I guess some details get lost in the retelling of the story. As for these "union services" these are not worship services by a Catholic definition although they may be considered as such by protestants. None of these services is a Mass and none of them include a communion service. Yes, John XXIII and Vatican II opened the door for protestants but it's up to them to walk through.

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2. Not all the early Church Fathers are revered by the Catholic Church. I believe even Origen and Tertullian were judged to be heretics for some reason. Sorry, I read them years ago and forgot the details. And there were differences of opinion among some who were declared heretics, of course, so now are counted out as Church Fathers. It's easier to get agreement if you declare heretical views that didn't match Church Council votes. As in the case of Arius, for example.
Origen and Tertullian were never declared saints in the church. The case against Origen is very complex and theologians are equally divided about him. The case against Tertullian is a lot simpler. Tertullian came from paganism into Christianity and then lapsed into Montanism and then into his own sect. As you know, or should know, the Catholic Church does not regard any of the Early Church Fathers as divinely inspired despite protestant allegations to the contrary. The ECF's are regarded as historical witnesses of their time and place. So that when they write of the beliefs of their times we can accept their writing as historical evidence. Unfortunately for protestants not one of the early writers gives support to sola scriptura. In fact, I do not believe any of the early heretics did either. That came over a millenium later.
  #833  
Old Apr 26, '10, 3:45 pm
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3. Don't even suggest that heretics weren't executed. Whole groups were attacked and many killed, whether the Hussites, Albigensians, Waldensians, Huguenots and many others over the centuries. As I recall the Crusaders even slaughtered many Orthodox on their way to the Holy Land and when they slayed all the inhabitants of Jerusalem (in 1099?). Memory of dates is a bit shaky. St. Thomas Aquinas favored execution of heretics - by the state. The church should notify the state of their heresy.
Inever said heretics weren't killed. I said they weren't killed by the church. Big difference there. As for the fourth Crusade you fail to mention that The pope forbade the crusaders from doing any harm to Christians or christian lands under penalty of excommunication. I know, its one of those little details that gets lost in the retelling of the story. You also forget to mention that 400 merchants from Venice were murdered in Constnatinople in 1182 along with other foreigners and other Venetians were expelled minus their property. That did not sit well with the Venetians. The sacking of Constantinople was in retribution for these actions as well as the actions of the Constantinians in prior Crusades. The sacking was the work of, who else but, the Doge of Venice, Enrico Dandolo. Check a history book to see if i am not correct.


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Yes, Protestants killed Catholics as under Elizabeth I. Catholics killed Protestants as under Bloody Mary. Neither side can claim a good record in that regard. On my Protestant side (maternal), by the way, an ancestral grandfather fled Ghent, Belgium, to France, when the Grand Court (or whatever its name was) ordered him to appear for trial as a Huguenot. Instead, he fled by night with his family to France, until Huguenots were freely murdered there. So they then fled to England and his grandson etc were part of the Puritan migration to New England. My paternal side was French-Canadian Catholic with the first Archbishop of Quebec on my family tree. One reason why I'm interest in a spirit of Catholic-Protestant unity, but not union. Unlike you, apparently, I have no problem with Christians with different points of view on such matters as doctrine (e. g., transubstantiation) or practice (e. g., women clergy). Thank and let think. The main appeal of Protestantism to me is that the mainline denominations seem to tolerate various opinions without declaring those members persona non grata. The main appeal of Catholicism is some of the traditions that can become very dear to many.
The difference of course between Queen Mary and Queen Elizabeth was that Mary, although a Catholic had no authority in the church while Elizabeth being the monarch was the head of the protestant church in England. So while Catholic may have killed protestants they were not acting under orders of the church but the same cannot be said of the protestants.



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PS As for slavery and your earlier comment. Neither Protestants or Catholics have anything to brag about. There were Protestant slavers, but by far the largest number of slaves went to Latin America and the West Indians - 85% or even more. The Spanish, Portuguese and French were the main slavers in those areas. Like in the famous Amistad case. One could raise all sorts of silly issues, like who burned down the Colored Orphan Asylum in New York City during the riots there during the Civil War? Mainly Irish Catholics. But I really shouldn't raise such 'gotcha' points as they are of such little importance today. Besides, II'm part Irish and my father-in-law came from County Donegal, Ireland - a staunch Catholic and devotee of the IRA! That might help you understand why I hope to see peace, harmony, reconciliation and understanding between Catholics and Protestants.

Again the slave trade was denounced by the church and those envolved in it incurred automatic excommunication. This was as early as 1537. However, the Baptists involvement in the KKK has gone on right up to present time. Edgar Ray "Preacher" Killen, baptist minister and a "kleagle" in the KKK was finally convicted in federal court in 2005 for the infamous "Mississippi Burning" murders of 1964. As for the "Colored Ophan Asylum fire that was the work of a mob who were rioting against the new military draft law which targeted lower class working men while sparing the wealthy men who could pay the "Commutation Fee". The mob was rioting against "draft dodgers". Many but not the majority of those arrested had Irish names. That is not surprising seeing that Catholics were restricted to the lower economic class by protestants and the first wave of Irish immigration occurred just about a decade before. Also you did not mention that the asylum was not the only building that was torched. It was one of several and was not itself a target. You fail to mention that as well as the fact that one of the heros of the day was a fireman named Paddy McCaffrey. So why do you even mention this if, as you say, it is a "silly" issue.
  #834  
Old Apr 26, '10, 6:04 pm
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It amazes me, Inkaneer, that you hold on to such a wild prejudice against Protestantism. It's the way I feel about the KKK, Nazism and Bolshevism, but certainly not about fellow Christians or other segments of Christianity, whether I agree with them or not. You seem to have such a deep-rooted hostility toward Protestantism, the variety I might have run into in Ireland 100 years ago - even though some of the leaders against British rule were Protestants (Parnell etc) and some of the Catholic hierarchy there played footsie with the British occupiers.

I don't recall ever chatting with either a Catholic or a Protestant with such intense religious bitterness based on some facts and some half-truths and much debatable history.. Well, when I was a young child my siblings and I were warned several times by other children that we were going to hell because we attended a Protestant church on special occasions with our maternal grandfather. To think that some folks actually believed that was a sin!

I don't intend to dialogue anymore, but do suggest that you sit back, relax, and try your best to take a somewhat objective view of history. The more you learn the less you will be disturbed by Protestantism. Maybe say a prayer or two for wisdom. I worry more about your bias intensity than your bias in recounting history. It's Catholics like you that could push me away from the church. Fortunately, I have never run into Catholics like you, except for a few here on CAF. I will pray for you (and them) as I am concerned about the spiritual welfare of all those who use religious disagreements as a club to clobber others.

Christ would want Christians to live in an atmosphere of peace and mutual respect. You seem to have zero respect for the faith of most of your countrymen, even going back to Washington and Franklin, Adams and Monroe, Lincoln and Roosevelt (both of them), etc. Are you an American? I know the internet is worldwide and I know that certain Irishmen, Croatians, and others bear the scars of more modern religious conflict. I recall reading of the Croats and Slovaks and their questionable World War II alliances. But that is old history and should be forgiven and forgotten, certainly not held against Croats and Slovaks today. (I have been privileged to spend time in both nations, by the way - beautiful countries.)

We attended "South Pacific" recently - the play by the Gershwins - and one song may apply. I don't recall all the words but they include "you've got to be taught to hate...."

God bless people of every faith and may religion become a bridge and not a barrier.
  #835  
Old Apr 26, '10, 6:46 pm
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