What happens immediately after death? - Page 3

Deacon Ed B · #31 Feb 14, '08, 4:35 am

To Barbara Therese - Again, based on no official teaching, I would have to say that I believe we would know and recognize others in heaven and purgatory. Hell would be another state altogether. We are told by some saints who have had visions of hell, that is is a place not only of fire, but one of total hatred, for God, yourself, and for all others, particularly for those who may have caused you to sin mortally and to end up in hell. Such would indeed be a hellish existence.
Deacon Ed B

palmas85 · #32 Feb 14, '08, 6:25 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by cyberjedi75

Not a Catholic basher, just a truth seeker...

here are your proof texts...http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/death.htm

These proof texts as you call them prove nothing. If you are merely going to pull sentences from scripture totally out of context you can prove or disprove practically anything at all, which is what this website is doing. Protestants often use this tactic and it is one of the reasons for the multitude of protestant denominations, all differing slightly based on these passages taken out of context which are then used to either prove or disprove whatever the individual playing this game wants.

So I will ask again, please tell me where it states specifically, in context, that the dead know nothing, remember nothing and sleep until the final judgement?

cyberjedi75 · #33 Feb 14, '08, 8:05 am

I have to laugh that people in the church are still using purgatory when the pope himself said it was never an official teaching and has said it is NOT an official teaching...and as for the other question/remark about proof text....it said those things over and over...if you can't read then maybe consider some schooling and if I'm wrong where are your proof texts proving otherwise? Seems I have a lot more evidence. Like I said earlier...prove me wrong and I'll become a full believing Catholic myself.

Walking_Home · #34 Feb 14, '08, 8:24 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by cyberjedi75

I have to laugh that people in the church are still using purgatory when the pope himself said it was never an official teaching and has said it is NOT an official teaching...and as for the other question/remark about proof text....it said those things over and over...if you can't read then maybe consider some schooling and if I'm wrong where are your proof texts proving otherwise? Seems I have a lot more evidence. Like I said earlier...prove me wrong and I'll become a full believing Catholic myself.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Since you have made the statement --- provide documentation as to when this was said -- and which Pope said this.

cyberjedi75 · #35 Feb 14, '08, 9:52 am

okay look we could keep this up forever. Thing is you don't know me. You don't know why I am doing this or what my motivations are. The truth is I am a Catholic or least I am by name. However,
The protestants have some very good arguments. Things that I can't refute. Every time I take my questions to a priest they never answer me. I am drawn to the Catholic church though I'm not sure why. The thing is that I despise Lies. And some people have been bothering my mind and making me feel like I have been fed lies. I think a lot. That's who I am...I have a scientific mind and I am like Thomas I guess...I need proof. I don't know if I believe that Jesus IS truely present in the Eucharist. I want to believe it. It would make it a whole lot cooler than simply being symbolic. But I need the truth. I see the Holy Spirit working in other churches. Why would that be possible if they were false? I may come off as rude, but I am really just searching. Thanks for listening.

Deacon Ed B · #36 Feb 14, '08, 2:05 pm

In response to post 33, the laugh is on you. The pope was addressing the belief that some have about limbo, not purgatory. . The Church believes and teaches that purgatory does indeed exist. If you would have all the books of the bible as contained in the Catholic version, you could see that scripture does indeed reference a place of atonement after death.
Deacon Ed B

palmas85 · #37 Feb 14, '08, 2:35 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by cyberjedi75

okay look we could keep this up forever. Thing is you don't know me. You don't know why I am doing this or what my motivations are. The truth is I am a Catholic or least I am by name. However,
The protestants have some very good arguments. Things that I can't refute. Every time I take my questions to a priest they never answer me. I am drawn to the Catholic church though I'm not sure why. The thing is that I despise Lies. And some people have been bothering my mind and making me feel like I have been fed lies. I think a lot. That's who I am...I have a scientific mind and I am like Thomas I guess...I need proof. I don't know if I believe that Jesus IS truely present in the Eucharist. I want to believe it. It would make it a whole lot cooler than simply being symbolic. But I need the truth. I see the Holy Spirit working in other churches. Why would that be possible if they were false? I may come off as rude, but I am really just searching. Thanks for listening.

When you say that you see the Holy Spirit working in other churches, what exactly do you mean? Physical signs, emotional experiences, miracles, what exactly?

Remember, that Satan can imitate the workings of the Holy Spirit to a great degree and demons, being fallen angels, still maintain a corrupted version of their angelic functions, whatever they were. They can and do make things appear to be what they are not. I would be very very careful about assuming things that I see in other Churches to be the handiwork of God. They may very well be, but there is also the very good chance that they are not.

As to other issues that you have raised and avoided answering, I think your non response proves a lot. You say that you are seeking the truth.

Great, we all are, at least most of us on this forum are. I can tell you honestly that you will not find it in the web sites that you are getting this anti-Catholic propaganda from. They have a specific agenda and you need to be aware of that. That agenda has nothing to do with the truth or understanding things. It seeks only to poison the minds of people against Catholicism and pull people into false and heretical beliefs.

DON'T FALL FOR IT

**jmcrae** · #38 Feb 14, '08, 2:55 pm

I think we really can only speculate.

I suppose when we are without our bodies, it will be like how it is in a dream - not that we are asleep, but that we can experience things through our minds without having our bodies with us. (I suppose that, just like in a dream, we would imagine or sense that we have some kind of a spiritual body.)

I once heard a talk by someone who had a near-death experience when he was in a state of mortal sin. He said he would have wanted to choose Heaven, but it was impossible - Heaven was just too light and sweet, and he couldn't stand it. He knew at that moment that he had to go to Hell, but then something happened and God gave him back his life, on the condition that he must become an evangelist and spread the Gospel, and most of all, tell people to go to Confession.

I can't remember his name, but he is one of these former drug addicts that are coming into the Church these days (hallelujia!!), and he has kind of an ADD-like personality.

BarbaraTherese · #39 Feb 14, '08, 3:23 pm

It may well be that the content between death and The Return of Christ is something that no details are actually known and we simply need to wait until we get there to find out. In initiating this Thread I wanted to find out, if possible, if The Church had anything to say defnitely about this interim state or whether indeed it need be a matter of Peaceful trust. And in starting this thread I was looking for actual authentic Church statements/teaching...........Blessings all - Barb

cyberjedi75 · #40 Feb 14, '08, 4:39 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deacon Ed B

In response to post 33, the laugh is on you. The pope was addressing the belief that some have about limbo, not purgatory. . The Church believes and teaches that purgatory does indeed exist. If you would have all the books of the bible as contained in the Catholic version, you could see that scripture does indeed reference a place of atonement after death.
Deacon Ed B

Okay yes, I do know what those books have to say but there is great questions as to the authority of those books. Why do some refer to them as apocraphy and some dueterocannical. I know I spelled those horribly, please forgive me but I just want to know the answer and I don't feel like looking up spelling. But I'm sure you've heard this before and know the answer. The only way those texts which you refer to can be legit is if the books are also. How can we know for sure after 6000 years? Isn't there some jewish circles who say those were never books in the first place. They didn't even regongnize them? If you can please explain.
p.s another quick thing...I was reading a pro catholic site and it was trying to say how all the holidays we celebrate are good and holy and are obligations...obligations??? Isn't that like the same thing the jews were doing considering their Holy Days? Making people celebrate them? Doesn't the bible give us freedom of choice concerning Holy Days, New Moons and Sabbaths? How can a church say anything is obligation concerning what days we celebrate when Jesus' death set us free from laws and dates and times? And if we were going to celebrate anything why not keep the ones God in heaven said they would celebrate forever? What was so bad about keeping those days? We all know our current traditions have their roots in paganism. Not saying that it still is paganism because God searches the hearts. But why out of the two did the church chose pagan days and ways over the High Holy Days God set? Seems like a red flag to me. Thank you ahead of time for clarifying.
P.S Doesn't even revelations say something about the people will have to go up to celebrate the Feast of tabernacles? And some punishment for those who do not? And that is a future prophecy.
and pps....No one is laughing...infact I'm quite serious...

cyberjedi75 · #41 Feb 14, '08, 4:56 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by palmas85

When you say that you see the Holy Spirit working in other churches, what exactly do you mean? Physical signs, emotional experiences, miracles, what exactly?

Remember, that Satan can imitate the workings of the Holy Spirit to a great degree and demons, being fallen angels, still maintain a corrupted version of their angelic functions, whatever they were. They can and do make things appear to be what they are not. I would be very very careful about assuming things that I see in other Churches to be the handiwork of God. They may very well be, but there is also the very good chance that they are not.

As to other issues that you have raised and avoided answering, I think your non response proves a lot. You say that you are seeking the truth.

Great, we all are, at least most of us on this forum are. I can tell you honestly that you will not find it in the web sites that you are getting this anti-Catholic propaganda from. They have a specific agenda and you need to be aware of that. That agenda has nothing to do with the truth or understanding things. It seeks only to poison the minds of people against Catholicism and pull people into false and heretical beliefs.

DON'T FALL FOR IT

Well for one thing we know that Satan cannot cast out Satan right? We've seen this from Scripture. So how about the transformations of peoples lives in finding Christ? I've seen people give up Alcoholism, drugs and all sorts of other "demons" in their lives. Those things don't take place from Satan himself because then he'd be fighting against himself. I for one had life changing experiences when I found God in my life and I wasn't Catholic at the time. No one can tell me it isn't real. I changed totally...I became a lover of truth, hater of evil and perverted things, I could not lie or if I did great guilt would overcome me. The Holy Spirit directed my thoughts and actions everyday. I was also saved from certain death several times and know for a fact it was only because of heavenly intercession. These experiences take place within true believers all over the world in every circle and in every denomination. People who do not literally drink blood and body every day but do so spiritually though their simple faith in Christ. Isn't it just possible that God is in everyone and for everyone and denominations arn't an issue? Catholic or otherwise true faith is where salvation is. After all isn't that what saved Abraham? He had no religion but was saved through faith alone. It seems these days even the church is seeing things this way, as more and more you hear Catholics calling others brothers and sisters. How could we be brothers and sisters if I'm a goat and you are a sheep? There is no light in darkness right? If I don't believe that the bread and wine are blood and body but believe instead it is spiritual how then can we be truely united? What about the time the pope prayed with other faiths? These people wern't even Christian!!! What did he hope to accomplish by assembling a group of people with different Gods/goddesses and praying together as if they were united? In these actions I think he caused more confusion then anything. That is anyways the way a person like me, who is still a searching infant in Christ sees it. It didn't help me to have faith in the Catholic faith, it just confused me and made me question the faith. thoughts?

nmercier1 · #42 Feb 14, '08, 5:44 pm

welcome to the boards cyberjedi! If your searching for truth in the specifics of the tiny detail, the Church really has a answer for everything, its quite amazing what 2000 years of questions will do to a institution. But anyways, I finall realized one day, after questioning such things as you are questioning now, that the church has been super consistent on things for a very long time. Did you know that take for instance the year 300, do you now how many non-canonical books were circulating during this time. My philosophy teacher showed us a small example. He held up a book with non-canonical books which was humungous and about 3-4 inches think, and then the new testament, which was about a inch or so. You think divisions are bad now, back then things were insane amongst christians. But what ultimately prevailed? The Apostolic Tradition of the Apostles. Do not believe me, well check out this website.

www.earlychurchfathers.org

Its quick and to the point, and shows what 1st 2nd and 3rd century fathers were taught, and much is what we divide over today.

Deacon Ed B · #43 Feb 14, '08, 6:48 pm

Response to post #40 - The books of the Catholic bible for the Old Testament come from the Alexandrian Canon (called the Greek Canon) This is where we get the term Septuagint. Those books written in Greek were by the Jews in exile. This council of Alexandria ran from 250 to 125 BC, During the Old Testament. It included the books not included in the Protestant Bible as they follow the Council of Jamnia of 95 AD. It was done by a group of Rabbis who discarded the books written in Greek and recognized only the ones written in Hebrew., thus the term Hebrew Canon. The point here is that the Old Testament was over and the New Testament was in existence. Jesus promised his apostles that they and their successors would be under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. The council of Jamnia was under no such guidance.
Deacon Ed B

philippaul · #44 May 5, '10, 12:19 pm

My 2 cents. None of this is scriptural or follows Tradition but I like to think we are given some time to think when we die. Please take this only as my imagination. It has no authority. It is almost no different than a thought like, "I wonder what God looks like?"

Heaven may be too much to take for a passed soul in this still earth-bound state. I imagine Satan being the liar that he is, will show you that the place of Hell looks many more times greater than the state of Purgatory. He may admit yes, Hell is a miserable place but it's not nearly as bad as Purgatory as it may look to be so impossible there to get to the point where you're allowed to live with God.

Hopefully though, you'll have enough grace when you pass, that your eyes will be opened even more and you'll know Satan and his hordes for what they are: liars and lions "prowling around like a roaring lion looking for (someone) to devour." Woe to the person who accepts Hell and rejects God in finality. That unfortunate soul will know at that point that he has been taken for a fool. I can't imagine anyone with a clear mind making this choice.