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  #151  
Old Sep 22, '10, 8:17 am
edwest2 edwest2 is offline
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Default Re: Pope's astronomer dismisses ID and says Church was "spectacularly wrong" in its treatment of Galileo

Quote:
Originally Posted by wanstronian View Post
Just got round to listening to this. It's just a regurgitation of all the well-debunked arguments for ID - irreducible complexity, appearance of design = design, etc.

Here's an open response to Bierle's nonsensical rhetoric from a real biologist, PZ Myers:



ID ain't science, it's creationism wearing a lab coat.




PZ Myers is a professional propagandist. I've been to his web site. Something is bothering him to the point where he felt the need to post a youtube video where he takes a Host, puts a rusty nail through it and then throws it in the trash. Pure anti-God theatrics.

To my fellow Catholics, pray for him.




God bless,
Ed
  #152  
Old Sep 22, '10, 8:19 am
OrdinaryMelkite OrdinaryMelkite is offline
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Default Re: Pope's astronomer dismisses ID and says Church was "spectacularly wrong" in its treatment of Galileo

Quote:
Originally Posted by bingbang View Post
Yes, Galileo was an unscientific oaf. If I had to use two words to describe Galileo it would certainly be unscientific oaf....

lol, I love how you are hating on Galileo for teaching theory as fact......when he was RIGHT and it WAS FACT.
Yes, it was a fact. But at the time, it was not considered a fact YET. The Church wanted Galielo to wait until they could incorporate this"fact" into their teachings and the Catholic way of Life. It was an issue of allowing the public to absorb this and letting this be in line with Catholic Authority and Teaching. They felt that it this was disseminated the wrong way, it would be interpreted as a threat to the ir authority (rightly or wrongly).
Remember,also, there was no "separation of church state" in those days.

The Church also felt (rightlty or wrongly) that there was no actual PROOF. They wanted more concrete PROOF so that they could indeed feel comfortable disseminating Heliocentric Theory as Fact.

Galileo refused to teach this as Theory----because he cared more about his ego and personal glory than his Faith and Church. As such, he ended up hurting himself in the process. I don't condone what the Church did necessarily, but I DO understand where they were coming from. So yes, he was an "unscientific oaf."
  #153  
Old Sep 22, '10, 8:21 am
edwest2 edwest2 is offline
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Default Re: Pope's astronomer dismisses ID and says Church was "spectacularly wrong" in its treatment of Galileo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brendan View Post
Technically speaking, God is not 'included' in ID, but is rather the CONCLUSION, after the examination of the empirical evidence.

An example would be being on newly discovered island. You see a pot shaped stone, inside are pieces of cooked meat and burnt logs and coals surrond the pot.

One can create two hypothesis.


1. That the pot shape was a natural formation that developed by action of wind\wave. The meat came from droppings from a carnivorious animals meal. At some point after the piece of meat was dropped in the pot, a fire arose from some sort of spark.

2. There is a person on this island who shaped the pot, and cooked the meat over a fire.


So the 'intellegence' is actually a conclusion based on empirical examination of the evidence. It was not introduced AS evidence.



Well done. That is exactly right. The desire to dismiss ID is the desire to dismiss any higher intelligence or authority. It is a form of protest for Radical Individualism. We are bags of chemicals that spontaneously gained the power to move and speak.




God bless,
Ed
  #154  
Old Sep 22, '10, 8:58 am
Tantum ergo Tantum ergo is offline
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Default Re: Pope's astronomer dismisses ID and says Church was "spectacularly wrong" in its treatment of Galileo

Quote:
Originally Posted by wanstronian View Post
Reason and religious faith are mutually exclusive.

If IDvolution is real, why do you appear to be the only person who knows about it? As far as I can make out, you invented the term. Which means that I can invent the word, "hgrapphy", and assert that it's very real, and is the intersection between philately and sky-diving.

But maybe I'm getting ahead of myself. Please present your peer-reviewed thesis on IDvolution, complete with its citations, experimental methods, predicted and actual results, falsification and verification criteria, and publication references.
Wait, "reason" and "religious faith" are 'mutually exclusive?

You must have very, very different definitions for all of those. Wherever did you get the idea that reason and faith are exclusive? One cannot reason accurately and completely without faith, and one cannot have a full complete faith without reason. Heavens above, I simply can't understand how an intelligent and articulate adult could be so misguided as to swallow some soundbyte rhetoric and be fooled into thinking that faith and reason were some sort of mutually exclusive (and thus antithetic) entities. My word.
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  #155  
Old Sep 22, '10, 9:46 am
JDaniel JDaniel is offline
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Default Re: Pope's astronomer dismisses ID and says Church was "spectacularly wrong" in its treatment of Galileo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leela View Post
From this view I guess you would say that whether or not the Catholic Church could be wrong on a moral issue is just a bad question. It would be a misunderstanding to say yes or no.
Leela:

C'mon. Let's go after that evil Catholic Church. Surely, they've done something bad. Surely, I can get them on something.

I know one thing: can you imagine, they make people good. They tell people that there is a God and that He knows everything. Can you imagine that? People buy into that and actually become good, or at least better!

Well, Leela, we know that you just can't support that can you?

God bless,
jd
  #156  
Old Sep 22, '10, 9:53 am
JDaniel JDaniel is offline
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Default Re: Pope's astronomer dismisses ID and says Church was "spectacularly wrong" in its treatment of Galileo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leela View Post
I understand the difference. The issue is whether or not I am guilty of heresy since I deny that the Church has any authority and do not believe in the virgin birth and lots of other heretical stuff. Do you think I am guilty of heresy?

Leela:
Why you so silly? You know we cannot pronounce you a heretic! We just know you are not necessarily a good person.


God bless,
jd
  #157  
Old Sep 22, '10, 10:06 am
JDaniel JDaniel is offline
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Default Re: Pope's astronomer dismisses ID and says Church was "spectacularly wrong" in its treatment of Galileo

Quote:
Originally Posted by bingbang View Post
Yes, Galileo was an unscientific oaf. If I had to use two words to describe Galileo it would certainly be unscientific oaf....

lol, I love how you are hating on Galileo for teaching theory as fact......when he was RIGHT and it WAS FACT.
Bing:

That's incorrect, Sir. Galileo was anything but an unscientific oaf. He was a pretty bright scientist, for his day, even though he got much of his science wrong.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06342b.htm

God bless,
jd
  #158  
Old Sep 22, '10, 10:06 am
Leela Leela is offline
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Default Re: Pope's astronomer dismisses ID and says Church was "spectacularly wrong" in its treatment of Galileo

Quote:
Originally Posted by JDaniel View Post
Leela:
Why you so silly? You know we cannot pronounce you a heretic!
I am not asking for a pronouncement. Presumably there is a definition of what a heretic is. I would imagine that I must fit it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JDaniel View Post
We just know you are not necessarily a good person.
What is it exactly that you know?
Are you a better person than I?
  #159  
Old Sep 22, '10, 10:08 am
JDaniel JDaniel is offline
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Default Re: Pope's astronomer dismisses ID and says Church was "spectacularly wrong" in its treatment of Galileo

Quote:
Originally Posted by LittleSoldier View Post
Well, being as one can't prove a theory, I do have something against this approach.

Galileo wanted fame and he didn't follow scientific method - as you say, he published his theory as if it had been proved, as fact, when he should never have done that. He also spoofed and mocked the Pope, his onetime friend.

Not a nice guy nor a particularly intelligent one in terms of common sense. He might as well have walked into house arrest before he was sentenced to it. He built his own prison.
LS:

Please read the following: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06342b.htm

God bless,
jd
  #160  
Old Sep 22, '10, 10:23 am
MindOverMatter2 MindOverMatter2 is offline
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Default Re: Pope's astronomer dismisses ID and says Church was "spectacularly wrong" in its treatment of Galileo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leela View Post
Are you a better person than I?
I would like to sing a song on exactly how much better than you I am leela.

Anything you can do I can do better
Anything you can do I can do better than you.
Yes I can. (the song repeats etc..etc.)
  #161  
Old Sep 22, '10, 10:26 am
JDaniel JDaniel is offline
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Default Re: Pope's astronomer dismisses ID and says Church was "spectacularly wrong" in its treatment of Galileo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leela View Post
I am not asking for a pronouncement. Presumably there is a definition of what a heretic is. I would imagine that I must fit it.

What is it exactly that you know?
Are you a better person than I?
Leela:

I can't judge that completely, but, just from what I've seen in these Catholic Forums, I'd say, "Yes." I pray that we are equally as good as one another, but, I can examine your posts and, therefore, your thoughts, and make the unscientific hypothesis that I maybe I concede too much. Unless you have been playing "devil's advocate" all these years.


God bless,
jd
  #162  
Old Sep 22, '10, 10:26 am
Leela Leela is offline
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Default Re: Pope's astronomer dismisses ID and says Church was "spectacularly wrong" in its treatment of Galileo

Quote:
Originally Posted by JDaniel View Post
LS:

Please read the following: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06342b.htm

God bless,
jd
This part was interesting:

"... it is undeniable that the ecclesiastical authorities committed a grave and deplorable error, and sanctioned an altogether false principle as to the proper use of Scripture."
  #163  
Old Sep 22, '10, 10:32 am
JDaniel JDaniel is offline
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Default Re: Pope's astronomer dismisses ID and says Church was "spectacularly wrong" in its treatment of Galileo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leela View Post
This part was interesting:

"... it is undeniable that the ecclesiastical authorities committed a grave and deplorable error, and sanctioned an altogether false principle as to the proper use of Scripture."
Leela:

Yes it is. Twenty-one days in a life of luxury, I should be so maligned! Maybe that's the problem: he was not allowed to stay there for the balance of his life! That is quite a punishment, come to think of it.


God bless,
jd
  #164  
Old Sep 22, '10, 10:37 am
JDaniel JDaniel is offline
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Default Re: Pope's astronomer dismisses ID and says Church was "spectacularly wrong" in its treatment of Galileo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leela View Post
This part was interesting:

"... it is undeniable that the ecclesiastical authorities committed a grave and deplorable error, and sanctioned an altogether false principle as to the proper use of Scripture."
Leela:

See . . . that's the difference between you and me. I feel bad for the Church. You, on the other hand, feel bad for the bad treatment of a moron. Why can't people behave?

God bless,
jd
  #165  
Old Sep 22, '10, 10:41 am
Tantum ergo Tantum ergo is offline
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Default Re: Pope's astronomer dismisses ID and says Church was "spectacularly wrong" in its treatment of Galileo

Know what I found interesting? The fact that the quote you pulled, Leela, was not in reference to GALILEO HIMSELF.

Let's see the rest of what you pulled out of context, shall we? You pull out this:

it is undeniable that the ecclesiastical authorities committed a grave and deplorable error, and sanctioned an altogether false principle as to the proper use of Scripture."


Where though was this in the article?

In these circumstances, Galileo, hearing that some had denounced his doctrine as anti-Scriptural, presented himself at Rome in December, 1615, and was courteously received. He was presently interrogated before the Inquisition, which after consultation declared the system he upheld to be scientifically false, and anti-Scriptural or heretical, and that he must renounce it. This he obediently did, promising to teach it no more.
Then followed a decree of the Congregation of the Index dated 5 March 1616, prohibiting various heretical works to which were added any advocating the Copernican system. In this decree no mention is made of Galileo, or of any of his works. Neither is the name of the pope introduced, though there is no doubt that he fully approved the decision, having presided at the session of the Inquisition, wherein the matter was discussed and decided. In thus acting, it is undeniable that the ecclesiastical authorities committed a grave and deplorable error, and sanctioned an altogether false principle as to the proper use of Scripture. *****OH LOOK, THAT IS WHERE YOUR QUOTE CAME FROM, LEELA. Galileo and Foscarini rightly urged that the Bible is intended to teach men to go to heaven, not how the heavens go. At the same time, it must not be forgotten that, while there was as yet no sufficient proof of the Copernican system, no objection was made to its being taught as an hypothesis which explained all phenomena in a simpler manner than the Ptolemaic, and might for all practical purposes be adopted by astronomers. What was objected to was the assertion that Copernicanism was in fact true, "which appears to contradict Scripture". It is clear, moreover, that the authors of the judgment themselves did not consider it to be absolutely final and irreversible, for Cardinal Bellarmine, the most influential member of the Sacred College, writing to Foscarini, after urging that he and Galileo should be content to show that their system explains all celestial phenomena — an unexceptional proposition, and one sufficient for all practical purposes — but should not categorically assert what seemed to contradict the Bible, thus continued:
I say that if a real proof be found that the sun is fixed and does not revolve round the earth, but the earth round the sun, then it will be necessary, very carefully, to proceed to the explanation of the passages of Scripture which appear to be contrary, and we should rather say that we have misunderstood these than pronounce that to be false which is demonstrated.
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