Name one Catholic teaching that contradicts Scripture

MariaG · #1 Jun 5, '05, 5:12 pm

Although I know this has been discussed at length before, there are several new people who have said this recently. I think it is time to start a new thread again. Shall we make a list here that you wish to discuss and then start a new thread for each doctrine that a person believes is unscriptural?

Name one doctrine of the Catholic Church that contradicts Scripture. One that in fact does not have an implicit teaching in Scripture.

I am a Catholic that loves to "find it in the Bible". If anyone can show me one doctrine of the Catholic Church that contradicts scripture, I'll leave today.

Maria

RyanL · #2 Jun 5, '05, 5:37 pm

Excellent challenge! I'll second!

RyanL

carol marie · #3 Jun 5, '05, 6:10 pm

OK, I'm sort of afraid I'm going to get beat up here.. but you asked so please be nice....

I don't think that Mary remaining sinless is supported biblically and I believe a good argument could be made against it w/ "ALL have sinned & fall short of the glory of God." And I know this has been addressed in a kajillion threads already.. It is my opinion that this is one of those issues that we accept because the Church says so.. (which I do) but I would be hard pressed to support it using the Bible.

MariaG · #4 Jun 5, '05, 6:16 pm

Since you are the first, we'll discuss yours here and make links for others

Quote:

When discussing the Immaculate Conception, an implicit reference may be found in the angel’s greeting to Mary. The angel Gabriel said, "Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you" (Luke 1:28). The phrase "full of grace" is a translation of the Greek word kecharitomene. It therefore expresses a characteristic quality of Mary.

http://www.catholic.com/library/Imma..._and_Assum.asp

Do you see how that Scripture implicitly implys the Immaculate conception?

Eden · #5 Jun 5, '05, 6:18 pm

For MariaG!

CARose · #6 Jun 5, '05, 6:27 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by carol marie

... I don't think that Mary remaining sinless is supported biblically and I believe a good argument could be made against it w/ "ALL have sinned & fall short of the glory of God." And I know this has been addressed in a kajillion threads already.. It is my opinion that this is one of those issues that we accept because the Church says so.. (which I do) but I would be hard pressed to support it using the Bible.

Hi Carol Marie,

I don't recall the Chapter, verse of the scripture you're referring to, but I think you need to look at it again, this time in context. What is being referred to here is that all nations, all people have sinned, no one group is better than another in retaining a sinless disposition. Certainly scripture is not suggesting that infants have sinned or that those who are unable to form intent have sinned.

I think we are quite well able to support this, at a minimum to ensure that it doesn't contradict scripture. But even more so, as suggested by MarieG, scripture even supports it. However, as Catholics we know that not everything has been recorded in scripture. Read the end of John. He states right there that if all were to be recorded it would require a ton of books (paraphrasing on my part).

Hope this helps,

CARose

MariaG · #7 Jun 5, '05, 6:33 pm

Further,

From CA Library Immaculate Conception and Assumption
The traditional translation, "full of grace," is better than the one found in many recent versions of the New Testament, which give something along the lines of "highly favored daughter." Mary was indeed a highly favored daughter of God, but the Greek implies more than that (and it never mentions the word for "daughter"). The grace given to Mary is at once permanent and of a unique kind. Kecharitomene is a perfect passive participle of charitoo, meaning "to fill or endow with grace." Since this term is in the perfect tense, it indicates that Mary was graced in the past but with continuing effects in the present. So, the grace Mary enjoyed was not a result of the angel’s visit. In fact, Catholics hold, it extended over the whole of her life, from conception onward. She was in a state of sanctifying grace from the first moment of her existence.

FuzzyBunny116 · #8 Jun 5, '05, 6:36 pm

All have sinned? What about babies who are below the age of reason? And no one denies that Mary falls short of the glory of God.

RyanL · #9 Jun 5, '05, 6:41 pm

Quote:

Rom 3:23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

This is, I believe, what you're refering to. This verse refers to personal sin (i.e., sins which we have committed), correct? What if I could show you an exception?

ME: How about Jesus?

YOU: "Yeah...but He's God"

ME: True, and Mary is the "Mother of God", but that's not the issue. Jesus is also 100% man. This verse says all have sinned.

YOU: "Well...Jesus is an exception."

ME: Ahhh....so we're making exceptions! What if I could show you millions of exceptions?

YOU: "Yeah, right!"

ME: The mentally impaired and the very young are all incapable of personal sin, as they are not of "the age of reason". So, there are millions on the planet right now who have not sinned, and are thereby an exception to the "all". This statement is a general principle, and not an absolute rule.

To tack onto what MariaG already said:
In Luke 1:28, the angle of the Lord says to Mary, "...Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee..." (KJV). We have to understand something before we discuss this... In the OT (and in the new), when a person's name is changed by God it shows who they are, as well as what they are called. God changed Abram's name to Abraham (father of many), Sarai's to Sarah (princess), Jacob became Israel, Jesus was called Emmanuel, Simon became Peter, etc. EVERY TIME this occurs, God is telling us something about the person and their role in His plan. So it is with Mary. Let us return to Luke 1:28. "thou that art highly favoured" is a translation of a single Greek word - "Kecharitomene". What the angel said, then, was, "Hail, Kecharitomene, the Lord is with thee...". What the angel is doing here is calling Mary by her title (much as Jesus was called Emmanuel). Without further adu, let me tell you what this word means. Kecharitomene comes from the Greek word 'chartoo', or 'graced'. Kecharitomene, however, is the perfect passive participle, which shows a completeness with a permanent result. This specific word is unique to Luke 1:28, and we're about to see why:

Quote:

Accord: The Greek perfect tense denotes the present state resultant upon a past action (New Testament Greek for Beginners, p. 187).http://www.biblequestions.org/archives/BQAR264.htm

Quote:

The perfect tense in Greek is a past tense with a special meaning: it is used to refer to a past action which has effects felt in the present.http://www.pcea.asn.au/WPG/Christ_Crucified.htm

Quote:

Kecharitomene denotes continuance of a completed action (H. W. Smyth, Greek Grammar [Cambridge: Harvard University Press, 1968], p. 108-109, sec 1852:b; also Blass and DeBrunner, p.175).

What the angel says (to belabor the point) is "Hail, one who has been perfectly and completely filled with the grace of God at some point in the past, with continued effects in the present, the Lord is with thee...".
This is the revelation of the Immaculate Conception of Mary. Like Adam and Eve before her, Mary was created with a special grace, completely free from original sin - in other words, perfectly graced (i.e., without stain or blemish). Again, this was not her doing, but God, her Savior, doing this "great thing" for her (Luke 1:49). This is how we can say that Mary was sinless, yet still needed a Savior (Luke 1:47).
Now, re-read the angelic encounters in the NT and OT, and see that typically the angel will say, "Do not be afraid!" as the opening line. Here, however, we see something different. Here, we see the angel saying, "HAIL!". Rather than a command, the angel comes to Mary with a request. Rather than intimidation, the angel comes to Mary a humble servant who greets her with a pledge of allegiance. Can you see how this 14 year old girl was greatly troubled at what manner of greeting this was (Luke 1:29)? She didn't know God's plan at that point! All she knew was this angel of the Lord was greeting her with a greeting the likes of which was never before uttered. Without this understanding, it's easy to see how this kind of greeting could be troubling to a young Jewish girl! But WITH this understanding, we can now see exactly what God was revealing to us through His appointed messenger.

God bless you and keep you,
RyanL

carol marie · #10 Jun 5, '05, 6:42 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by FuzzyBunny116

All have sinned? What about babies who are below the age of reason? And no one denies that Mary falls short of the glory of God.

I don't understand.. how could she "fall short of the glory of God" if she was perfect and without sin?

And regarding babies who are below the age of reason.. I've been told that they are born with original sin so if they died prior to baptism, they would not go to heaven. It seems that Mary is put into a different catagory altogether and not at all like babies or those beyond the capablility to reason.

RyanL · #11 Jun 5, '05, 6:46 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by carol marie

I don't understand.. how could she "fall short of the glory of God" if she was perfect and without sin?

If you read St. Luis deMontfort's "True Marian Devotion" paragraph 1, chapter 1, he explains how compared to God, Mary is a speck of dust - no, nothing! - when compared to the glory of God. This is a very Catholic sense... She was, after all, merely a creature.

RyanL

FuzzyBunny116 · #12 Jun 5, '05, 6:50 pm

Angels have not sinned, nor were born with orginal sin, and they fall short of the glory of God. The point is, though, "all have sinned" does not literally mean everyone has sinned, and thus it is open to the possibility of Mary being sinless.

RyanL · #13 Jun 5, '05, 6:51 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by carol marie

And regarding babies who are below the age of reason.. I've been told that they are born with original sin so if they died prior to baptism, they would not go to heaven. It seems that Mary is put into a different catagory altogether and not at all like babies or those beyond the capablility to reason.

This refers to "contracted sin" (original sin is contracted sin), which is different than "personal sin" (which is committed sin, i.e., done with the full consent of the will).

As for if babies go to heaven - we entrust them to the endless mercy of God. The Church has never said that they "won't go to heaven".

MariaG · #14 Jun 5, '05, 6:52 pm

Quote:

posted by Carol Marie

And regarding babies who are below the age of reason.. I've been told that they are born with original sin so if they died prior to baptism, they would not go to heaven. It seems that Mary is put into a different catagory altogether and not at all like babies or those beyond the capablility to reason.

The Catholic Church does not have an official position on what happens to babies who die without baptism. Officially, we entrust them to the mercy of God. Speculation has been things like limbo, and attain heaven but do not have beautific vision.

Edit: why can't I get this off bold!!! I hate it when I am not smarter than my computer.

Eden · #15 Jun 5, '05, 6:54 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by carol marie

I don't understand.. how could she "fall short of the glory of God" if she was perfect and without sin?

Because she is not God but she started off in a better state than we.