Faith alone or not?

[ncgolf]

Originally Posted by Calvin 95

you would never know if you were ever saved because how would you know when you were credited with His righteousness? According to Scripture it is at the moment one truly believes in His heart the gospel according to Scripture.

Where does Scripture point to believing in one's heart?

Why all the stuff about truly believing in order to be a true believer? I don't ever recall truly believing to be a scriptual term. Is just believing enough?

Again I asked before a scenario concerning a believer and non-believer, one being a credited righteous fornicator and one not. Please explain sin, it's effect and who is saved in this context? Did the believer sin? Did the non-believer sin? Is there punishment or should there be punishment for this? Who receives this punishment? Does repentance factor into this?

These are real life questions to real life situations ... does your theology apply to real life?

And don't say a believer can't do this ... Moon disagrees with you.

[Cat Herder]

Originally Posted by Calvin 95

Problem: God can only save man through the blood of the Son; not anyway He wants or else God changes and cannot be trusted and He does not change; so the only way one is saved is by Grace through faith in Christ ALONE, ALone, & alone.

You correctly note that God cannot change (Malachi 3:3-6). So when He instituted the Passover as a perpetual ordinance—it is forever binding.

You have never celebrated the Passover.

You will say that Calvary has replaced the Passover. How so? We'll find out.

You believe you participate; that is different because i would ask the question how do you know? Where is it written? How could you possibly bear anything that deals with the wrath of God?

The Holy Spirit by the Prophet Malachi:

The only clean oblation/pure offering that has ever existed, or ever will exist, is Christ. How is Christ offered in every place, at every time, by every person?

Apparently it is not fnished since everyone keeps going to the buffet for more. There you go adding works to your salvation.

You have made the Passover obligation void by your human tradition. God absolutely wants us to go back for more. The Apostles went back for more every Sunday (Acts 20:7). What happens to those who do not go back for more?

They lose their access to Calvary and so their salvation.

Bad theology; you had nothing to do with the cross, nothing, the romans, nor the Jews; God was pleased to "CRUSH" His Son; it was God the Father that put Him on that cross; not you.

Actually, (s)he did crucify Jesus. So did you. So did I. I am doing my best not to crucify Him anymore and I hope that you are too.

[paul c]

Originally Posted by Calvin 95

.

Shh to my understanding is the thread is about Faith alone or not and the Catholic faith denies this truth in spite of the overwhelming evidence in Scripture as has been presented throughout the thread; but hey to each is own destiny. Nope; that is wrong, to each is the destiny to which God chooses. Thank God He is driving.

Calvin, you and Moondweller think that everytime the word Faith is used in scripture it supports your theory that all that matters is Faith. This simply is not true. You have complete blinders on when any other requirement for salvation is discussed in scripture. We have shown you again and again and again that more is required than just Faith. Perhaps someday your eyes will be opened. For now, you are just convenient foils for us to us to demonstrate that Calvin was wrong.

Originally Posted by Calvin 95

Problem: God can only save man through the blood of the Son; not anyway He wants or else God changes and cannot be trusted and He does not change; so the only way one is saved is by Grace through faith in Christ ALONE, ALone, & alone.

Who are you to put limits on God?

Originally Posted by Calvin 95

Quote:
God chooses to work through humans to bring about salvation. He doesn't "have to", He wanted to. When Paul says "I become all things to all men that by all means I might save some", he certainly does not mean that he saves them. He is aware that, when he makes himself available to God, God can work through him to bring about salvation in others.

Originally Posted by Calvin 95

So much for the idea that Peter can forgive sins or any other Apostle because the very forgiveness of sins, which removes the deserved penalty of those sins, is by God alone and as you have rightly alluded to indirected it is Paul doing whatever he can to be used by God to give the MESSAGE that God uses to save, the Gospel. Please share with the rest. You almost sounded like a Protestant here.

Calvin, if only you could see these arguements through another man's eyes...
When Peter or any of the apostles, or Catholic priests today forgive sins, they do so in the name of Jesus Christ, not on their own authority.

Originally Posted by Calvin 95

That's good because God the Son and God the Father imposed limits onto themselves and He said He is seated at the right hand to make intercession for His own and until the Father makes all His enemies as a footstool. So who has the authority and power to bring Christ down?

No one has the authority and power to bring Christ down. Christ is with his Church for all time, as he promised. Unfortunately, you don't seem to understand the power of God. He is everywhere at once, and Jesus is God. He is not just
sitting at the right hand of the Father. He is omnipresent.

Originally Posted by Calvin 95

You believe you participate; that is different because i would ask the question how do you know? Where is it written? How could you possibly bear anything that deals with the wrath of God? I won't get into the literal eating of Christ; there are so many assumptions that have to be made that are not in Scripture one would literally have to create a revision of the Bible to make Christ a door, a shepherd of sheep, a wellspring and a whole host of other things to take your interpretation literally as opposed the actual context, which id figuratively looking at the cross and do this in remembrance and what did they really do, ate bread, the drinking of wine was added later.

When Jesus said in John 6 that you had to eat his body and drink his blood, the people most certainly knew that he was being literal because it caused most of his disciples to abandon him. It was written that Only the Apostles had sufficient faith in him to give him the benefit of the doubt and stayed with him. They were rewarded later at the last supper, when Jesus explained the rest to them, that the bread and wine would become his body and blood when consecrated in memory of him. You are at a severe disadvantage being outside the Chruch because you have no one to put the pieces of the bible together for you.

Originally Posted by Calvin 95

Apparently it is not fnished since everyone keeps going to the buffet for more. There you go adding works to your salvation.

Works are required for the sanctification that is required to enter heaven..

[paul c]

Originally Posted by Calvin 95

Bad theology; you had nothing to do with the cross, nothing, the romans, nor the Jews; God was pleased to "CRUSH" His Son; it was God the Father that put Him on that cross; not you.

He died for our sins, did he not. If we had not sinned, he would not have had to die on the cross.

Originally Posted by Calvin 95

.

As opposed to blending into a crock pot? 1) Saved = justification, 2) being saved = sanctification, 3) will be saved = redemption. You precepts are you must have all 3 completed, be righteous before you are saved contrary to the very words of the only One who can save a sinner and therefore what gospel is this? Tell me the good news here? You would need a safety net with this theology and you would never know if you were ever saved because how would you know when you were credited with His righteousness? According to Scripture it is at the moment one truly believes in His heart the gospel according to Scripture..

This is a matter of not understanding the word saved in the same way. When the Bible talkes about being saved, it means that your sins are forgiven and you start life anew. This happens at baptism and each time we recieve the sacrament of reconciliation. You treat saved and Going to heaven as the same thing. But they are not. You need to be saved to go to heaven, it is true But you need to stay in the state of grace once you have been saved, becoming sanctified in the process, in order to go to heaven. If you fall from grace and are not reconciled to God sacramentally, you will surely be condemned to Hell.

Originally Posted by Calvin 95

Problem: this verse has nothing to do with the Lord's Supper; completely out of context - not a good thing to twist the Scripture in such a manner especially since Jesus states exactly what He meant later on, which is a spiritual meaning using a carnal example as He often did. And if I recall correctly He specifically stated the "flesh profits nothing"; just for those who might be confused.

I have shown you above that your interpretation is wrong. It is you who must twist scripture in order to defend your theology. You will find the truth of this on judgement day if you are not convinced sooner.

Originally Posted by Calvin 95

Problem: you are not telling the truth here about your practices; you work the Sacrament in the hopes of adding a meritorious grace, which there is no such animal in human terms since there is nothing good in us to merit anything and left to ourselves we would never turn to God (Romans 3).

What are you talking about. We were made in the image and likeness of God. How could there be nothing good in us? You have a very low opinion of both God and humanity.

[panevino]

Originally Posted by Calvin 95

......

Problem: this verse has nothing to do with the Lord's Supper; completely out of context - not a good thing to twist the Scripture in such a manner especially since Jesus states exactly what He meant later on, which is a spiritual meaning using a carnal example as He often did. And if I recall correctly He specifically stated the "flesh profits nothing"; just for those who might be confused.

Exo 29:32 And Aaron and his sons shall eat the flesh of the ram, and the bread that [is] in the basket, [by] the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.33 And they shall eat those things wherewith the atonement was made, to consecrate [and] to sanctify them: but a stranger shall not eat [thereof], because they [are] holy.

Rom 8: 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.6 For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace.

[paul c]

It seems to me that this discussion is going nowhere, just as it has for the last 500 years.

Calvin and Moondweller bring up every scriptural passage that mentions Faith in regards to salvation and extrapolate that to support two heresies:
1) That all you need to be saved is to have Faith in Jesus
2) That being saved is the equivalent of going to heaven.

Catholics dutifully bring up the dozens of passages that show that other things are also required to be saved (Baptism, the eucharist, grace, followign the commandments, doing works of mercy, loving God and neighbor, etc).

We also dutifully show that beingsaved means that your sins are forgiven and that you have new life, but you must STAY in the state of grace after this or you won't go to heaven.

This is of course to no avail, because Calvin and Moondweller simply explain these scriptural passages away as not pertaining to them, since they have Faith.

It got me to thinking how exquisitely deceitful Satan can be. These men, who in their hearts love Christ, have been led to believe that they are serving him by pulling men away from the sacraments and good works that are actually required to save them. And think of the brilliance of the fundamental lie behind all this: " Believe that Christ will save you. Don't worry about what he told you in terms of loving God and others, Don't worry about the sacraments. All that matters is that you trust in the Lord to save you...Don't worry about justice. Focus on God's mercy. That's all you need. Its that EASY, You are bad people . If not for God's mercy, you couldn't be saved anyway , so believe in that, Its your only chance."

Its brilliant because it makes disobedience seem like it is serving God and of course its appeal is that it takes away men's responsiblity and need to work on their own holiness. Instead, it allows men to do what they want to do never understanding the consequences until it is too late.

[twb1621]

Originally Posted by moondweller
But Peter says of the believer, no longer in Adam, but born again in Christ, the Last Adam, through faith:
1 Pet 1:3-5 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."
Are you allowed to disagree with someone you call your first "Pope?" Shouldn't the teachings of all your subsequent Popes (and you) be in agreement with your first Pope? How can this be?You have your "clear scripture" regarding inheriting the kingdom of God in the above quote from the one you call your first Pope. Now you need to deal with it.That's because you disagree with the Scriptures that teach that one's entrance into the kingdom of God is based on one's present salvation, imputed righteousness and becoming a child of God by believing in Christ alone. But instead you want to believe entrance is based on WORKS alone. IOW, one's future entrance is based on one's present behavior.

Your argument is not with me but with the one you call your first Pope. Good luck on that. You still have to deal with Peter and his "papal" teaching..

　You just will not respond to my posts.

What you ignore in an effort to maintain your desired adopted beliefs can be pointed out very simply with the same quote submitted. Where you insisted as in red above and underlined so emphatically “…to an inheritance imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.",
you ignore the previous statement, "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again “to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,” , It does not say living certainty, it says “hope”. Explain what is the necessity of “hope” if it is as you suggest without possibility of loss?
You also ignore the last part of the verse “…for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time”, not revealed now for all permanently to assume there is a free ticket that we can not lose through sin.
　
As far as your reversion to anti-Catholic attacks against the Faith through accusations targeting the pope, please supply the information and sources as to your accusations. I also point out this is a obvious sign you are suffering from lack of credible support in your attempt to credibly support your interpretations.

[LittleSoldier]

I've been lurking and have read many of the posts in this thread. I just wanted to say that I am very impressed with the posters here who have explained the Catholic position, especially Cat Herder because of the large amount of Scripture he/she provided.

I have enjoyed this thread and have learned a lot about Catholicism and I appreciate all the posts. You have made me stronger in my faith and helped me to understand Truth.

Calvin, you mentioned that you love Moondweller as a brother. I submit that I also love Moondweller and I love you, too. As Catholics we love all people, not just those who agree with us.

I feel confident in stating that every Catholic here loves you, knows you have a soul, were created by a loving God, are precious to that God (and to us), and hopes to be with you in heaven.

God's peace and joy to us all!!

[moondweller]

Originally Posted by paul c

It seems to me that this discussion is going nowhere, just as it has for the last 500 years.

Calvin and Moondweller bring up every scriptural passage that mentions Faith in regards to salvation and extrapolate that to support two heresies:
1) That all you need to be saved is to have Faith in Jesus
2) That being saved is the equivalent of going to heaven.

Yes on the first one. But it's true faith in Jesus, not merely possessing knowledge of Jesus and not believe in what He actual DID, once for all, through His sacrificial work on our behalf. There's a big difference between believing things about Jesus and actually believing "in Him" As Abraham believed "in the Lord" and He (the Lord" reckoned (credited) it (his belief in Him) to him (Abraham) as righteousness (Gen. 15:6).

As for the second one, it is true that all the "saved" are just that "SAVED." And it is true that ALL the saved will enjoy heaven. For eternity they'll be with their "SAVIOR." See the similarity between the words "saved" and "Savior?"

The crux of the problem is that Catholicism has no concept of the word "saved" (a completed act of God). The following quote is the reason for that:

Catholics dutifully bring up the dozens of passages that show that other things are also required to be saved (Baptism, the eucharist, grace, followign the commandments, doing works of mercy, loving God and neighbor, etc).

We also dutifully show that being saved means that your sins are forgiven and that you have new life, but you must STAY in the state of grace after this or you won't go to heaven.

IOW, Catholic salvation is based on the works of men. Hence, according to Catholic tradition "salvation" is a future event based on the Catholic's present performance. And then you turn around and vehemently deny that Catholicism teaches salvation by works. Yet every Catholic believes he/she must personally do things in this life in order to procure his/her future salvation in the next life (including suffering in Purgatory if need be (most expect it). Of course it is taught that all who enter Purgatory will be saved, but they must first personally suffer in order to be cleansed of "venial" sins, else no entrance into heaven is permitted them (one last work on their part). Hence, no faith in the Biblical teaching that it's the blood of Christ that cleanses men of all sins upon belief in Him.

This is of course to no avail, because Calvin and Moondweller simply explain these scriptural passages away as not pertaining to them, since they have Faith.

Here's what we believe in a nutshell:

Titus 2:11-14 "For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation TO all men (not saving all men), instructing us (who have believed in Christ and are saved) to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age (which is proper behavior for the saved, not requirements to be saved), looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession (believers have been purchased and purified by His blood, that's redemption), zealous for good deeds (but not "saved" by those good deeds.)

This is congruent with Paul's basic doctrine on salvation:

Eph 2:8 "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, {it is} the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."

And the behavioral part is in verse 10 which identifies the "saved by grace through faith" in vss. 8-9 as God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus FOR good works," but not BY those works.

It got me to thinking how exquisitely deceitful Satan can be.

There's nothing deceitful nor Satanic at all about Paul's doctrinal message ("gospel") about salvation by grace alone through faith in Christ alone. It's what was proclaimed from the very beginning, starting from Jerusalem, to the Jews first, and then to the Gentiles (Greeks). It's rightfully called the "gospel" (good news).

[twb1621]

Originally Posted by Calvin 95

..

*I hope everyone wakes up and realizes MoonDweller is dead on accurate.

A distorted acceptance of another man’s opinion you offer. One of MD’s positions is here quoted that you agree with. What you also ignore in an effort to maintain your desired adopted beliefs can be pointed out very simply with the same quote. Where insisted as in red above and underlined so emphatically “…to an inheritance imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.",
you ignore the previous statement, "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again “to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,” , It does not say living certainty, it says “hope”. Explain what is the necessity of “hope” if it is as you suggest without possibility of loss?
　　

*Justification by God; another wonderful gift cannot be missed by a serious believer and student of Scripture and lover of God. If it is not by faith alone, then what is it by?

A true believer who actually knows the correct teaching of Scripture in the love of God would not have such a question to raise nor disregard so much of scripture in an effort to avoid facing his or her own misinterpretation such as you reflect in your expression of bias. Read further…

*Faith and works? Faith and cross your fingers and hope not to die? If someone tries to comeback with James 2; then that person shows further ignorance of Scripture and of what James is affirming and will have to explain away Paul in some twisted manner because that person will put James in conflict with Paul. If that were the case then burn your Bible; it is worthless.

Arrogance supported by bias breeds ignorance my friend. There is no “explaining away” one verse for another, all Scripture teaches in unison with each other and Scripture, when interpreted correctly, does not conflict with itself. The resentment those such as yourself have with the word “works” is you do not comprehend the difference in the reference to works Paul (as with the Pharisee perspective) speaks of and the Works we are called to. We do not throw away Paul to validate our reference to works referred throughout Scripture including that of James and we do not throw away James to justify what we know Paul speaks of. Both are legitimate points of Teaching without conflict, both are references distinctive in there intended meaning.

The obedience we are instructed to is to live according to Christ’s Teachings and He teaches us not only by the life He lived but by examples He offered us. Avoidance of sin and works of charity in humility with love for one another in our love of Him are our expression of faith and its completeness, the fulfillment of that faith, which He demands of us. Grace through faith is not a free ticket to sin yet guarantee of salvation regardless of our actions beyond Baptism into Christ. The works of charity in humility Jesus Himself lived by and instructed all to obey are necessary for us to retain (not earn) that salvation Christ offers us so that all men MAY be saved. These are the expressions of love of each other in love of Christ.

Salvation is through grace in faith, yes, but if you think that is all there is you are sadly misguided. According to the teachings of Christ, it is the expression of faith through works of love in charity, and humility, in the love of Christ that we are to live by. If you do not understand this, it is because you were led to believe that “works“ always refers to works of the law, which it does not. Christ refers us to the works of Charity… Consider the following passage from James;

James CH2; 15 If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day, 16 and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well," but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it? 17 So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead. 18 Indeed someone might say, "You have faith and I have works." Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works. 19 You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble. 20 Do you want proof, you ignoramus (Notice the level of frustration James experience's as reflected here), that faith without works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works. 23 Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called "the friend of God." 24 See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Now consider the following examples Christ gives us as works of love and the fact that without them, we can loss the gift of salvation;

continued next post....

[twb1621]

continued from previous post:

Originally Posted by Calvin 95

..

Matthew CH25; 31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne, 32 and all the nations will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 34 Then the king will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.' 37 Then the righteous will answer him and say, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?' 40 And the king will say to them in reply, 'Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.'

41 Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.' 44 Then they will answer and say, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?' 45 He will answer them, 'Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.' 46 And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

James CH2; 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.

Romans CH2; 5 By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God, 6 who will repay everyone according to his works: 7 eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works, 8 but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness.
　 The works we speak of are works of love in charity toward others, humbly, not boastfully, in the love of Christ. These works are well explained through examples Christ gave us above. They are not by any means an attempt to "earn" salvation, but rather to live up to our responsibility to the salvation gifted to us through the passion, death and resurrection of Christ.
　
First, where did the written contents of your Bible originate (and I do not mean who Inspired them) ?
Second, as your faith is one of those born of the protestant reformation, where is either the establishment of your faith or the so called “reformation” justified in scripture?

I asked this previous question because Scripture does clearly warn of others distorting the Word of God, false prophets and teachers leading many away from His True Church, both from within and outside of her, but I am not aware of anything in Scripture that remotely supports the remobilization, establishment or founding of any new church or system of beliefs by any man or women or even reforming the existing Church at any time. In fact, Jesus made it clear only He by the Authority given Him by the Father, would reconcile all things in Heaven and on Earth to Himself THROUGH Himself.

Thirdly, do you believe you or anyone holding your adopted beliefs could understand the teachings and intent of the written word better than the Apostolic Fathers who were taught directly by the Apostles as either adults or children in most cases, who learned not from written word, but by Apostolic Preaching and attending discipleship, who could for this reason, determine the true understanding intended of those teachings, what texts were authentic according to those teachings, men who succeeded the Apostles and even their immediate successors and who we know were guided by the Holy Spirit within the union of the Early Church Fathers over the first four centuries to determine which Gospel texts were in fact authentic Apostolic teachings and the Inspired Word of God and which were not?

And what comparable support does Calvin’s opinions stem from in opposition to the Catholic Faith in comparison to the Apostolic Fathers and their common cooperative writings of the true Faith Founded by Jesus Christ in His Blood as established by the chosen Apostles and their institution of the succession to their authority until Christ‘s return as they were commissioned?

[twb1621]

Originally Posted by moondweller

Yes on the first one. But it's true faith in Jesus, not merely possessing knowledge of Jesus and not believe in what He actual DID, once for all, through His sacrificial work on our behalf. There's a big difference between believing things about Jesus and actually believing "in Him" As Abraham believed "in the Lord" and He (the Lord" reckoned (credited) it (his belief in Him) to him (Abraham) as righteousness (Gen. 15:6).

As for the second one, it is true that all the "saved" are just that "SAVED." And it is true that ALL the saved will enjoy heaven. For eternity they'll be with their "SAVIOR." See the similarity between the words "saved" and "Savior?"

The crux of the problem is that Catholicism has no concept of the word "saved" (a completed act of God). The following quote is the reason for that:IOW, Catholic salvation is based on the works of men. Hence, according to Catholic tradition "salvation" is a future event based on the Catholic's present performance. And then you turn around and vehemently deny that Catholicism teaches salvation by works. Yet every Catholic believes he/she must personally do things in this life in order to procure his/her future salvation in the next life (including suffering in Purgatory if need be (most expect it). Of course it is taught that all who enter Purgatory will be saved, but they must first personally suffer in order to be cleansed of "venial" sins, else no entrance into heaven is permitted them (one last work on their part). Hence, no faith in the Biblical teaching that it's the blood of Christ that cleanses men of all sins upon belief in Him.Here's what we believe in a nutshell:

Titus 2:11-14 "For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation TO all men (not saving all men), instructing us (who have believed in Christ and are saved) to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age (which is proper behavior for the saved, not requirements to be saved), looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession (believers have been purchased and purified by His blood, that's redemption), zealous for good deeds (but not "saved" by those good deeds.)

This is congruent with Paul's basic doctrine on salvation:

Eph 2:8 "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, {it is} the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."

And the behavioral part is in verse 10 which identifies the "saved by grace through faith" in vss. 8-9 as God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus FOR good works," but not BY those works.There's nothing deceitful nor Satanic at all about Paul's doctrinal message ("gospel") about salvation by grace alone through faith in Christ alone. It's what was proclaimed from the very beginning, starting from Jerusalem, to the Jews first, and then to the Gentiles (Greeks). It's rightfully called the "gospel" (good news).

why not explain posts #775 and #776 also? Or will you avoid these as the past....

[moondweller]

Originally Posted by twb1621

It does not say living certainty, it says “hope”. Explain what is the necessity of “hope” if it is as you suggest without possibility of loss?

It's a LIVING hope. A "living hope" is not a "hope so" kind of "hope." It's an optimism based on the fact of the bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ, He being the "first fruits" of the bodily resurrection, unto glory, of all who have believed.

It's expressed as a "living hope" because we have yet to experience the consummation of it. But for now we "walk by faith" in the revealed truth of it. But not with an uncertain faith.

You also ignore the last part of the verse “…for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time not revealed now for all permanently to assume there is a free ticket that we can not lose through sin.

Again, this is referring to the consummation of the salvation every believer NOW possesses. ALL that is GIFTED with salvation, though faith in Jesus Christ, is yet to be revealed at His return for those who are His. As the Apostle John wrote:

1 John 3:2-3 "Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is. And everyone who has this hope {fixed} on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure."

As far as your reversion to anti-Catholic attacks against the Faith through accusations targeting the pope, please supply the information and sources as to your accusations.

I have not attacked your Pope in any way. I merely pointed out that you believe that Peter was your first Pope and he (Peter) taught a "for certain" inheritance for all believers, which is imperishable, undefiled, and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for those who are protected by the power of God (1 Pet. 1:3-5).

I also point out this is a obvious sign you are suffering from lack of credible support in your attempt to credibly support your interpretations.

The best way to "interpret" 1 Pet. 1:3-5 is not to "interpret" it at all. Just BELIEVE it.

[paul c]

Originally Posted by moondweller

Originally Posted by paul c
It

Yes on the first one. But it's true faith in Jesus, not merely possessing knowledge of Jesus and not believe in what He actual DID, once for all, through His sacrificial work on our behalf. There's a big difference between believing things about Jesus and actually believing "in Him" As Abraham believed "in the Lord" and He (the Lord" reckoned (credited) it (his belief in Him) to him (Abraham) as righteousness (Gen. 15:6).

As for the second one, it is true that all the "saved" are just that "SAVED." And it is true that ALL the saved will enjoy heaven. For eternity they'll be with their "SAVIOR." See the similarity between the words "saved" and "Savior?"

The crux of the problem is that Catholicism has no concept of the word "saved" (a completed act of God). The following quote is the reason for that:

Said another way. Catholics believe that Saved means freed from prior sin and are made a new man. I other words, you get a restart. Which is indeed a completed action. Calvinists believe saved means that you are going to heaven.

Originally Posted by moondweller

IOW, Catholic salvation is based on the works of men. Hence, according to Catholic tradition "salvation" is a future event based on the Catholic's present performance. And then you turn around and vehemently deny that Catholicism teaches salvation by works. Yet every Catholic believes he/she must personally do things in this life in order to procure his/her future salvation in the next life (including suffering in Purgatory if need be (most expect it). Of course it is taught that all who enter Purgatory will be saved, but they must first personally suffer in order to be cleansed of "venial" sins, else no entrance into heaven is permitted them (one last work on their part). Hence, no faith in the Biblical teaching that it's the blood of Christ that cleanses men of all sins upon belief in Him.

Catholics DO believe that good works are required to enter heaven. Catholics DONT believe that works alone are sufficient to get to heaven. With you, there are only two choices: works OR faith. The reality is it requires works AND faith, (and baptism and love, and the eucharist, etc)

Originally Posted by moondweller

Here's what we believe in a nutshell:
Titus 2:11-14 "For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation TO all men (not saving all men), instructing us (who have believed in Christ and are saved) to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age (which is proper behavior for the saved, not requirements to be saved), looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession (believers have been purchased and purified by His blood, that's redemption), zealous for good deeds (but not "saved" by those good deeds.)

Its prett telling that you have to add more to the statement than Paul did to make it say what you wanted.

Originally Posted by moondweller

This is congruent with Paul's basic doctrine on salvation:
Eph 2:8 "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, {it is} the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."
And the behavioral part is in verse 10 which identifies the "saved by grace through faith" in vss. 8-9 as God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus FOR good works," but not BY those works.

Right. this works in Catholic theology too. We are saved through faith when we get baptized, whether we were good or evil in our actions.

Originally Posted by moondweller

There's nothing deceitful nor Satanic at all about Paul's doctrinal message ("gospel") about salvation by grace alone through faith in Christ alone. It's what was proclaimed from the very beginning, starting from Jerusalem, to the Jews first, and then to the Gentiles (Greeks). It's rightfully called the "gospel" (good news).

you see, you have been decieved into thinking that Calvin's statement actually came from Paul. You see, he never said that salvation was by Grace ALONE through faith in Christ ALONE. Those "Alones' were added by Calvin. And if you think about it, you claim that two things are done alone- a error in logic.

[Cat Herder]

Originally Posted by moondweller

The crux of the problem is that Catholicism has no concept of the word "saved" (a completed act of God).

The crux of the problem is that Calvinism has no concept of the word LOVE.

Faith alone doesn't save. Love does. If you love Christ, you will do what?

"Ah," you will say, "but if you have faith you will do the works because they were prepared beforehand."

What if I refuse to do them?

"Then you don't have faith."

Already you have admitted that faith alone doesn't save. But let's take it further. Why is it that I cannot choose to have faith but do not do works? "Because you were predestined to either be saved, and so have faith, or to not be saved and so not have faith."

So you have something other than faith--predestination--that is the actual alleged cause of salvation. Faith, like works, is just a side effect in your theory. So when you say salvation is by faith alone, you are not being forthright. If you were honest you would say that salvation is by predestination alone. But then you'd have to explain why you are wasting so much time and ink here on CAF trying to "evangelize." In Calvinism, peoples' salvation is determined before they even exist. Faith, works, love, and anything that happens in life is totally irrelevant, and thus, so is all of your work here.

But let's take it a bit farther.

If faith is really an infallible marker of salvation, what about the unborn victims of abortion? The mentally infirm? Children below the age of reason who meet a premature end? All of these are not even capable of having faith as you define it. Does that mean they all go to hell?

No. And I will tell you why.

No one is predestined to damnation. And no, faith is not only not the sole cause of salvation, it is not even a valid indicator of who is saved.

Love is.