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  #1  
Old Jan 22, '11, 2:33 pm
ForeverRome500 ForeverRome500 is offline
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Default Did Mary have other children besides Jesus...

i believe the virgin birth of Jesus of course...

but did Mary also have other children, this time with Joseph

was Mary really a virgin her whole life

Matthew 13:55-56 "Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas? 56 "And His sisters, are they not all with us? Where then did this man get all these things?" 57 And they took offense at Him. But Jesus said to them, "A prophet is not without honor except in his home town, and in his own household."


Mark 6:3 "Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James, and Joses, and Judas, and Simon? Are not His sisters here with us?" And they took offense at Him. 4 And Jesus said to them, "A prophet is not without honor except in his home town and among his own relatives and in his own household."


Mt 12:46 While He was still speaking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers were standing outside, seeking to speak to Him. 47 And someone said to Him, "Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside seeking to speak to You." 48 But He answered the one who was telling Him and said, "Who is My mother and who are My brothers?" 49 And stretching out His hand toward His disciples, He said, "Behold, My mother and My brothers! 50 "For whoever does the will of My Father who is in heaven, he is My brother and sister and mother."


etc. etc.


http://www.bible.ca/cath-mary-had-many-children.htm



i mean its all there, i don't know if its the right interpertation but is it true..

was Mary truly a virgin her whole life... she did have a virgin birth with Jesus, but after that.. her other kids???



Matthew 1:23-25

As clear as if it said, "kept a virgin until wedding day."

24 And Joseph arose from his sleep, and did as the angel of the Lord commanded him, and took her as his wife, 25 and kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus.
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  #2  
Old Jan 22, '11, 3:00 pm
Thomas_Aquinas Thomas_Aquinas is offline
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Default Re: Did Mary have other children besides Jesus...

Mary had no other children. The "brother of the Lord" are cousins or relatives. We know for sure who the mother of at least two of them are. Matthew 13 mentions four of the "brothers": James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?


According to the Bible, the Virgin Mary's "sister" (actually her cousin) is the mother of two of these "brothers of the Lord". If you turn to Matthew, chapter 27, vs. 56, we read that "Mary, the mother of James and Joseph" was present. If you compare this with the parallel Gospel accounts, you will find that this "Mary" is reported to be the Blessed Mother's sister - "Mary wife of Cleophas". So we know that James and Joseph are relatives of Jesus, but not sons of Jesus' mother.

The word "brother" that is used does not necessarily mean blood brother, but can also mean cousin, or kinsman. That is how it is used with the brothers of the Lord

The first person to claim that Mary had other children was Helvidius the heretic, who used the same arguments of the Protestants today. St. Jerome wrote a letter agains him, which can be read here.
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  #3  
Old Jan 22, '11, 3:18 pm
Lutheranteach Lutheranteach is offline
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Default Re: Did Mary have other children besides Jesus...

It's unknowable. I've heard the arguments for an and against.....the "he had brothers and sisters" side always seemed more compelling and plausible to me, but not overwhelmingly so. I also think the point isn't all that relevant.
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Old Jan 22, '11, 3:40 pm
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Default Re: Did Mary have other children besides Jesus...

No! Mary had no other children besides Jesus.
I believe that the whole purpose of Mary's creation, Her Immaculate Conception, etc. was for her unique status as Mother of God.
She is referred to as Virgin Mary which means she died a virgin having miraculously given birth to Our Lord.
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  #5  
Old Jan 22, '11, 4:17 pm
Defender1 Defender1 is offline
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Default Re: Did Mary have other children besides Jesus...

Mary had no children besides Jesus .People need to understand in the Bible that brothers means cousins . Many protestants will try to claim James was the brother of Jesus . However both James in the gospel had parents that were not Mary and Joseph and had brothers . All of the other names mentioned in the gospel as brothers of the Lord were cousins.There are books written about Jesus having brothers . That does not make it true . You can publish anything these days.It does not have to be true . In the finding of Jesus in the temple at age 12 conversing with the adults , no mention of any brothers and sisters . Are protestants to tell us that they waited to have children at least 12 years after Jesus ? Joseph was considerably older then Mary. When Jesus was on the cross he gave Mary to the apostle John and John to the apostle Mary "Behold your son ...behold your mother" . Now, it would not have made any sense for Jesus to give Mary to John if he had siblings . He would have most likely had one of his siblings take in Mary if he had any. There are important things to look at before buying the whole"Jesus had brothers" idea.Those who dig deeper then the protestant surface will find that the Catholic teaching of Mary not having any other children and Jesus not having brothers is pretty solid .
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  #6  
Old Jan 22, '11, 5:59 pm
pneuma07 pneuma07 is offline
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Default Re: Did Mary have other children besides Jesus...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ForeverRome500 View Post
i believe the virgin birth of Jesus of course...

but did Mary also have other children, this time with Joseph

was Mary really a virgin her whole life

Matthew 13:55-56 "Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas? 56 "And His sisters, are they not all with us? Where then did this man get all these things?" 57 And they took offense at Him. But Jesus said to them, "A prophet is not without honor except in his home town, and in his own household."


Mark 6:3 "Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James, and Joses, and Judas, and Simon? Are not His sisters here with us?" And they took offense at Him. 4 And Jesus said to them, "A prophet is not without honor except in his home town and among his own relatives and in his own household."


Mt 12:46 While He was still speaking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers were standing outside, seeking to speak to Him. 47 And someone said to Him, "Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside seeking to speak to You." 48 But He answered the one who was telling Him and said, "Who is My mother and who are My brothers?" 49 And stretching out His hand toward His disciples, He said, "Behold, My mother and My brothers! 50 "For whoever does the will of My Father who is in heaven, he is My brother and sister and mother."


etc. etc.


http://www.bible.ca/cath-mary-had-many-children.htm



i mean its all there, i don't know if its the right interpertation but is it true..

was Mary truly a virgin her whole life... she did have a virgin birth with Jesus, but after that.. her other kids???



Matthew 1:23-25

As clear as if it said, "kept a virgin until wedding day."

24 And Joseph arose from his sleep, and did as the angel of the Lord commanded him, and took her as his wife, 25 and kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus.

Hi Romeforever500.

I was just wondering about the relationship between these two beliefs:
1) The virginal conception, ie Mary’s ante partum virginity
2) Mary having sons and daughters after Jesus in her marriage with Joseph, to be identified as the brothers and sisters quoted in the mentioned pericopes.

- The gist of 1), that is its christological meaning, is communicated in Matthew 1.20-21, within the same passage you mentioned, by an angel appeared in dream to Joseph.

an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. 21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus,[f] because he will save his people from their sins.”.

- About 2) we know his brothers did not believe Jesus during His public life

John 7:3-53 Jesus’ brothers said to him, “Leave Galilee and go to Judea, so that your disciples there may see the works you do. 4 No one who wants to become a public figure acts in secret. Since you are doing these things, show yourself to the world.” 5 For even his own brothers did not believe in him.
Mark 3.20-21 20 Then Jesus entered a house, and again a crowd gathered, so that he and his disciples were not even able to eat. 21 When his family ( Gr. oi par’autou, those by Him ) ) [b] heard about this, they went to take charge of him, for they said, “He is out of his mind.”


- We can guess that, according to 2), Mary’s (and Joseph’s) children would live with her and Jesus their infancies and adolescences, can we ?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now, if we accept what above, my point is :
unbelief appears hardly reconcilable with knowing what we just read in Matthew 1:20-21. But growing with Mary, as mother, and Jesus, as brother ( and Joseph, as father ) , appears IMHO hardly reconcilable with NOT knowing that.

Would the three keep that secret to all the other children all the time ? No family tale ever came up about Bethlehem, Egypt, or even only what happened in Jerusalem when Jesus was 12 ? Nothing of that was ever implicitly discernable to any of those siblings living years and years with the Incarnated and His and their own mother ?

I hope this can help.
In Christ.

P7.
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  #7  
Old Jan 22, '11, 6:19 pm
1ke 1ke is offline
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Default Re: Did Mary have other children besides Jesus...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lutheranteach View Post
It's unknowable.
This is not correct. The perpetual virginity of Mary is a doctrine of the Church.

Therefore, we can know with certainty that she did not have any children but Jesus.
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  #8  
Old Jan 23, '11, 9:22 am
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Randy Carson Randy Carson is offline
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Default Re: Did Mary have other children besides Jesus...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ForeverRome500 View Post
i believe the virgin birth of Jesus of course...but did Mary also have other children, this time with Joseph?

was Mary really a virgin her whole life?
Brothers of Jesus, Not Sons of Mary

Many non-Catholics deny the Perpetual Virginity of Mary by referring to passages of scripture that mention the “brothers” of Jesus. A rigorous analysis of scripture, however, proves their position is false. Consider the following:

1. Jesus had a “brother” named James.


"Isn't this the carpenter's son? Isn't his mother's name Mary, and aren't his brothers James, Joseph, Simon and Judas?”(Matthew 13:55)

2. James, the Lord's “brother”, is an apostle.

“Then, after three years I went up to Jerusalem to visit Cephas, and remained with him fifteen days. But I saw none of the other apostles except James, the Lord's brother. (Galatians 1:18-19)

3. There are two apostles named James.

“When morning came, he called his disciples to him and chose twelve of them, whom he also designated apostles: Simon (whom he named Peter), his brother Andrew, James, John, Philip, Bartholomew, Matthew, Thomas, James son of Alphaeus, Simon who was called the Zealot, Judas son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor.”(Luke 6:13-16)

4. One James (the brother of John) is not the uterine brother of Jesus; his father is Zebedee.

James son of Zebedee and his brother John (to them he gave the name Boanerges, which means Sons of Thunder)” (Mark 3:17)

5. The other apostle named James is not the uterine brother of Jesus; his father is Alpheus.

“And when it was day, he called his disciples, and chose from them twelve, whom he called apostles: Simon, whom he named Peter and Andrew his brother, and James and John and Philip and Bartholomew, and Matthew and James the son of Alpheus, and Simon who was called the Zealot, and Judas the son of James and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor.” (Luke 6:13-16)

6. Therefore, neither apostle named James was a uterine brother of Jesus.

7. The man named Joseph (or Joses) is not the uterine brother of Jesus; his mother is Mary and his brother is James. Therefore, this Mary is the wife of Alphaeus.


“Many women were there, watching from a distance. They had followed Jesus from Galilee to care for his needs. Among them were Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedee's sons.” (Matthew 27:55-56)

8. Judas is not a uterine brother of Jesus because he is the son of James.

“When they arrived, they went upstairs to the room where they were staying. Those present were Peter, John, James and Andrew; Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew; James son of Alphaeus and Simon the Zealot, and Judas son of James.” (Acts 1:13)

9. While Matthew 15:35 declares James, Joseph and Judas to be the “brothers” of Jesus, it has been demonstrated from scripture that they are NOT uterine brothers of the Lord. From this, it is apparent that scripture must be using the term “brothers” to mean relatives other than sons of Mary.
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  #9  
Old Jan 23, '11, 9:23 am
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Default Re: Did Mary have other children besides Jesus...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ForeverRome500 View Post
Matthew 1:23-25

As clear as if it said, "kept a virgin until wedding day."

24 And Joseph arose from his sleep, and did as the angel of the Lord commanded him, and took her as his wife, 25 and kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus.
Matthew 1:24-25: Until she brought forth a son

Matthew 1:24-25
24When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. 25But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son.

The word until here just says what happened up to the time of Christ’s birth. It doesn’t imply anything about what happened after that, although our modern use of the word until seems to imply that. For an example of this, look at 2 Samuel 6:23, which says, "Michal the daughter of Saul had no children till the day of her death." We’re obviously not supposed to assume that she had children after she died.
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  #10  
Old Jan 23, '11, 1:14 pm
Tantum ergo Tantum ergo is offline
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Default Re: Did Mary have other children besides Jesus...

With respect to our Protestant brothers and sisters, even the first Protestants like Luther and Calvin believed that Mary was a perpetual virgin.

So can y'all tell me how a doctrine of Mary's perpetual Virginity is held by all of Christendom (that means, both the Western <Roman> Church and the Eastern <Orthodox> Church, all of Christendom), for centuries between the first written evidence of the doctrine (and taking into account that oral belief precedes written by some time --

how for centuries people had been reading the gospels, reading the very same words we read today about Mary, Joseph, and Jesus and the 'brethren' and having no trouble at ALL understanding the Scripture as not saying directly that Mary had any children other than Jesus. . .

But somehow these people were too stupid to understand Scripture???
They were too dumb to 'get'Scripture which is presented as being so 'plain as day?'

Isn't that rather hard to believe?

Why were people living in the 4th century, only about as far removed from the events of Christ's life, death, and resurrection as we are from the English Civil War, the 30 years' war, the Plymouth Compact. .. somehow 'less' able to understand a point of Scripture that had been taught to them lo those many years than people living more than 1000 years later???

Where were the people (who would have had great-great-great- grandparents who had told the stories of the time of Christ) to say, "What is going on with these priests trying to tell us Mary was ever-Virgin? Great great grandpappy was next door neightbor to Mary and Joseph and Jesus and he saw with his own eyes Mary have kid after kid. ."

Strangely we don't hear a PEEP about that.
And why?

If the Scripture is so dang PLAIN that Mary's 'perpetual virginity' would have been seen as absolute 'bull'. . .where is the evidence that people didn't start to believe until it was 'forced' on them?

Where is the evidence that supports the position she was NOT a virgin? Where are the relics of Mary, and the 'brothers of the Lord'?

Why would the Church, if it was going to 'make changes', not CHANGE THE SCRIPTURE. . .add in a simple sentence. .. and Mary remained ever-Virgin? Or take OUT any reference to 'brother' and SUBSTITUTE 'relative"? It would have been SIMPLE to do that. Why would the Church (if it was 'changing' things') leave such Scripture in, eh?
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  #11  
Old Jan 23, '11, 1:52 pm
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Default Re: Did Mary have other children besides Jesus...

Uncle Jesus.

If Mary had other children besides Jesus. That means Jesus had half brothers and sisters who were related to him (unlike if Joseph had children from a previous marriage). These half brothers and sisters probably had children of their own, which would make Jesus a biological uncle to them. Potentially, if they kept having children, there could be some people in existence today who have Jesus as their great great great ... great uncle.
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Old Jan 23, '11, 3:38 pm
paul c paul c is offline
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Default Re: Did Mary have other children besides Jesus...

The Gospels, if taken together, explain the relationship of Jesus, Mary, Joseph and the so called brothers with some clarity:


First Lets look earlier at the Gospel
Matthew 4: 21-22 He walked along from there and saw two other brothers, James, the son of Zebedee, and his brother John. They were in a boat, with their father Zebedee, mending their nets. He called them, and immediately they left their boat and their father and followed him.
This establishes that James and John are the sons of Zebedee

Then lets look a little more forward in the Gospel
Matthew 13: 54-56 He came to his native place and taught the people in their synagogue. They were astonished and said, "Where did this man get such wisdom and mighty deeds? Is he not the carpenter's son? Is not his mother named Mary and his brothers James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas? Are not his sisters all with us? Where did this man get all this?"

This establishes that James, Joseph, Simon and Judas are relative of the holy family

Now lets look at the three Crucifixion narratives that describe the three women at the cross with Mary:
Matthew 27:55-56 There were many women there, looking on from a distance, who had followed Jesus from Galilee, ministering to him. Among them were Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of James and Joseph, and the mother of the sons of Zebedee.

Mark: 15: 40 There were also women looking on from a distance. Among them were Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of the younger James and of Joses, and Salome.

John 19: 25 Standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary of Magdala

While it is possible that they are talking about different women, it seems most likely that they are in fact the same three women being at the cross, just described in different ways. This allows us to identify them by their different relationships.

I've color coded this to make it more obvious .
Mary Magdalene is obvious throughout.
Salome is the Bless Virgn Mary's sister, the wife of Zebedee and the mother of James and John
Mary, is the wife of Clopas and the mother of James and Joseph, previously described as the relatives of Jesus.

So if you put all the pieces together, it shows that the Jesus's 'brothers' are in fact the cousins of Jesus, through Joseph's brother Clopas

But it also brings up another interesting point.
James and John, the sons of Zebedee and Salome, are also Jesus's cousins through the Blessed Virgin Mary's sister Salome. This might explain why Jesus gave the Blessed Virgin Mary to St. John at the cross. At that point, she was a widow and he was among her closest relative so it would have been a natural thing to do.

Last edited by paul c; Jan 23, '11 at 3:56 pm.
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Old Jan 23, '11, 4:10 pm
paul c paul c is offline
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Default Re: Did Mary have other children besides Jesus...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy Carson View Post
Brothers of Jesus, Not Sons of Mary

Many non-Catholics deny the Perpetual Virginity of Mary by referring to passages of scripture that mention the “brothers” of Jesus. A rigorous analysis of scripture, however, proves their position is false. Consider the following:

1. Jesus had a “brother” named James.


"Isn't this the carpenter's son? Isn't his mother's name Mary, and aren't his brothers James, Joseph, Simon and Judas?”(Matthew 13:55)

2. James, the Lord's “brother”, is an apostle.

“Then, after three years I went up to Jerusalem to visit Cephas, and remained with him fifteen days. But I saw none of the other apostles except James, the Lord's brother. (Galatians 1:18-19)
You have to be a little careful here; This verse:
18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to confer with Cephas and remained with him for fifteen days.
19 But I did not see any other of the apostles, only James the brother of the Lord

does not necessarily read that James was counted among the 12 apostles, although it could be read that way. If Clopas and Alpheus are the same man, and I believe Clopas is the Hebrew form of the greek Alphaeus, then we have a stronger case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy Carson View Post

3. There are two apostles named James.

“When morning came, he called his disciples to him and chose twelve of them, whom he also designated apostles: Simon (whom he named Peter), his brother Andrew, James, John, Philip, Bartholomew, Matthew, Thomas, James son of Alphaeus, Simon who was called the Zealot, Judas son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor.”(Luke 6:13-16)

4. One James (the brother of John) is not the uterine brother of Jesus; his father is Zebedee.

James son of Zebedee and his brother John (to them he gave the name Boanerges, which means Sons of Thunder)” (Mark 3:17)

5. The other apostle named James is not the uterine brother of Jesus; his father is Alpheus.

“And when it was day, he called his disciples, and chose from them twelve, whom he called apostles: Simon, whom he named Peter and Andrew his brother, and James and John and Philip and Bartholomew, and Matthew and James the son of Alpheus, and Simon who was called the Zealot, and Judas the son of James and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor.” (Luke 6:13-16)

6. Therefore, neither apostle named James was a uterine brother of Jesus.

7. The man named Joseph (or Joses) is not the uterine brother of Jesus; his mother is Mary and his brother is James. Therefore, this Mary is the wife of Alphaeus.


“Many women were there, watching from a distance. They had followed Jesus from Galilee to care for his needs. Among them were Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedee's sons.” (Matthew 27:55-56)

8. Judas is not a uterine brother of Jesus because he is the son of James.

“When they arrived, they went upstairs to the room where they were staying. Those present were Peter, John, James and Andrew; Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew; James son of Alphaeus and Simon the Zealot, and Judas son of James.” (Acts 1:13)

9. While Matthew 15:35 declares James, Joseph and Judas to be the “brothers” of Jesus, it has been demonstrated from scripture that they are NOT uterine brothers of the Lord. From this, it is apparent that scripture must be using the term “brothers” to mean relatives other than sons of Mary.
The Judas named among the Apostles is possibly not the same person described by Matthew as the brother of Jesus. Afterall, We know that there is the epistle writer Jude, who is the brother of James the less, son of Alpheus (Clopas?) and this Jude is the son of James.
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