Eastern Meditation vs Catholicism

[joanofarc2008]

I have studied some Eastern Meditation in the past. When I learned it was against the teachings of the Catholic Church and why I stopped and I found ways of Catholic meditation to use. However, I am not quick to dismiss all statements and philosophies of practitioners of other religions. I think much of this comes down to discernment and knowing enough about our own faith to be able to tell what is inherently good, bad, or indifferent.

So what are your thoughts?

[Nagoda]

I train in Ninjutsu, Joan, same as you, but within the Bujinkan. So of course there is a lot of eastern meditation influence. What I tend to do is Catholicize them mentally and make major theological adjustments. For instance, although I am only a white belt, my Sensei showed me the basic Kujii Kirii for earth wind fire water and void. Sensei said that the Kujii was not magic, but rather used the elements as a visual reminder in meditation in order to get one into a certain headspace- i.e. fire for passion, earth for strength etc. So what i then did was associate each of the five Kujii that I was shown with a specific image from the Bible which I used to meditate on. My Catholicized Kujii Kiri is as follows:

Earth- Peter as the rock or God creating Adam out of the ground

Water- Moses parting the Reed Sea or Jesus commanding the storm

Fire- The Holy Spirit at Pentecost

Wind- The Breath of God or God in the form of the wind with Elijah, although I tend to exclusively associate wind with the Holy Spirit

Void- God the Father in His totality, pure and formless

[joanofarc2008]

Originally Posted by Nagoda

I train in Ninjutsu, Joan, same as you, but within the Bujinkan. So of course there is a lot of eastern meditation influence. What I tend to do is Catholicize them mentally and make major theological adjustments. For instance, although I am only a white belt, my Sensei showed me the basic Kujii Kirii for earth wind fire water and void. Sensei said that the Kujii was not magic, but rather used the elements as a visual reminder in meditation in order to get one into a certain headspace- i.e. fire for passion, earth for strength etc. So what i then did was associate each of the five Kujii that I was shown with a specific image from the Bible which I used to meditate on. My Catholicized Kujii Kiri is as follows:

Earth- Peter as the rock or God creating Adam out of the ground

Water- Moses parting the Reed Sea or Jesus commanding the storm

Fire- The Holy Spirit at Pentecost

Wind- The Breath of God or God in the form of the wind with Elijah, although I tend to exclusively associate wind with the Holy Spirit

Void- God the Father in His totality, pure and formless

I can see that - if that was what Kuji Kuri was. Yes these are aspects of the Sanshin - but Kuji Kuri is actually about aligning chakras of the body and reaching void state in the mind. One cannot reach void state in the mind while calling on the Holy Spirit.

The Sanshin are combative katas based on these five elements although I do like your Sensei's analogies.

If you want a good break down on how they are viewed I would suggest a book called The Spiritual Path of the Ninja. It is written by a someone outside of both schools that traveled and looked at many of the common place practices.

Please do not get me wrong - I am not saying that your Sensei is bad - I would never disrespect someone's teacher like that. I am just saying that actions like the kuji-in and kuji-kuri do not mix well with Catholicism at all.

Just to make sure we are on the same page definition wise - this is what I mean by Kuji-in and Kuji-kuri:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdULC...1&feature=fvwp

[Nagoda]

Originally Posted by joanofarc2008

I can see that - if that was what Kuji Kuri was. Yes these are aspects of the Sanshin - but Kuji Kuri is actually about aligning chakras of the body and reaching void state in the mind. One cannot reach void state in the mind while calling on the Holy Spirit.

The Sanshin are combative katas based on these five elements although I do like your Sensei's analogies.

If you want a good break down on how they are viewed I would suggest a book called The Spiritual Path of the Ninja. It is written by a someone outside of both schools that traveled and looked at many of the common place practices.

Please do not get me wrong - I am not saying that your Sensei is bad - I would never disrespect someone's teacher like that. I am just saying that actions like the kuji-in and kuji-kuri do not mix well with Catholicism at all.

Just to make sure we are on the same page definition wise - this is what I mean by Kuji-in and Kuji-kuri:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdULC...1&feature=fvwp

This is not what I was shown. I can see how some of these could be incompatible with Catholicism, but honestly all it seems to be is a redirection of your own energy in order to clear your mind using hand symbols and concepts associated with them. This seems very different from the Pagan concept of magick- imposing your will upon the deity using rituals. I am curious though: how are chakras- if I understand them correctly they are focal points in your body for your own spiritual energy- against the teachings of the Church? Is one not allowed to believe that they possess spiritual energy, perhaps given to them by God?

I suppose what one could do, if one was Catholc, would be to ask God to give you each of the things in the Kuji. Enlightenment wouldn't really work though- although I suppose if we redefined Enlightenment to be communion with God, it could be turned into a meditation on the Cross.

[joanofarc2008]

Originally Posted by Nagoda

This is not what I was shown. I can see how some of these could be incompatible with Catholicism, but honestly all it seems to be is a redirection of your own energy in order to clear your mind using hand symbols and concepts associated with them. This seems very different from the Pagan concept of magick- imposing your will upon the deity using rituals. I am curious though: how are chakras- if I understand them correctly they are focal points in your body for your own spiritual energy- against the teachings of the Church? Is one not allowed to believe that they possess spiritual energy, perhaps given to them by God?

I suppose what one could do, if one was Catholc, would be to ask God to give you each of the things in the Kuji. Enlightenment wouldn't really work though- although I suppose if we redefined Enlightenment to be communion with God, it could be turned into a meditation on the Cross.

Enlightenment is a term that can be believed in depending on how one defines the term and should really be delved into with a good spiritual director.

Chakras are strictly a Hindu/Buddhist belief and are completely not in line with the Catholic faith.

[Nagoda]

I understand that chakras are Hindu/Buddhist in origin and are not Christian/Catholic. Just because they are non Catholic in origin does not necessarily make them bad. Vatican II taught that all religions have some bit of the truth. The problem comes when parts of these religions are in contradiction with the teaching of the Church.

So the question then is: how specifically, do the concepts of chakras contradict the teaching of the Church- either the ex cathedra statements or the Dogmatic revelations found in the Church councils? If they do not contradict the Church's teaching, then presumably they are safe.

[joanofarc2008]

Originally Posted by Nagoda

I understand that chakras are Hindu/Buddhist in origin and are not Christian/Catholic. Just because they are non Catholic in origin does not necessarily make them bad. Vatican II taught that all religions have some bit of the truth. The problem comes when parts of these religions are in contradiction with the teaching of the Church.

So the question then is: how specifically, do the concepts of chakras contradict the teaching of the Church- either the ex cathedra statements or the Dogmatic revelations found in the Church councils? If they do not contradict the Church's teaching, then presumably they are safe.

Sorry was having computer issues:

You should probably start on the USCCB's statement on Reiki

(this is the media statement - you can look up the longer statement that will give you a much more in depth explanation should you desire)

I would also draw your attention to the following words:

"Superstition corrupts one's worship of God by turning one's religious feeling and practice in a false direction," the Guidelines state. "While sometimes people fall into superstition through ignorance, it is the responsibility of all who teach in the name of the Church to eliminate such ignorance as much as possible."

Reiki and Kuji-in both work on the same principles when it comes to Chakras. You can also go back in the apologist notes on this site and do a search for Yoga and Catholicism and find many of the same answers.

[joanofarc2008]

He said it much better -

http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=39690

I am more one that believes that once the Magisterium tells me something is inherently evil it becomes off limits. I may want to know why for discussion but I don't play with it.