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  #106  
Old Apr 24, '11, 6:39 pm
swariffin swariffin is offline
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Default Re: Who is Isa of the Quran?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hamba2han View Post
Using circular reasoning to determine the truth between Biblical and Qur'anic accounts is pretty pointless.
Your friend Elwill asked me whether the Christian using Circular Logic to defend our faith, and we have demonstrated that we DON'T. However, you have not defend your position yet. In that case, we still believe that you are using Circular Logic to defend your faith. Please open a new thread if you like, so it won't be out of topic.

Thanks for your time reading our bible. But, for sure, next time you should read the entire passage so you won't pick a verse and interpret it out of context.

I would not touch your point, because many of my brothers/sisters have helped me doing so.
  #107  
Old Apr 24, '11, 7:08 pm
FaithJoy FaithJoy is offline
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Default Re: Who is Isa of the Quran?

Bottom line, God makes sense. Why would God make a weak case of a one witness man? God had 500+ witnesses to Jesus' death, resurrection. Why wouldn't God give information to many people to write the Quran? Why only Muhammad? Why only believe one man, a man whom nobody met including generations after generations from the present time? Only Muhammad proclaimed he was a prophet. What proof does he have? Christians have a 500+ proof. Muhammad has what? Himself? Not good enough in any court of law or common sense.
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Because God did not make death, nor does he rejoice in the destruction of the living
  #108  
Old Apr 25, '11, 4:11 am
hamba2han hamba2han is offline
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Default Re: Who is Isa of the Quran?

Quote:
Originally Posted by thirddec View Post
After a while it gets irritating how often I make the effort to answer the questions posed by our Islamic brothers and sisters but when I ask a question it is just avoided . And as for Circular logic let me show you the best piece of circular logic ever

The Injeel ( gospels ) are corrupted by Christians

How do we know Muhammed is a Prophet; look in the Injeel he is spoken of there.

but how do we know that this isn't a corrupted part; it agrees with the Quran.

but wasn't the Quran written down from what Mohammed says so the Quran's validity is determined by Mohammeds ( so if the Injeel is corrupted then Muhammeds proof of prophethood is possably corrupted so the Quran can't be taken as truth )

What you have said also makes no sense; lets run this by you; Imagine you are with a friend and they get shot in the head and you call the ambulence ; they come pronounce him dead ; you take him and bury him. And a week later he comes to your house once you get over the shock ; would you need to be told by him he had raised from the dead. Especially if before this you had believed he was a very special person from God who had tried to explain to you he would be killed and would rise again in a week even though you thought he was joking about the dying and rising part. If you called your mates who had seen him dead at the funeral and buried would they not say no way your kidding it must be a trick unless i see him myself and see where the bullit hole was that we seen at the funeral were not going to believe you.

Thats basically how the event would run in todays age; It makes perfect sense . It makes more sence than God would go to all the effort Muslims would believe to save his prophet but then not even bother to preserve his scriptures ( at least to the degree necessary not to mislead )

Now why dont you do me the courtesy of answering the questions and challenge I set you or does your faith not hold up to a few basic questions and challenges. Remember as far as being a Catholic goes i'm just a normal joe blogs, no theology or scripture studies to my name. Just common sense and the guiding hand of the Holy Spirit which I pray for every night. If you can't take my challenge how would you cope with a proper christian scholar well versed in arabic and the quran?
The Qur'an that he brought to the world is really the ultimate proof that Muhammad (pbuh) is the Messenger of God.

Is it difficult to identify a play by Shakespeare.. or a musical composition by Mozart.. or a painting by Picasso?

I do not think that it would be very difficult for a connoisseur of the arts to do this because every one of these great master craftsmen of their respective trades would leave a distinctive mark in all of their masterpieces which would be identifiable as coming only from them and no one else.

Islam teaches that the Qur'an is one such 'Masterpiece' and there is indeed a way to test and ascertain whether or not it does come from the greatest 'Master' there is.

The following are all the relevant posts from the thread for anyone wishing to determine for themselves the truth of the Qur'an:

1, 13, 34, 65, 126, 131, 136, 144, 147, 162, 191, 238, 253, 258, 260, 263, 278, 301, 302, 319, 323, 336, 351, 352, 356, 361, 369

And from other threads: 1, 2, 3
  #109  
Old Apr 25, '11, 4:41 am
hamba2han hamba2han is offline
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Default Re: Who is Isa of the Quran?

..continued..

Quote:
Originally Posted by thirddec View Post
....</snip> It makes more sence than God would go to all the effort Muslims would believe to save his prophet but then not even bother to preserve his scriptures ( at least to the degree necessary not to mislead )<snip>...
Christians need to examine what Jesus (pbuh) himself says in the Bible because this is where they would be able to find the explanation to this question.

"I was sent ONLY to the lost sheep of Israel." (Matthew 15:24)

and also

"These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: 'Do NOT go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel." (Matthew 10:5-6)

What this means is that since Prophet Isa (pbuh) was sent ONLY to the lost sheep of Israel, then there really was no reason at all why Allah would need to preserve the Gospel that was given to him, was there?

The Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), on the other hand, is the Seal of the Prophets and he was sent as a Mercy for ALL of humankind and so Allah has indeed promised to protect and preserve the Qur'an till the time when the world as we know it finally comes to an end.

Say (O Muhammad): People! I am the Messenger of Allah sent to you all. .. (Al-Qur'an, 7:158)

And We have not sent you (O Muhammad) but to the whole of mankind as a giver of glad tidings and a warner, but most people have no knowledge. .. (Al-Qur'an, 34:28)

And as for the corruption of the scriptures by the Jews, the Bible has the following verses within it:

`How can you say, "We [the Jews] are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?' .. (From the NIV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)

Deuteronomy 31:25-29
25 he gave this command to the Levites who carried the ark of the covenant of the LORD :
26 "Take this Book of the Law and place it beside the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God. There it will remain as a witness against you.
27 For I know how rebellious and stiff-necked you are. If you have been rebellious against the LORD while I am still alive and with you, how much more will you rebel after I die! 28 Assemble before me all the elders of your tribes and all your officials, so that I can speak these words in their hearing and call heaven and earth to testify against them.
29 For I know that after my death you are sure to become utterly corrupt and to turn from the way I have commanded you. In days to come, disaster will fall upon you because you will do evil in the sight of the LORD and provoke him to anger by what your hands have made."


The Book of Moses predicted that the Law (Bible) will get corrupted. The Book of Jeremiah which came approximately 826 years after did indeed confirm this corruption.

Do Christians accept the validity of the above verses in their Bible?

Muslims do not have a problem accepting these verses as being true.
  #110  
Old Apr 25, '11, 5:02 am
swariffin swariffin is offline
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Default Re: Who is Isa of the Quran?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hamba2han View Post
The Qur'an that he brought to the world is really the ultimate proof that Muhammad (pbuh) is the Messenger of God.
What is your proof? Muhammad said so. Another case of Circular Logic, my friend.
  #111  
Old Apr 25, '11, 5:10 am
swariffin swariffin is offline
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Default Re: Who is Isa of the Quran?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hamba2han View Post
..continued..


Christians need to examine what Jesus (pbuh) himself says in the Bible because this is where they would be able to find the explanation to this question.

"I was sent ONLY to the lost sheep of Israel." (Matthew 15:24)

and also

"These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: 'Do NOT go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel." (Matthew 10:5-6)

What this means is that since Prophet Isa (pbuh) was sent ONLY to the lost sheep of Israel, then there really was no reason at all why Allah would need to preserve the Gospel that was given to him, was there?

The Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), on the other hand, is the Seal of the Prophets and he was sent as a Mercy for ALL of humankind and so Allah has indeed promised to protect and preserve the Qur'an till the time when the world as we know it finally comes to an end.

Say (O Muhammad): People! I am the Messenger of Allah sent to you all. .. (Al-Qur'an, 7:158)

And We have not sent you (O Muhammad) but to the whole of mankind as a giver of glad tidings and a warner, but most people have no knowledge. .. (Al-Qur'an, 34:28)

And as for the corruption of the scriptures by the Jews, the Bible has the following verses within it:

`How can you say, "We [the Jews] are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?' .. (From the NIV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)

Deuteronomy 31:25-29
25 he gave this command to the Levites who carried the ark of the covenant of the LORD :
26 "Take this Book of the Law and place it beside the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God. There it will remain as a witness against you.
27 For I know how rebellious and stiff-necked you are. If you have been rebellious against the LORD while I am still alive and with you, how much more will you rebel after I die! 28 Assemble before me all the elders of your tribes and all your officials, so that I can speak these words in their hearing and call heaven and earth to testify against them.
29 For I know that after my death you are sure to become utterly corrupt and to turn from the way I have commanded you. In days to come, disaster will fall upon you because you will do evil in the sight of the LORD and provoke him to anger by what your hands have made."


The Book of Moses predicted that the Law (Bible) will get corrupted. The Book of Jeremiah which came approximately 826 years after did indeed confirm this corruption.

Do Christians accept the validity of the above verses in their Bible?

Muslims do not have a problem accepting these verses as being true.
Another case of unfinished reading. Please go to Matthew 28 : 19 which said "Go, and make all nations become my desciple, and baptised them .......". Islam is not based on one single verse of Quran only, is it not? Islam is based on the entire Quran and Hadiths. Christianily is not based on a single verse from the Bible. Even the verse does not mean the way you said. You just pick it out from the context, my friend.

I suggest you to spend more time to give us proof that Quran is the word of God, more than just Muhammad said so.
  #112  
Old Apr 25, '11, 5:16 am
schaick schaick is offline
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Default Re: Who is Isa of the Quran?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amir the Masihi View Post
...

It's very dishonest that you twist the Scriptures of other faiths in order to suit them to your own. Forgive me if I seem rude, but I hate it when people take things out of context. Defend the Qur'an on its own merits, rather than trying to prove it with the Bible.
Truth be known the Quran can not be defended on it's own merits. Muslims must tear down other religions and their Scripture to push Islam. So funny that Mohammad said so many good things about the Holy Bible.

This is also why apostasy of Islam means death. A person is forced to be Muslim on fear of loss of life.

hamba2han -
Please don't forget that the events of Jesus' life had multiple witnesses. You must read all of the Gospel written by 4 followers of Christ to get the full story:

John 2
19 Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days.”

20 They replied, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and you are going to raise it in three days?” 21 But the temple he had spoken of was his body. 22 After he was raised from the dead, his disciples recalled what he had said. Then they believed the scripture and the words that Jesus had spoken.

Matthew 16
21 From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.

Are Muslims calling Jesus a liar?:
Matthew 17
22 When they came together in Galilee, he said to them, “The Son of Man is going to be delivered into the hands of men. 23 They will kill him, and on the third day he will be raised to life.” And the disciples were filled with grief.

[b]Matthew 20[/B
]17 Now Jesus was going up to Jerusalem. On the way, he took the Twelve aside and said to them, 18 “We are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be delivered over to the chief priests and the teachers of the law. They will condemn him to death 19 and will hand him over to the Gentiles to be mocked and flogged and crucified. On the third day he will be raised to life!”
  #113  
Old Apr 25, '11, 5:50 am
schaick schaick is offline
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Default Re: Who is Isa of the Quran?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hamba2han View Post
...
And as for the corruption of the scriptures by the Jews, the Bible has the following verses within it:

`How can you say, "We [the Jews] are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?' .. (From the NIV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)

Deuteronomy 31:25-29
25 he gave this command to the Levites who carried the ark of the covenant of the LORD :
26 "Take this Book of the Law and place it beside the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God. There it will remain as a witness against you.
27 For I know how rebellious and stiff-necked you are. If you have been rebellious against the LORD while I am still alive and with you, how much more will you rebel after I die! 28 Assemble before me all the elders of your tribes and all your officials, so that I can speak these words in their hearing and call heaven and earth to testify against them.
29 For I know that after my death you are sure to become utterly corrupt and to turn from the way I have commanded you. In days to come, disaster will fall upon you because you will do evil in the sight of the LORD and provoke him to anger by what your hands have made."


The Book of Moses predicted that the Law (Bible) will get corrupted. The Book of Jeremiah which came approximately 826 years after did indeed confirm this corruption.

Do Christians accept the validity of the above verses in their Bible?

Muslims do not have a problem accepting these verses as being true.
Deuteronomy 31:25-29 is not about corrupting of verses but of people turning away from GOD's message.

Mohammad realized this:
005.043 But why do they come to thee for decision, when they have (their own) law before them?- therein is the (plain) command of Allah; yet even after that, they would turn away. For they are not (really) People of Faith

Jeremiah 8
8 “‘How can you say, “We are wise,
for we have the law of the LORD,”
when actually the lying pen of the scribes
has handled it falsely?

Think hamba2han! How did the person writing Jeremiah know that scribes were false?

There were original copies to be compared. This is not Islam where one man collected all the various copies of the Quran and burned the ones he didn't want!

Think about how amazingly truthful it is to say that some scribes were handling GOD's Word falsely. Don't forget that scribes were also teachers so it could be there was no attempt at of falsifying records but simply their teaching, a false interpretation.
  #114  
Old Apr 25, '11, 5:55 am
schaick schaick is offline
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Default Re: Who is Isa of the Quran?

Quote:
Originally Posted by FaithJoy View Post
Bottom line, God makes sense. Why would God make a weak case of a one witness man? God had 500+ witnesses to Jesus' death, resurrection. Why wouldn't God give information to many people to write the Quran? Why only Muhammad? Why only believe one man, a man whom nobody met including generations after generations from the present time? Only Muhammad proclaimed he was a prophet. What proof does he have? Christians have a 500+ proof. Muhammad has what? Himself? Not good enough in any court of law or common sense.
YES!!

AND GOD does not change HIS mind the way allah does in the Quran. Sending one verse and then just a short time later a better verse. On top of that the first verses being peaceful and the later better verses violent!?!?
  #115  
Old Apr 25, '11, 5:58 am
sedonaman sedonaman is offline
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Default Re: Who is Isa of the Quran?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hamba2han View Post
...
Christians need to examine what Jesus (pbuh) himself says in the Bible because this is where they would be able to find the explanation to this question.
...
And here is the ultimate circular logic. The Bible is corrupt so we need the Koran, which is the true word of God. How do we know it is the true word of God? Check the Bible for the answer.

We here in this forum are hardly unique in these observations.
Quote:

...when we say: “How is it that this prophet of yours did not come in the same way, with others bearing witness to him? And how is it that God did not in your presence present this man with the book to which you refer, even as He gave the Law to Moses, with the people looking on and the mountain smoking, so that you, too, might have certainty?” – they answer that God does as He pleases. “This,” we say, “we know, but we are asking how the book came down to your prophet.” Then they reply that the book came down to him while he was asleep. Then we jokingly say to them that, as long as he received the book in his sleep and did not actually sense the operation, then the popular adage applies to him (which runs: You’re spinning me dreams.)

When we ask again: “How is it that when he enjoined us in this book of yours not to do anything or receive anything without witnesses, you did not ask him: ‘First do you show us by witnesses that you are a prophet and that you have come from God, and show us just what Scriptures there are that testify about you’,” – they are ashamed and remain silent. [Then we continue:] “Although you may not marry a wife without witnesses, or buy, or acquire property; although you neither receive a donkey nor possess a beast of burden un-witnessed; and although you do possess both wives and property and beasts of burden and so on through witnesses, yet it is only your faith and your scriptures that you hold unsubstantiated by witnesses. For he who handed this down to you has no warranty from any source, nor is there anyone known who testified about him before he came. On the contrary, he received it while he was asleep.”
Unquote
"Critique of Islam" by St. John of Damascus (c. 676 AD – 4 December 749 AD)
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/general/stjohn_islam.aspx
  #116  
Old Apr 25, '11, 7:21 am
hamba2han hamba2han is offline
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Default Re: Who is Isa of the Quran?

This poignant reminder from BibleGateway.com is just a tiny sampling of what I would consider to be *proof* of the corruption of the Bible:.

((The most reliable early manuscripts and other ancient witnesses do NOT have Mark 16:9-20.))..

.. And so then, which of the following Biblical verses is more likely to be true?

EITHER

He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to ALL creation. .. (Mark 16:15)

OR

"I was sent ONLY to the lost sheep of Israel." .. (Matthew 15:24)

and also

"These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: 'Do NOT go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel." .. (Matthew 10:5-6)

OR

.. perhaps Christians are saying that there is NO contradiction between the above Biblical verses found in Mark and Matthew?

It makes absolutely no sense at all that Jesus (pbuh) would spend the entire period of his ministry preaching only to the lost sheep of Israel and then immediately after his alleged crucifixion orders his disciples to go to all nations and preach to all people.

If the divine message that he brought was intended for all of humankind, then why couldn't he declare it in no uncertain terms right from the beginning of his mission like what Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) did?

How was the danger to his life faced by Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) any less than the danger that Prophet Jesus (pbuh) faced in carrying out his own mission?

The Lord protected Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) from his enemies and so why shouldn't He do the same for Prophet Isa (pbuh)?

If I were to accept the Christian explanation that it was all part of the grand strategy of God, then I would have to conclude that Jesus (pbuh) .. and by extension God Himself.. intentionally lied when he said "I was sent ONLY to the lost sheep of Israel" in Matthew 15:24.

I just cannot accept that it was necessary for Jesus (pbuh), or any of the Prophets of God (peace be upon them all), to lie about their mission because this is something which clearly breaks one of the Ten Commandments not to bear false witness.

How on earth is it possible that a true Prophet of God will intentionally break any of the Commandments in order to spread the Message of the Lord?

And so, there you have it folks, actual *proof & confirmation* from the dedicated research of respected Biblical scholars that the contents of the Bible has indeed been seriously altered.
  #117  
Old Apr 25, '11, 8:44 am
sedonaman sedonaman is offline
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Default Re: Who is Isa of the Quran?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hamba2han View Post
This poignant reminder from BibleGateway.com is just a tiny sampling of what I would consider to be *proof* of the corruption of the Bible:..
Then why does Islam insist on using the Bible, a *corrupt* document, to verify itself? Why can't Mohammed stop using a *corrupt* document and stand on his own alleged *perfect* theology?
  #118  
Old Apr 25, '11, 9:26 am
thirddec thirddec is offline
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Default Re: Who is Isa of the Quran?

I'm sure with a little time , I could answer every one of Hanba2hans new questions; but i'm not going to because this is a one way street as I notice often when presented with a direct question or challenge the response is always the same from muslim posters and that is to ignore it and spray a scatter gun of other questions in the hope that I forget the origional question and they might find something that I cant answer. But in the past at least others had the sense that the question ulimately would have to be answered as I wasn't going to be distracted and the thread ends with no answer from them. So Hanba2hans go back to the post where I gave you the questions and challenges or are you going to continue bravely running away post no 102 above.
  #119  
Old Apr 25, '11, 11:25 am
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GaryTaylor GaryTaylor is online now
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Default Re: Who is Isa of the Quran?

thirddec the debate which hamba2han is responding to is in direct referrence to islamic websights to refute the scripture verse. Which btw is also taken from the lacking NIV.

Nonetheless the error in this thinking is in context with reading scripture as whole and in relating to specific scripture verse its simply lacking in definition as to the "total" picture.

The purpose of Jesus Chirst on earth was not to address "only" Judaism but to take the "Word of God in the Flesh" outside of ethnic confines. Which btw obviously has happened.

Nonetheless we are still confronted with the completion of the Mission of Jesus Christ and His Church established on earth. And the existing temptation to control the powers of the world.

Relating this message to those who actually believe in the God of Abraham leaves us confronted with the reality of the prpper couse to bring Gods Word and message to mankind.

Simply put this cannot be done by raising any religion in a political realm which ultimately forces its belief on all mankind. Here we find Islam "tolerating" other beliefs with the set goal to force its belief on mankind when in the position to do so.

If this should happen or not is not the question. Whats is the consensus is this is not the intended purpose of Gods Kingdom on Earth which raises one belief above another, enslaves some, promotes violence and ultimately creates a Dictatorship and establishs a caste system. And we do now in the end this will not live because it is a lie.

Its impossible this can succeed and not serve Darkness. Which would promote this exact concept.

To revert back and forth to Bible/Quran does little to define how we shall usher in the Kingdom of God without disregarding humans we consider below us or sinners and nonbelievers.

God granted no man the authority to Judge others to this degree. God left his Mercy on the table which somehow has been reduced to a lack of human compassion through sects of Islam if not all of Islam and other thinking on earth today.

When Jesus Christ stood upon the mountian at 9000+ plus feet and looked over the Kindoms of the World and water way access. Satan offered Him power for power. All the Kingdoms of the World, this continued to mean enslavement of mankind.

Christ refused this, and this is no different than the situation we stand confronted with today. And today to we must refuse this temptation regardless of what religion it comes cloaked in. And no different than that confrontation with satan. Once again this confrontation exists.

God Bless, Gary
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"Eternal Father, I offer Thee the Most Precious Blood of Thy Divine Son, Jesus, in union with the Masses said throughout the world today, for all the Holy Souls in Purgatory, for sinners everywhere, for sinners in the universal church, those in my own home and within my family. Amen." St. Gertrude
  #120  
Old Apr 25, '11, 1:29 pm
sedonaman sedonaman is offline
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Default Re: Who is Isa of the Quran?

Quote:
Originally Posted by thirddec View Post
I'm sure with a little time , I could answer every one of Hanba2hans new questions; ...
No. You couldn't if you had forever.
Quote:
but i'm not going to because this is a one way street as I notice often when presented with a direct question or challenge the response is always the same from muslim posters and that is to ignore it and spray a scatter gun of other questions in the hope that I forget the origional question and they might find something that I cant answer. ...
I [and plenty of others] have noticed this tactic since coming to CAF several years ago. You will note that the original question was about "Isa of the Qur'an", and the discussion is now about Jesus of the Bible. They have succeeded once more in turning the question around and demanded that Christians justify their beliefs. I am convinced this is not an accident. A good portion of the Qur'an has this format:
"If they [unbelievers] say X, you [believers] respond with Y, and if they say W, you respond with Z."
This is the format they are using here; their answers are canned. Besides, the more time they get you to spend defending Christianity, the less time you have to "insult Islam and Allah's messenger", for whenever you merely challenge Mohammed, you have insulted Islam since he is the perfect Muslim.
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