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  #181  
Old Jun 1, '11, 7:55 am
elvisman elvisman is offline
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Default Re: How far can one wander from the original Church and still claim to be Christian?

cont'd.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stillchecking View Post
John, you say saved by baptism even sealed by baptism, but Elvisman in an earlier post tells me we can lose our salvation (I will answer these passages cited by Elvisman, at some time, maybe days or weeks). So according to catholicism, baptism saves, but it doesn't. I don't know but i'd guess confirmation saves too, but it doesn't. That is why there's confession to save, but it doesn't. I suppose the eucharist saves too, but it doesn't. That's why you have the annointing of the dieing, hopefully the priest can get there at your last breath, to save you, but then he leaves, you have an evil thought and the annointing fails also. According to Elvisman, you can lose your salvation. So off to purgatory we go. Back at the graveside service, we're back to square one where the priest encourages the grieving that we are saved by baptism. Ya funerals are sad for any family, but particulary so for catholics. This is a sad, dark church

We ARE saved by Baptism, as the Bible tells us (Mark 16:16, 1 Pet. 3:21). However, as with ANY free gift – we can reject it later and turn away, losing that salvation. You have YET to address the dozen or so verses that I provided which tell us this very fact.

With your comment about Purgatory it is painfully obvious that you haven’t a clue as to what the Catholic Church teaches. It is not for those who have lost their salvation but for those who ARE saved.

Finally, Christ’s Church is anything but sad and dark. Jesus called it “the light of the world” (Matt. 5:14-16). What is sad and dark is living in the PARTIAL truth of Protestantism instead of the FULLNESS of truth (Eph. 1:22-23) which is the Catholic Church.
  #182  
Old Jun 1, '11, 8:26 am
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SteveVH SteveVH is offline
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Default Re: How far can one wander from the original Church and still claim to be Christian?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stillchecking View Post
Wow, there's lots to respond to. We have different presuppositions. Your's is that the catholic church was the only church from the time of Christ to the reformation. You were not there in the 2nd, 3rd, 4th etc centuries. So you are not giving an eye witness account, but are relying upon what you read and have been told.
And you were not there in the civil war. You are relying upon what you read and have been told. Does that mean there may not have been a civil war? We have the benefit of countless witnesses who were there. Have you never read any of the early Church Father's?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stillchecking View Post
People being what they are, independent thinkers, towns scattered far and wide, it is not even logical to assume there was only one church to which everyone bended their knee.
You are thinking with a 21st century mind. No, there was one Church to which everyone bended their knee. Those that rejected the doctrines of that Church were rightly condemned as heretics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stillchecking View Post
There most certainly were christians outside the catholic church. Their names given to them by their assailants, they were called Paulicians, Arnoldists, Henricians, Petro Brussians, Albigenses, Waldenses, Ana-Baptists etc. Gee wiz there's plenty of history that has been written on this subject.
Really. And where are they today? I've never seen a Paulician Church, or an Arnoldist Church or a Henrician Church, etc. Where are they? And if they don't exist, what does that tell you in light of Christ's promise that the gates of hell would never prevail aganst His Church?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stillchecking View Post
So ya, my faith does not come from Rome or any of the reformed churches. My faith comes from the bible. My faith rejects those extra catholic teaching outside of the bible.
So you are you own interperative authority, your own Pope. You had better hope that you are infallible otherwise you have nothing on which to rely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stillchecking View Post
John, you say saved by baptism even sealed by baptism, but Elvisman in an earlier post tells me we can lose our salvation (I will answer these passages cited by Elvisman, at some time, maybe days or weeks). So according to catholicism, baptism saves, but it doesn't. I don't know but i'd guess confirmation saves too, but it doesn't. That is why there's confession to save, but it doesn't. I suppose the eucharist saves too, but it doesn't. That's why you have the annointing of the dieing, hopefully the priest can get there at your last breath, to save you, but then he leaves, you have an evil thought and the annointing fails also. According to Elvisman, you can lose your salvation. So off to purgatory we go. Back at the graveside service, we're back to square one where the priest encourages the grieving that we are saved by baptism. Ya funerals are sad for any family, but particulary so for catholics. This is a sad, dark church.
On the contrary, we are a Church of light and hope. One enters the Church through baptism "as through a door". God does not then turn us into robots by doing away with our free will. So yes, we can reject the grace we received through baptism. It is why the Church tells us that missing Mass is a mortal sin. Without the grace of God acting in us and through us on a constant basis, without being fed by the Eucharist and without being forgiven through Reconciliation we are in mortal spirtual danger. Why do you think that Paul worked out his salvation "with fear and trembling"? The doctrine of "once saved, always saved" creates spiritual peril for those who subscribe to it.
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  #183  
Old Jun 1, '11, 12:14 pm
John oxios John oxios is offline
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Default Re: How far can one wander from the original Church and still claim to be Christian?

Quote:
Stillchecking;7933485]Wow, there's lots to respond to. We have different presuppositions. Your's is that the catholic church was the only church from the time of Christ to the reformation. You were not there in the 2nd, 3rd, 4th etc centuries. So you are not giving an eye witness account, but are relying upon what you read and have been told. People being what they are, independent thinkers, towns scattered far and wide, it is not even logical to assume there was only one church to which everyone bended their knee. There most certainly were christians outside the catholic church. Their names given to them by their assailants, they were called Paulicians, Arnoldists, Henricians, Petro Brussians, Albigenses, Waldenses, Ana-Baptists etc. Gee wiz there's plenty of history that has been written on this subject.
Hi stillcheck,
And wowwwww, there's a lot of gossip and innuendo you use to reply too.

The History is they're not Christian, check again. They use to be called heresy's and heretics and still are except the non-Catholics have raised them to New historical prominence.

To be Christian, is to believe/confess that Jesus is God’s Word made Flesh: You really need to look things up prior to using them as 'proof'


[Contempt is hating something prior to investigation..... and that in my book is Sin.
No one is saying there weren't other church's with other beliefs but they were not Christian by the very definition. You haven't investigated the Roman Catholic Church, you believe without your own investigation, but rely on what you have heard about it from biased parties... yet you come into our community and tell us we are doing it all wrong? You know and only believe the stories told by non-Catholics.]


In the 2nd third centuries even in the first Century yes there were groups claiming to be Christian but not of Christ, Johns Gospel was written in defense of Christ as God in the flesh against Gnosticsm. and then there were the Judaizers who insisted on following Jewish law to be Christian. Most if not all of Pauls letters to the Church are against false teachings from people coming into the communities and preaching another Christ.

ooooo.. this is a very good example
Paulicans (not named after the apostle)

Paulicans, 650 a.d and 872 a.d in Armenia were a Christian Adoptionist sect and militarized revolt movement, also accused by medieval sources as Gnostic and quasi Manichaean Christian. They flourished between 650 and 872 in Armenia and the Eastern Themes of the Byzantine Empire. According to medieval Byzantine sources, the group's name was derived after the third century Bishop of Antioch, Paul of Samosata.[2][3]

Quasi: resembling/ seeming

Adoptionism, sometimes called dynamic monarchianism, is a minority Christian belief that Jesus was adopted as God's son (Son of God) at his baptism.
The reverence for the Cross they looked upon as heathenish. The outward administration of the sacraments of the Lord's Supper and baptism they rejected.

while they maybe far out at least they believed we are saved by Christ's Baptism.
did he say minority Christian belief??? that's not christian at all!

But if this is from whence you congregation stems from, so be it. It's not Christian and it's certainly not Catholic.

Augustine was Manichean before he discovered the Truth

Manichæism is a religion founded by the Persian Mani in the latter half of the third century. It purported to be the true synthesis of all the religious systems then known, and actually consisted of Zoroastrian Dualism, ... As the theory of two eternal principles, good and evil, ... It would therefore mean "the illustrious

I love this example Anabaptists before the Reformation??? they were formed after the reformation 16th century and these followed in their steps..but all were break-offs of the Roman Church
Baptists, Quakers, Methodists, Moravians, and others...

More than four centuries ago in Zurich, Switzerland, a new fellowship of Christian believers was formed. Martin Luther had separated himself from it but had continued the practice of infant baptism. Ulrich Zwingli also had separated from Romanism, but continued to grant to the political rulers the right to decide the policies and practices of the church.

Arnoldisits: 'Bogolism' It may have originated in a form of Manichaen belief, itself a melange of Persian Zoroastrianism and early Christian Gnostic dualism (they often retained early Christian beliefs and practices that other strands of Christianity abandoned).

These people lived in some isolated valley in France, As Walter Mapp writing around 1182 says:
"Everywhere among Christians they have lain hidden since the time of the Lord's Passion, straying in error."

[There's a community I want to use as my Communities historical beginnings ]


Quote:
So ya, my faith does not come from Rome or any of the reformed churches. My faith comes from the bible. My faith rejects those extra catholic teaching outside of the bible
They weren't extra!!! in fact Biblically based and practiced, But Luther removed six books from the Bible which went against his theology, James and Hebrews he also threw out.. but his constituents talked him out of it.
Hardly, the bible tells us man's history with God/ our Mistakes and how we overcame them.. Faith comes by Hearing.. someone taught you what they believed and what it has done for them.. it's called ' Witness'Without witness there'd be no bible at all. Your Bible come through the Authority Of Jesus Christ through His Living witness the Catholic Church. Before the Bible was the Catholic Church whom Jesus sent with all the authority of Heaven to be here when he returns.

God bless,
John
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Gossip does not allow him the right to defend himself, it condemns without trial.
  #184  
Old Jun 1, '11, 6:44 pm
John oxios John oxios is offline
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Default Re: How far can one wander from the original Church and still claim to be Christian?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stillchecking View Post
Hi John,

Thanks for your posts. I hope you understand that I can't sit here and comment on all the verses of scripture you site. I do have a life haha, and if I skipped one verse I suppose from someone I would get an ah ha!

God Bless.
Hi stillcheck,
It seems you can find the time to post reasonable response to the scriptures which back up Baptism infant or not... you can find the time to find to post excuses for your self interpreting opinion. you'll blurt it out but not interested in our response??

No response on my response to your pretexts against Baptism:

Quote:
Stilllcheck " If baptism saves, why did Paul write:

1 Cor 1:17 "For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel....

1 Cor 1:14 "I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius
Wisdom is knowledge used rightly
Pro 2:9 Then you will understand righteousness and justice and equity, every good path;
:10 for wisdom will come into your heart, and knowledge will be pleasant to your soul;


but the way you interpret scripture is far from it's meaning. It's almost laughable, but sad nonetheless.


God bless,
John
__________________
The Opponent is wise: Whenever He can, He makes use of the easiest and most effective of his weapons: Gossip.
Gossip does not allow him the right to defend himself, it condemns without trial.
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