John 16:7 Why must Jesus go first before the Spirit can come?

Prince Hal · #1 Jun 27, '11, 9:08 am

"But I tell you the truth, it is better for you that I go. For if I do not go, the Advicate will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you." [NAB]

I can see the blessings that come by the Spirit being sent. But why does Jesus have to go before the Spirit can come? It seems that the two cannot be there at the same time (I don't understand that), or that something to do with Jesus' going allows the Spirit to come: something is completed. Mmmm, but does this mean that the Spirit was not with man until the crucifixion / ascension?

Not sure where to go on this one. Can anyone assist? (Again, the NABRE notes, Ignatius Study Bible nor Orchard has any commentary on it.)

God Bless,

Hal.

Heuchler · #2 Jun 27, '11, 10:37 am

One way to look at it is that the Spirit is better for us than Christ himself. The Holy Spirit is God working in us in a way more intimate than even Christ was able to act. Christ lived with us, the Holy Spirit lives in us.
Christ had to leave because his place was in Heaven at the right hand of the Father. Why would Christ stay here for all eternity. Why not instead have all three here, the Father, Son and Spirit if it were possible? This is not the way of things. Christ was meant to ascend into Heaven so that all humanity might one day reach Heaven. The Father is meant to rule and live in Heaven. The Spirit however is meant to live within all of God's creatures so that God may be intimately connected with all of us. This is why the Spirit was sent because God wanted to be ever closer to us. Christ had to leave because it is not his place to live here on Earth forever guiding us. Hope this helps

Prince Hal · #3 Jun 27, '11, 10:46 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heuchler

One way to look at it is that the Spirit is better for us than Christ himself. The Holy Spirit is God working in us in a way more intimate than even Christ was able to act. Christ lived with us, the Holy Spirit lives in us.
Christ had to leave because his place was in Heaven at the right hand of the Father. Why would Christ stay here for all eternity. Why not instead have all three here, the Father, Son and Spirit if it were possible? This is not the way of things. Christ was meant to ascend into Heaven so that all humanity might one day reach Heaven. The Father is meant to rule and live in Heaven. The Spirit however is meant to live within all of God's creatures so that God may be intimately connected with all of us. This is why the Spirit was sent because God wanted to be ever closer to us. Christ had to leave because it is not his place to live here on Earth forever guiding us. Hope this helps

Thank you. I am grateful for your post. This helps me with why the Spirit will come, and also the place of Jesus. But why could not the Spirit be here at the same time as Jesus? The verse seems to suggest that the Spirit was not here on earth until Christ had come and then left (though the Spirit may have been here at some time in the past). Mmmm... still something confusing me.

Heuchler · #4 Jun 27, '11, 11:05 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prince Hal

But why could not the Spirit be here at the same time as Jesus? The verse seems to suggest that the Spirit was not here on earth until Christ had come and then left (though the Spirit may have been here at some time in the past). Mmmm... still something confusing me.

Well, the Spirit was here when Christ was. However, the Spirit manifested itself at Pentacost and actually began to work in the Apostles as it had with the Prophets and many others throughout the ages at that chosen time. It was only after Christ left that the Spirit could begin to work as it had been intended to help form the Church through the Apostles. The way Christ was talking he seems to be saying that the Spirit cannot begin its work while Christ is here. Essentially, you cant start building a house until you make the blueprints. The Spirit cannot come to create the Church until Christ has fulfilled his duty.

jcrichton · #5 Jun 27, '11, 2:25 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prince Hal

Thank you. I am grateful for your post. This helps me with why the Spirit will come, and also the place of Jesus. But why could not the Spirit be here at the same time as Jesus? The verse seems to suggest that the Spirit was not here on earth until Christ had come and then left (though the Spirit may have been here at some time in the past). Mmmm... still something confusing me.

..part of the problem is that we continue to view God with our limited abilities... since Yahweh God is Omnipotent, Omniscient, Transcendent, Eternal, and Spirit (among other things), God can occupy space and time both at once and fully. Wherever One is (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) the others are (Holy Trinity = One God in Three Divine Persons).

There are small windows into this coexistence:

21 When all the people were being baptized, Jesus was baptized too. And as he was praying, heaven was opened 22 and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: “You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased.” (St. Luke 3:21-22) {all 3 are present}

16 I shall ask the Father, and he will give you another Paraclete to be with you for ever, 17 the Spirit of truth whom the world can never accept since it neither sees nor knows him; but you know him, because he is with you, he is in you.

23 Jesus replied: Anyone who loves me will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we shall come to him and make a home in him. (St. John 14:16-17, 23) {all 3 present}

21 and he said to them again, 'Peace be with you. 'As the Father sent me, so am I sending you.' 22 After saying this he breathed on them and said: Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive anyone's sins, they are forgiven; if you retain anyone's sins, they are retained. (St. John 20:21-23) {2 present--but if we take into consideration St. John 16:32, we can understand that all 3 are present}

Consider the fact that there exists a schedule in which God works; He reveals Himself according to His schedule (Romans 5:6; Psalms 75:2; 1 Timothy 2:6; Hebrews 1:2)--the Father is revealed in the Old Testament (along with hints of the Son and the Holy Spirit); the Son Incarnates at the appointed time in order to fulfill His Sacrificial offering and to establish the New Covenant (one in Spirit); finally, the Holy Spirit arrives to complete the establishment of the Kingdom through the Mystical Body of Christ.

...but the question is "Why has God chosen to Reveal Himself in such manner?"

...as the old saying goes "God only knows!"

Maran atha!

Angel

Prince Hal · #6 Jun 28, '11, 7:45 am

I may have the answer - or at least a sensible answer.

I was listening this morning to part of a lecture series by Professor Tim Gray. You can download it for free from EWTN. It is on the Gospel according to John.

Anyway, he gives this answer:

1. God breathed His Spirit into Adam - the breath of life.
2. Adam sinned and the Spirit left.
3. God wanted to continue to be with man, so He put His Spirit in the tabernacle.
4. The Tabernacle later became the Temple.
5. But man had only limited access to the presence of the Spirit - just the High Priest and then just on the Day of Atonement (Yom Kippur) and then only part of the day.
6. So it was sin that was keeping the Spirit from man.
7. Jesus therefore had to die, be resurrected and ascend into Heaven to redeem man from sin before the Spirit could come.

Sounds very plausible to me. I am a little confused that it is not in the Ignatius Study bible or the NAB with footnotes, or even Orchard.

But apparently there is a quote from Blessed John Paul II who says that it is through the wounds of the crucifixion that the Spirit can come. I have not found that qoute, but certainly it would add great credence to the opinion of Professor Gray.

God Bless,

Hal.

Mort Alz · #7 Jun 28, '11, 8:50 am

"One way to look at it is that the Spirit is better for us than Christ himself. The Holy Spirit is God working in us in a way more intimate than even Christ was able to act. Christ lived with us, the Holy Spirit lives in us.
Christ had to leave because his place was in Heaven at the right hand of the Father. Why would Christ stay here for all eternity. Why not instead have all three here, the Father, Son and Spirit if it were possible? This is not the way of things. Christ was meant to ascend into Heaven so that all humanity might one day reach Heaven. The Father is meant to rule and live in Heaven. The Spirit however is meant to live within all of God's creatures so that God may be intimately connected with all of us. This is why the Spirit was sent because God wanted to be ever closer to us. Christ had to leave because it is not his place to live here on Earth forever guiding us. Hope this helps"

I'm not sure how true that is. "Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you..." 2 Corinthians 13: 5

Prince Hal · #8 Jun 28, '11, 10:36 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mort Alz

"One way to look at it is that the Spirit is better for us than Christ himself. The Holy Spirit is God working in us in a way more intimate than even Christ was able to act. Christ lived with us, the Holy Spirit lives in us.
Christ had to leave because his place was in Heaven at the right hand of the Father. Why would Christ stay here for all eternity. Why not instead have all three here, the Father, Son and Spirit if it were possible? This is not the way of things. Christ was meant to ascend into Heaven so that all humanity might one day reach Heaven. The Father is meant to rule and live in Heaven. The Spirit however is meant to live within all of God's creatures so that God may be intimately connected with all of us. This is why the Spirit was sent because God wanted to be ever closer to us. Christ had to leave because it is not his place to live here on Earth forever guiding us. Hope this helps"

I'm not sure how true that is. "Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you..." 2 Corinthians 13: 5

Thank you so much. A number of people age with you. There is an order. Christ incarnate, then takes his place in Heaven. The Holy Spirit living in us, once Christ's work is done. The key event however seems to be perhaps not Christ's leaving, but the event that causes Him to leave - His crucifixion, resurrection and ascension.

God Bless,

Hal.

Prince Hal · #9 Jun 28, '11, 1:59 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prince Hal

Thank you so much. A number of people age with you. There is an order. Christ incarnate, then takes his place in Heaven. The Holy Spirit living in us, once Christ's work is done. The key event however seems to be perhaps not Christ's leaving, but the event that causes Him to leave - His crucifixion, resurrection and ascension.

God Bless,

Hal.

I meant to say: "A number of people agree with you." Of course we all "age" with you too.