Catholic FAQ


Latest Threads
newest posts



Go Back   Catholic Answers Forums > Forums > Catholic Living > Vocations
 

Welcome to Catholic Answers Forums, the largest Catholic Community on the Web.

Here you can join over 400,000 members from around the world discussing all things Catholic. Membership is open to all, Catholic and non-Catholic alike, who seek the Truth with Charity.

To gain full access, you must register for a FREE account. Registered members are able to:
  • Submit questions about the faith to experts from Catholic Answers
  • Participate in all forum discussions
  • Communicate privately with Catholics from around the world
  • Plus join a prayer group, read with the Book Club, and much more.
Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free. So join our community today!

Have a question about registration or your account log-in? Just contact our Support Hotline.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search Thread Display
  #16  
Old Jul 2, '11, 11:02 am
jwinch2 jwinch2 is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: January 10, 2011
Posts: 6,875
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Dominican Third Order?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Batfink View Post
I actually meant one of Tim's other books Sing a New Song.

I Call You Friends ia very good, but it's not so much about Dominican spirituality specifically. I got confused because I also have the French version of ICYF, which contains essays from the English SANS. Sorry! But, on the plus side, if you have already purchased ICYF, it's still an excellent read.
I haven't purchased either yet but I appreciate the heads up. I have gotten so many books lately that it will take me literally years to read them all but that doesn't seem to stop me from getting more..
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old Jul 3, '11, 2:28 pm
jwinch2 jwinch2 is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: January 10, 2011
Posts: 6,875
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Dominican Third Order?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Batfink View Post

Yes, because we are Dominicans. We have the same charism as the entire Domincan family. It's not like the friars are fully fledged Dominicans and we're Dominican-lite or something, we're all Dominicans together following the same charism.
I have doing quite a bit of reading and studying on the Order lately along with reading several articles on the Dominican Laity. A question pops up from the readings that I would like to get your comments on.

First, I read multiple articles talking about the changing of the purpose and focus of the Dominican Laity to one that embraces more of the apostolic mission of the Order from what was described my multiple authors as a group of lay persons who were living the contemplative parts of the order but not the preaching or study parts of the order other than by witness to living a holy life. I have read multiple articles talking about how this situation needed to change in order to make the Lay Dominicans all that they were supposed to be and to enhance their ability to assist with the mission of the order in preaching the gospel in the world.

Most of these articles are multiple decades old. For example, the first one was written by a Dominican priest and was penned in the 1960's. The next was 1970, then 1978, then 1985. There is the appearance from the articles and letters that things were moving in that direction but I can find nothing of this process following that time which illustrates how LAy Dominicans are assisting the Friars in the preaching of the gospel in a more active way as was called for repeatedly in the documents I mentioned earlier.

So, how about it? Have things changed, gotten better and so on? If so, how? Can you provide some examples of how things have changed and ways that the laity is involved in the apostolic mission of the order that they were not 10 years ago? 20? 30?


Thanks in advance. I look forward to your response!

Jason
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old Jul 3, '11, 8:14 pm
ReluctantSeeker ReluctantSeeker is offline
New Member
 
Join Date: September 7, 2008
Posts: 11
Default Re: Dominican Third Order?

Jason,

As I was reading through those articles you attached, I was wondering the same thing. Do you have any other articles, even if they don't relate to this "lay spirituality"?

Thanks!
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old Jul 3, '11, 8:31 pm
jwinch2 jwinch2 is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: January 10, 2011
Posts: 6,875
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Dominican Third Order?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ReluctantSeeker View Post
Jason,

As I was reading through those articles you attached, I was wondering the same thing. Do you have any other articles, even if they don't relate to this "lay spirituality"?

Thanks!
Here are a couple more. It is worth noting that most of those articles are quite dated. I would imagine that much of the reform of Lay Order that was being discussed in those times has been implemented in some way. However, I am definitely curious to learn how and to what extent those changes have been made.


Pax Christi,

Jason
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	E. Schillebeeckx, O.P.   Old and New Style .pdf
Views:	37
Size:	65.7 KB
ID:	11017   Click image for larger version

Name:	Dominican Laity  Spirituality, by Christopher Kiesling O.P..pdf
Views:	26
Size:	36.6 KB
ID:	11019  
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old Jul 4, '11, 10:06 am
jwinch2 jwinch2 is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: January 10, 2011
Posts: 6,875
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Dominican Third Order?

BTW, there is a group dedicated to all things Dominican here at CAF which may be of interest.

Cheers!

http://forums.catholic.com/forumdisplay.php?f=189
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old Jul 10, '11, 11:54 am
jwinch2 jwinch2 is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: January 10, 2011
Posts: 6,875
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Dominican Third Order?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jwinch2 View Post
I have doing quite a bit of reading and studying on the Order lately along with reading several articles on the Dominican Laity. A question pops up from the readings that I would like to get your comments on.

First, I read multiple articles talking about the changing of the purpose and focus of the Dominican Laity to one that embraces more of the apostolic mission of the Order from what was described my multiple authors as a group of lay persons who were living the contemplative parts of the order but not the preaching or study parts of the order other than by witness to living a holy life. I have read multiple articles talking about how this situation needed to change in order to make the Lay Dominicans all that they were supposed to be and to enhance their ability to assist with the mission of the order in preaching the gospel in the world.

Most of these articles are multiple decades old. For example, the first one was written by a Dominican priest and was penned in the 1960's. The next was 1970, then 1978, then 1985. There is the appearance from the articles and letters that things were moving in that direction but I can find nothing of this process following that time which illustrates how LAy Dominicans are assisting the Friars in the preaching of the gospel in a more active way as was called for repeatedly in the documents I mentioned earlier.

So, how about it? Have things changed, gotten better and so on? If so, how? Can you provide some examples of how things have changed and ways that the laity is involved in the apostolic mission of the order that they were not 10 years ago? 20? 30?


Thanks in advance. I look forward to your response!

Jason
I'm going to bump this in case you missed it. If anyone else knowledgeable in the areas wishes to chime in that would be great as well!

Peace,
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old Jul 11, '11, 2:32 pm
Batfink Batfink is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: April 2, 2009
Posts: 484
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Dominican Third Order?

So annoyed! I typed you a huge response and then accidentslly deleted it, grrr! I'll see how good my memory is...

Sorry for the slooow reply. I will try to answer your question but I must start out by qualifying my answer with the caveat that I'm not very well placed to comment on the worldwide Order or it's history. For the former, I've only ever met Lay Dominicans from the UK so I can't comment on what's going on elsewhere. I will be attending World Youth Day in Madrid next month with the English Dominicans and we'll be meeting Dominicans from all over the world there so I'll update you with any further insights later on. For the latter, I'm a medieval historian by training, but my knowledge of the more recent past of the Order is somewhat lacking so I can't really say how we've developed since the 80s.

In my (own, personal, not very objective) experience, there are plenty of Lay Dominicans who are very active in apostolates in a variety of fields, but relatively few who are in cahoots with other members of the Family in joint projects. One example of someone who is would be Francis Davis, who is director of the International Young Leaders Network and the Las Casas Institute, both in conjunction with Blackfriars, Oxford. There are some other Lay Dominicans I know who don't seem to do very much at all, for them I think it may be, as you describe, a more contemplative life, although it could just be that I'm not aware of the work they do. I think most people are in the middle: we don't engage in many joint projects with the friars, for example, but we are quite active in our daily lives separate from them.

I have found Lay Dominicans to be much more heavily involved than the average Catholic in many active apostolates, particularly social justice issues and things like the SVP. We also have a much higher proportion than average of people in careers where preaching is integral to the job, things like education or chaplaincy.

However, there is no real check on people's preaching. It is kind of taken for granted, at least in my limited experience, that you are a preacher, ergo you preach. Where and how that is done depends on the individual circumstances, situations and life you find yourself in and is not really investigated. Lay Dominicans within a chapter often share about things they have done as part of the fraternity meetings, but not in a formal checking-up way, just as part of a talk they might be giving anyway to the other members.

The other point you made was about study. There we are much more rigorous. Study and reading are definitely seen as central to the vocation and are strongly encouraged. In my fraternity, we have a book club which meets straight after the fraternity meetings, and we stay behind to discuss our reading. My Dominican friar confessor takes it for granted when giving me advice in confession that I have read x, y and z authors.

Sorry for the unsatisfactory response. I hope you have got some information from it, but I fear it may be mainly by luck rather than design if you have. I have tried to give as much of an answer as I can, but like I say I am drawing on limited knowledge. I'm trying to be truthful (veritas, our motto, see? ) and not paint too gloomy or cheery a picture, but the honest answer is that Lay Dominicans are as varied as we are numerous and with no verification process, there is no real way for me to judge what apostolates other people are taking part in. I trust my brothers and sisters in St Dominic though, we all came to the Order because we were called to preach and we all do, in our own ways!
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old Jul 11, '11, 5:50 pm
jwinch2 jwinch2 is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: January 10, 2011
Posts: 6,875
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Dominican Third Order?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Batfink View Post
So annoyed! I typed you a huge response and then accidentslly deleted it, grrr! I'll see how good my memory is...

Sorry for the slooow reply. I will try to answer your question but I must start out by qualifying my answer with the caveat that I'm not very well placed to comment on the worldwide Order or it's history. For the former, I've only ever met Lay Dominicans from the UK so I can't comment on what's going on elsewhere. I will be attending World Youth Day in Madrid next month with the English Dominicans and we'll be meeting Dominicans from all over the world there so I'll update you with any further insights later on. For the latter, I'm a medieval historian by training, but my knowledge of the more recent past of the Order is somewhat lacking so I can't really say how we've developed since the 80s.

In my (own, personal, not very objective) experience, there are plenty of Lay Dominicans who are very active in apostolates in a variety of fields, but relatively few who are in cahoots with other members of the Family in joint projects. One example of someone who is would be Francis Davis, who is director of the International Young Leaders Network and the Las Casas Institute, both in conjunction with Blackfriars, Oxford. There are some other Lay Dominicans I know who don't seem to do very much at all, for them I think it may be, as you describe, a more contemplative life, although it could just be that I'm not aware of the work they do. I think most people are in the middle: we don't engage in many joint projects with the friars, for example, but we are quite active in our daily lives separate from them.

I have found Lay Dominicans to be much more heavily involved than the average Catholic in many active apostolates, particularly social justice issues and things like the SVP. We also have a much higher proportion than average of people in careers where preaching is integral to the job, things like education or chaplaincy.

However, there is no real check on people's preaching. It is kind of taken for granted, at least in my limited experience, that you are a preacher, ergo you preach. Where and how that is done depends on the individual circumstances, situations and life you find yourself in and is not really investigated. Lay Dominicans within a chapter often share about things they have done as part of the fraternity meetings, but not in a formal checking-up way, just as part of a talk they might be giving anyway to the other members.

The other point you made was about study. There we are much more rigorous. Study and reading are definitely seen as central to the vocation and are strongly encouraged. In my fraternity, we have a book club which meets straight after the fraternity meetings, and we stay behind to discuss our reading. My Dominican friar confessor takes it for granted when giving me advice in confession that I have read x, y and z authors.

Sorry for the unsatisfactory response. I hope you have got some information from it, but I fear it may be mainly by luck rather than design if you have. I have tried to give as much of an answer as I can, but like I say I am drawing on limited knowledge. I'm trying to be truthful (veritas, our motto, see? ) and not paint too gloomy or cheery a picture, but the honest answer is that Lay Dominicans are as varied as we are numerous and with no verification process, there is no real way for me to judge what apostolates other people are taking part in. I trust my brothers and sisters in St Dominic though, we all came to the Order because we were called to preach and we all do, in our own ways!
Thank you very much for your time and your thoughtful response. I really appreciate it!

Peace,
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old Jul 12, '11, 5:30 am
Batfink Batfink is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: April 2, 2009
Posts: 484
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Dominican Third Order?

You're welcome.

As I say, I'm sorry I couldn't be more useful.

It helped me though. I'd had a really tiring day - day at work, evening looking after a very grumpy baby and then having to clean the house from top to bottom as we had potenital buyers coming round today, then I sat down to type your message at 11pm. When I went to bed afterwards, I had a really cool dream about the Master of the Dominican Order, Timothy Radcliffe (whose book I recommeded earlier) and some other friars all walking to the seminary in my village and me following them. I usually dream about really boring stuff (I basically dream my own waking life and then get confused about what's really happened and what was a dream lol) so this was so great to have a very vivid dream about some of my role models!

Thank you for the inspiration!
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old Jul 12, '11, 7:39 am
jwinch2 jwinch2 is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: January 10, 2011
Posts: 6,875
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Dominican Third Order?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Batfink View Post
You're welcome.

As I say, I'm sorry I couldn't be more useful.

It helped me though. I'd had a really tiring day - day at work, evening looking after a very grumpy baby and then having to clean the house from top to bottom as we had potenital buyers coming round today, then I sat down to type your message at 11pm. When I went to bed afterwards, I had a really cool dream about the Master of the Dominican Order, Timothy Radcliffe (whose book I recommeded earlier) and some other friars all walking to the seminary in my village and me following them. I usually dream about really boring stuff (I basically dream my own waking life and then get confused about what's really happened and what was a dream lol) so this was so great to have a very vivid dream about some of my role models!

Thank you for the inspiration!
Interesting dream, though I will give credit for any inspiration that may have occurred to our Blessed Lord rather than myself. Believe me, you don't want me influencing your dreams!

Again, thanks for the response and the information. I really do appreciate you taking the time to help. Good luck with selling the home and all of that stuff. What a pain that is!

Peace!

Jason
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old Jul 12, '11, 11:10 am
Melchior_ Melchior_ is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: February 7, 2010
Posts: 2,884
Religion: Catholic - Now with 100% more vocation!
Default Re: Dominican Third Order?

Thank you all for this thread. It's certainly helping me with my discernment process. Please keep on contributing!
__________________
Visit the Vagrant Catholic for Catholic apologetics and commentary.

CAF Group for Catholic IT Workers. Now with 100% MORE MESSAGE BOARD!.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old Jul 12, '11, 1:07 pm
Batfink Batfink is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: April 2, 2009
Posts: 484
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Dominican Third Order?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Melchior_ View Post
Thank you all for this thread. It's certainly helping me with my discernment process. Please keep on contributing!
I have nothing to add at the moment, but if you have any specific questions to spark off the discussion a bit, or if anyone else does, throw them out there.

As for your dicernment, I've read your other post and I can't tell you which order to go with (obviously!), but I was going through it thinking "wow, this guy is me!...but probably older, male and considerably more Canadian!" Not that I had the same issues discerning, it was Dominicans for me all the way and the only question was lay or sister, but I work in youth ministry, teach RCIA etc.

All I can suggest is that you maybe attend fraternity meetings for a while before commiting to one...Or just go with the Dominicans
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old Jul 12, '11, 1:24 pm
Melchior_ Melchior_ is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: February 7, 2010
Posts: 2,884
Religion: Catholic - Now with 100% more vocation!
Default Re: Dominican Third Order?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Batfink View Post
I have nothing to add at the moment, but if you have any specific questions to spark off the discussion a bit, or if anyone else does, throw them out there.

As for your dicernment, I've read your other post and I can't tell you which order to go with (obviously!), but I was going through it thinking "wow, this guy is me!...but probably older, male and considerably more Canadian!" Not that I had the same issues discerning, it was Dominicans for me all the way and the only question was lay or sister, but I work in youth ministry, teach RCIA etc.

All I can suggest is that you maybe attend fraternity meetings for a while before commiting to one...Or just go with the Dominicans
I'm most definitely more Canadian, definitely male....but not sure about older. I'm only 29 after all, so I'm plenty young!

There's a long formation process before joining a secular order, so just because I join one doesn't mean I make any promises until the day comes that....well, I guess I make promises.

I'm involved in the Charismatic Renewal, and initially I was concerned that the Dominicans were not fans of the movement. I was informed by a few people that the order as a whole doesn't have anything against it, and some Dominicans are prominent figures within the Renewal.

I suppose my main question at this time is that I know Dominicans are big into theology, I am wondering how they embrace the mystical, and if there are some Dominicans who are mystical in nature.
__________________
Visit the Vagrant Catholic for Catholic apologetics and commentary.

CAF Group for Catholic IT Workers. Now with 100% MORE MESSAGE BOARD!.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old Jul 12, '11, 2:26 pm
Batfink Batfink is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: April 2, 2009
Posts: 484
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Dominican Third Order?

Good grief, I'm an old woman compared to you! You have wisdom beyond your years, young one. I'm 30

As for specific spirituality/mystical/charismatic etc., we're really varied. This is one thing I have found to differ quite considerably in the different provinces, so check out how it is with you. With us,even my own small fraternity is really diverse: we have someone who attends the EF as exclusively as possible and leads Gregorian chant etc, someone very conservative/traditional within the OF, someone who's really heavily involved in the ecumenical, inter-church and inter-religious movement, someone who's big into the green movement and tends to see ecological issues as the biggest social concern (i.e. not too worried about the form of the liturgy and doesn't favour complicated services) and most of the other people are old-school (late middle aged, born before VII, brought up in the immediate aftermath) liberals. Then there's me, I love nearly all aspects of Catholicism and join in pretty much everything depending on where I find myself...I love the EF, I love Matt Redman and Brenton Brown; I love electric guitars, I love the organ; I love Latin, I love Youth 2000. I'm a chameleon!

Catherine of Siena was a famous mystic and there is a lot of respect and devotion to her as such; there are certainly still some mystics extant within the Order. It is welcomed as a form of spirituality, but as with any small community, I can't vouch for the acceptance of every member of a potentially tiny fraternity. Hey, we're all Catholics...we're made up of the people who sit next to you at Mass. Do you get funny looks from the old lady next to you when you start speaking in tongues? She might be a Dominican. Do you get envious admiration from the middle aged man on the other side when you tell him about your latest mystical experience during contemplation? He might be a Dominican...well, you get the idea. I can't guarantee how every person will view you, but there is no institutionalised prejudice against mysticism, anything but. We've had a debate in my fraternity before about the cultural background of mystics and in particular how German mystics differ from Italians (our book club had just read Meister Eckhart and Catherine) and there were some hints there that mysticism per se was a bit 'continental' and not really suited to upstanding English citizens, but most of us left the meeting with a renewed fervour for contemplative prayer.

Re. your other point, some of our members have left to join other orders after their temporary profession expires, so even when you do make promises there's a considerable period of formation before making a lifelong commitment, at least 6 years from first enquiring. Most people would have worked it out in 6 years, if not then there is provision to make temporary profession again. Even if you started tomorrow, you'd be 35 by the time that came round...now that is old!
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old Jul 12, '11, 9:55 pm
Melchior_ Melchior_ is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: February 7, 2010
Posts: 2,884
Religion: Catholic - Now with 100% more vocation!
Default Re: Dominican Third Order?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Batfink View Post
Good grief, I'm an old woman compared to you! You have wisdom beyond your years, young one. I'm 30

As for specific spirituality/mystical/charismatic etc., we're really varied. This is one thing I have found to differ quite considerably in the different provinces, so check out how it is with you. With us,even my own small fraternity is really diverse: we have someone who attends the EF as exclusively as possible and leads Gregorian chant etc, someone very conservative/traditional within the OF, someone who's really heavily involved in the ecumenical, inter-church and inter-religious movement, someone who's big into the green movement and tends to see ecological issues as the biggest social concern (i.e. not too worried about the form of the liturgy and doesn't favour complicated services) and most of the other people are old-school (late middle aged, born before VII, brought up in the immediate aftermath) liberals. Then there's me, I love nearly all aspects of Catholicism and join in pretty much everything depending on where I find myself...I love the EF, I love Matt Redman and Brenton Brown; I love electric guitars, I love the organ; I love Latin, I love Youth 2000. I'm a chameleon!

Catherine of Siena was a famous mystic and there is a lot of respect and devotion to her as such; there are certainly still some mystics extant within the Order. It is welcomed as a form of spirituality, but as with any small community, I can't vouch for the acceptance of every member of a potentially tiny fraternity. Hey, we're all Catholics...we're made up of the people who sit next to you at Mass. Do you get funny looks from the old lady next to you when you start speaking in tongues? She might be a Dominican. Do you get envious admiration from the middle aged man on the other side when you tell him about your latest mystical experience during contemplation? He might be a Dominican...well, you get the idea. I can't guarantee how every person will view you, but there is no institutionalised prejudice against mysticism, anything but. We've had a debate in my fraternity before about the cultural background of mystics and in particular how German mystics differ from Italians (our book club had just read Meister Eckhart and Catherine) and there were some hints there that mysticism per se was a bit 'continental' and not really suited to upstanding English citizens, but most of us left the meeting with a renewed fervour for contemplative prayer.

Re. your other point, some of our members have left to join other orders after their temporary profession expires, so even when you do make promises there's a considerable period of formation before making a lifelong commitment, at least 6 years from first enquiring. Most people would have worked it out in 6 years, if not then there is provision to make temporary profession again. Even if you started tomorrow, you'd be 35 by the time that came round...now that is old!
You've addressed several of my concerns in your post, and also some of my wife's! Thank you very much!
__________________
Visit the Vagrant Catholic for Catholic apologetics and commentary.

CAF Group for Catholic IT Workers. Now with 100% MORE MESSAGE BOARD!.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Go Back   Catholic Answers Forums > Forums > Catholic Living > Vocations

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search Thread
Search Thread:

Advanced Search
Display

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


Prayer Intentions

Most Active Groups
8257Meet and talk,talk talk
Last by: GLam8833
5022CAF Prayer Warriors Support Group
Last by: Vim71
4346Devotion to the Sorrowful Mother
Last by: FootStool
4029OCD/Scrupulosity Group
Last by: B79
3835SOLITUDE
Last by: beth40n2
3572Let's empty Purgatory
Last by: RJB
3230Poems and Reflections
Last by: tonyg
3207Catholic Vegetarians & Vegans
Last by: Chast Forever
3139Petitions Before the Blessed Sacrament
Last by: Amiciel
3049For seniors and shut- ins
Last by: Thomas Choe



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 4:51 am.

Home RSS Feeds - Home - Archive - Top

Copyright © 2004-2014, Catholic Answers.