Atheist that follows Catholic morality. What's your opinion?

[AlanFromWichita]

(continued)

and only love coinquers evil , if you strive to be good you will brreed evil with it -- a fact , i hope this explains my thoughts

I'm still a bit fuzzy about how love both breeds and conquers evil. By "breed" do you mean it attracts evil? I've always been taught that satan goes after the most loving people, the most. He already owns the others.

Originally Posted by John Russell Jr

say an abortionist is about to kill a mans baby , the father rushes into the operating theatre before the murdr takes place , pulls out a gun and shoots at the abortist to save his child , but the assisting nurse throws herself in front of the abortionist and takes the bullet and dies , did she have no greater love by laying down her life for the abortionist in this case and so the baby could be killed ??? , no , and she'd most likely go to hell

It's an interesting example to me because a couple years ago, the infamous Dr. George Tiller (advertised elective late term abortions on his web site) was, in fact, murdered inside his own church, by some fruitcake. Pro-lifers condemn the act in public, but many are privately gleeful that it happened -- that's based on what some "pro-life" people have actually told me. (People tell me personal stuff because I like to listen to them.) Some of these are the same people who denounce abortion on the basis that "ALL human life is precious," yet they support routine use of the death penalty.

In your example, I don't see why the nurse would be going to hell for saving the doctor's life. She might go to hell for working for the doctor in the first place, but for preventing murder? I'm not there yet.

another eg a satanic high priest is about to perform human sacrifice but a man breaks in and shoots at the satanic high priest but a satanist throws himself in harms way and cops the bullet and dies , did that satanist have no greater love by laying down his life for another ??? , no , he did not

Why not? Just because satanists are confused and wrong and whatever, IMO doesn't mean they can't love; surely the love comes from God whether they know it or not. How do we know that high priest might not end up doing a Saul-to-Paul type conversion and be one of the best tools the Holy Spirit has?

,,, i these two scenarios and there can be endless ones like these , the saying would go like this , no greater love of evil has man than that he lay down his life for his friends

Hmmm.... do you support routine use of the death penalty? And do you believe all human life is sacred, or just "innocent" life, IOW a person whom we have not yet judged as evil? Every human being other than Jesus is a mixture of good and evil. How can a human being measure the two against each other, in order to determine whether another man's life is "sacred enough" to save?

,,, like i was saying jesus was talking about himself here and none others can have no greater love as he does ,,, the rule does not always appy to all at all dear friend ,,,

I guess I don't understand why Jesus would have bothered to tell us that, then, unless He was being self-aggrandizing.

... may god bless and love you ,,,

And you as well.

Thank you again for your posts.

Alan

[Bohm Bawerk]

Originally Posted by LongJohnSilver

Hi Bohm,

I wish I met you during the WYD, you seem a nice and honest person. Reading your testimony I cannot think of any other advice than to keep searching for truth and keep the route to God open. Knowing the Christian conception of God as being ultimately Good, and recognizing the fact that Catholic morality is the best way to goodness in the world, you might at least keep open the possibility that the Catholic way is the route to the ultimate Goodness, that is God.

Good luck on your journey.

I'm pretty sure I'll be an atheist till "kingdom come". But thank you for your kind comments; wish I could have met you on the WYD as well

[John Russell Jr]

Originally Posted by Bohm Bawerk

I'm pretty sure I'll be an atheist till "kingdom come". But thank you for your kind comments; wish I could have met you on the WYD as well

why do you want to be an atheist ? its a choice based on insanity and completely illogical and unreasonable as i see it , is there a reason at all ? why not agnostic if your unsure ? if you want i'll show you why atheism is hopelessly flawd even though you might not understand the explanation , but what are your reasons have you already given up searching for truth dear friend ???

[Bohm Bawerk]

Originally Posted by John Russell Jr

why do you want to be an atheist ? its a choice based on insanity and completely illogical and unreasonable as i see it , is there a reason at all ? why not agnostic if your unsure ? if you want i'll show you why atheism is hopelessly flawd even though you might not understand the explanation , but what are your reasons have you already given up searching for truth dear friend ???

I absolutely know that there is no God, and I'm happy in this state. Much the same way that believers absolutely know there is a God.

[TrueLight]

Originally Posted by Bohm Bawerk

I absolutely know that there is no God, and I'm happy in this state. Much the same way that believers absolutely know there is a God.

No, Bohm. You're an agnostic at best. God is working on you. I feel it.

[Bohm Bawerk]

Originally Posted by TrueLight

No, Bohm. You're an agnostic at best. God is working on you. I feel it.

No, I'm not agnostic. As weird as it may be, and regardless of how seriously you take the following statement, I don't believe in God and know there is no God.

This follow website is helpful: http://godisimaginary.com/

I can relate to a lot of the proofs due to personal experience. In my opinion (this may differ from atheist to atheist), the best criticism of God's existence is the ineffectiveness of prayer. Other atheists may have different reasons for not believing in God (e.g. problem of suffering, different religions, evolution, etc) .

[AlanFromWichita]

Originally Posted by Bohm Bawerk

No, I'm not agnostic. As weird as it may be, and regardless of how seriously you take the following statement, I don't believe in God and know there is no God.

I take your statement completely seriously, and I myself have had atheist "periods" in my life, ranging from a couple minutes to several months at a time, but I have always come back at least to agnosticism, and at times into Truly Believing, although I admit I spend more time slightly unsure. Actually I think it's healthy for me to remain slightly unsure; the minute I "know" something I tend to take it for granted.

I haven't looked much at the website you linked, but I hear you on the prayer thing. I agree that statistically speaking, I'm guessing the far majority of prayers go unanswered. That could be due to the absence of any intelligent entity hearing them, but there are other reasons too that mess up the math. For example, I think that so many people pray without really knowing what they're saying, or praying in an ineffective way, not to mention that I know few people who really come off like they have "spiritual" growth and not just religious beliefs and quirks, that it's no wonder it doesn't work. The amount of stupidity I've seen in the name of God, that directly contradicts what Jesus's teachings mean to me, is staggering.

Another way that I accept that man is not necessarily the "only" master of the universe, is that particle physicists have been kicking around "string theory" for some time now. It requires a minimum of 10 spatial dimensions and one time dimension, so that's seven dimensions more than we can perceive or imagine, given our limitations and experience. Who is to know that there may be some form of intelligence that operates in those dimensions that even has the power to manipulate things in our three-dimensional world without our knowing how it happened. IOW, I cannot see how an honest physicist can say there are dimensions we can't perceive, but they know for a fact that there is no spirit world. That's one of the most striking conflicts I know of, from people who are supposedly brilliant.

I will also give you that even in my "faithful" moments, I have no particular "persistent" image -- or engineering model, if you will -- of God. It is ridiculous to me that there is some dude, probably with a big beard or something, sitting in outer space somewhere watching and manipulating the planet, and making a list of who's naughty or nice. That makes no sense, and is in serious conflict with scriptures IMO, but I feel that this -- in some form or other -- is the graven image that most of us are trained to envision. Since we can't imagine anything greater than our own imaginations, we imagine God in a very limited way and basically put Him into a box the size of our own brains -- then we wonder why He doesn't behave the way we think He's "supposed" to or complain because He doesn't answer our prayer. Besides, I don't think God needs our prayers; I see the most valuable aspect of prayer is in groups, that it brings people together, and all the time it helps us sort out our own thoughts and feelings about serious matters. I do struggle with "petition prayer" a bit, because if God's will is always done, and if He gives us good things, and if He knows what we want before we even ask -- then if God is the way we have Him pegged to be, then technically it should be about as "effective" at manipulating God as talking to a brick wall. Still useful from a personal standpoint, though, and I'm not above occasionally speaking out loud or mentally when nobody else is around, just saying what I'm thinking or what I want. God doesn't need to hear it, but I benefit from saying it.

Also I take a different approach to "truth" than many people do, I think. I am an engineer, not a scientist. Scientists are in a constant quest to discover "truth," whereas engineers aren't. I don't need to know the absolute truth about how electronic components work in various environments and what's going on inside. I know what's going on down to the subatomic level, but beyond that nobody in the world knows yet what's going on -- so every time we learn something it just raises more questions. The idea that we as individuals, groups, even religions or planetary populations, can ever know the "full truth" is ludicrous. Besides, if we knew everything, what fun would that be? Then we'd be totally bored and we'd have to go around creating planets full of human drama just to get some entertainment.

But as usual I digress. As an engineer, I don't need to know the "truth" per se. I just need to know how things work to the extent I can predict their behavior under all sorts of conditions with a high degree of confidence. When I design equipment that confuses enemy radar in the B-1, or the radios in the EC-135 airborne command post, or computer-based controls that drop bombs out of B-52s, there's a lot at stake. I don't know the Absolute Truth about how all that stuff works, but I know closely enough with overwhelming statistical evidence how it behaves, to the extent that I'd bet our national security on it. I use the same approach to dealing with God and spiritual things. Like I said, I do not share the notion that any person or group of people knows the "absolute and full" Truth about our universe or God or whatever -- and that includes the Catholic Church. What I want to know is, how does the human mind and heart work, at least closely enough I can develop a working model and plan how I'm going to live my life in response.

I wish you well, and honestly I think the world would be a better place if more people had the desire to conduct their lives as you come across as wanting to do, whether they believe in God or not. To me, that sounds like a valid engineering approach that can work for you whether you later change your mind or not.

Alan

[Glennonite]

I wonder if the whole purpose of Christianity is "the Communion of Saints". All prayer is a meta-spiritual way to be connected with the entire population of humanity-everyone, whether they be in the afterlife or among the living.

It's not unlike (forgive this poor example) school spirit. "Everyone needs to come out to the game and help cheer our players on to victory." "Show your support for our: school/cause/etc." Cheering, or offering words of encouragement, or prayers doesn't create a scientic cause/effect relationship. But the whole unity-thing is the point.

Participating as a member with the commUNION of all humanity in the spiritual-sense, and in the unity with God, seems to be the point. The game may be lost, the natural disaster may devistate, the disease may kill millions, the tyrant may commit genocide. That's life. But maybe, it's all about being there.

Just some thoughts.

Glennonite

[John Russell Jr]

Originally Posted by Bohm Bawerk

I absolutely know that there is no God, and I'm happy in this state. Much the same way that believers absolutely know there is a God.

... dear bohm ,,,

... i have been through all atheistic arguments with my own individual solutions and proven them all wrong , but don't expect me to be a scientist , i have also aswered science in giving a general overview of the universe and cosmos to explain all though , but if you really want tell me one by one your atheistic arguments and i'll correct the understanding of them -- the whole lot , you may or may not understand the solutions to these probs but i'll do it for you if you'll participate , my solutions to the problems are a bit ahead of there times so atheists have not heard all the answers i give yet ,,, but a little note on does god exist for startes ,,, lets say time has a beginning but there is no time there is just eternity , no start or finish or middle , just " now " and to make it understandable in the beginning there is a choice , there must be either something or nothing , now if nothing exists then we must understand that it is impossible for nothing to exist at all ever , even though we so often use the word nothing i know , so if nothing exists allowing for that being an impossibility because nothing is exactly what it says -- it is nothing and cannot even exist , but if it can then nothing is then something , so whether nothing exists or something exists either way something must exist , and we'll look further at this something that must exist , if it has any slightest degree or amount of nothing / ness in it then it has become nothing , so this something must be the most perfect possible something that can exist , otherwise it cannot exist , there can be no imperfection in this something or it ceases to be as any nothing / ness is imperfection , and we know this most infinitely perfect something must be love as love unites and if there was any evil in this something it would self destruct as evil divides and the something would divide and cease to be by infinite division ,,, and the nature of something is that it must do something , be creative -- hence the something being the most infinitely perfect something that can possibly be possesses all possible perfection infinitely and must be infinitely creative ,,, i have been on philosophy of religion www's and others and have absolutely conclusively solved all atheistic arguments , some of which none have solved in over 2,000 yrs , i've even solvewd cantors mathematical problem by creating a new numerical number which the mathematicians may embrace one day , i've solved the problems , of evil , hell , prayer etc etc etc , the whole lot , inconsistencies in the bible , and every atheistic argument that has ever been , so try me , but i only understand basic language so talk to me in a way i know what your saying and i'll help you , it does not mean your intelligent based on your knowledge or knowledge of language , intelligence is an ability of the mind , present one problem in detail at a time and expect a solution you or the church has not heard before , i'm not going to tell you what you already know , but if you keep going eventually you'll get the whole pic , be patient and one q at a time please , i want to help you because your here obviously making and effort to find truth dear friend , the offer is there for you ,,,

... may god bless and love you ,,,

... john ...

[John Russell Jr]

Originally Posted by AlanFromWichita

(continued)

I'm still a bit fuzzy about how love both breeds and conquers evil. By "breed" do you mean it attracts evil? I've always been taught that satan goes after the most loving people, the most. He already owns the others.


It's an interesting example to me because a couple years ago, the infamous Dr. George Tiller (advertised elective late term abortions on his web site) was, in fact, murdered inside his own church, by some fruitcake. Pro-lifers condemn the act in public, but many are privately gleeful that it happened -- that's based on what some "pro-life" people have actually told me. (People tell me personal stuff because I like to listen to them.) Some of these are the same people who denounce abortion on the basis that "ALL human life is precious," yet they support routine use of the death penalty.

In your example, I don't see why the nurse would be going to hell for saving the doctor's life. She might go to hell for working for the doctor in the first place, but for preventing murder? I'm not there yet.

Why not? Just because satanists are confused and wrong and whatever, IMO doesn't mean they can't love; surely the love comes from God whether they know it or not. How do we know that high priest might not end up doing a Saul-to-Paul type conversion and be one of the best tools the Holy Spirit has?

Hmmm.... do you support routine use of the death penalty? And do you believe all human life is sacred, or just "innocent" life, IOW a person whom we have not yet judged as evil? Every human being other than Jesus is a mixture of good and evil. How can a human being measure the two against each other, in order to determine whether another man's life is "sacred enough" to save?

I guess I don't understand why Jesus would have bothered to tell us that, then, unless He was being self-aggrandizing.

And you as well.

Thank you again for your posts.

Alan

... dear alan , i'll reply soon dear friend

[John Russell Jr]

Originally Posted by Bohm Bawerk

I absolutely know that there is no God, and I'm happy in this state. Much the same way that believers absolutely know there is a God.

... i'll help with any q's but here's a great list also http://www.philosophyofreligion.info...s-for-atheism/

[Robert Sock]

Originally Posted by Bohm Bawerk

No, I'm not agnostic. As weird as it may be, and regardless of how seriously you take the following statement, I don't believe in God and know there is no God.

For whatever it's worth, I remember myself saying the same thing before becoming devoutly Catholic! Something happened, and it happened from within. It's a spiritual experience that goes beyond description.

[Protector]

Originally Posted by Bohm Bawerk

Do you think in the grand scheme of things, an atheist can follow Catholic morality?

St Paul in Romans addresses a similar situation, maybe:

" For when the Gentiles, who have not the law, do by nature those things that are of the law; these having not the law are a law to themselves:" (Rom.2:14, Douay-Rheims Holy Bible).

Personally speaking, I think your faith will return and I wish you well.

Protector.

[John Russell Jr]

[quote=AlanFromWichita;8338949]John,

Thank you for your time and effort to offer your comments on my post.

... dear alan , sorry for slow reply , my replies are in red dear friend ...

I'm not going to argue that there is love without God. I will consider, however, the possibility that a person can be totally loving in the way God would have it, while being totally unaware that that's how we do our loving. Love is built into the human heart, as we were made in the image of God. So my hypothesis here is that a person does not have to consciously and intentionally be following God (or at least a "Catholic" description of God) in order to have this loving. There are people who come across as more loving than most Catholics I know, who are mentally retarded and illiterate and don't consciously know about God. That probably isn't a coincidence because these people don't have the intelligence to have a "false self" that they must lose in order to follow Christ.

.... i think your right , even animals , vegetation and all other living things are love and love god , and god begrudges none for ignorance of course , acting good is falsehood , being good is being what you act which is alsehood , being love and loving is the person your meant to be like an immaculate conception in the garden of eden , this is how i differentiate these ,,, everything in this univerese and cosmos and man is the opposite of reality in various unusual ways incl the human heart , man is not as he is meant to be nor is his heart , grace is meant to transform man into an image of christ so he can once again be fully the human he is meant to be , not even the saints achieve this but it's the goal , i believe we are going to get the garden of eden back eventually which is reality then man will be truly human again , man is made to love god and love all in god , and i don't compare all to the worst catholics , if you mst -- compare them to jesus and mary , but in the garden of eden they would be different still ...

For that matter, I know several atheists who seem to me to have much greater love, mercy, and respect of others than quite a few Catholics -- including some priests -- that I know. Do you think God would prefer somebody who doesn't go to Mass or profess our Creed but cares about (if you don't like the word "love") others and shows them mercy and kindness, or somebody who "does all the right things" but has not love? I think the Bible clearly teaches in many different ways, that the former is preferable. (For example, the Good Samaritan, 1 Cor 13, the Pharisees v. Jesus's friends, etc.)

... i am not condemning any to hell , but if you know the gospel and reject it are you more likely to be saved than if you accepted it and lived it , i don't like examples of bad catholics , there are good and bad everywhere , we only have to worry about ourselves and our souls , and our obligation is to save all men , not hope their so ignorant and good by chance they'll sneak into purgatory ...

I'm not sure I understand you here. I see "morality" as a code of behavior. Closeness to God is something I'd call "spirituality." I'm not sure how "good breeds evil" except in acknowledgement to the dualistic reality of language that in order to even know what the word "good" means, there must be something "not good" -- if everything were good there would be no word "good."

... adam and eve knew not good or evil until the devil tempted them saying knowing it they would be like god , until then they were just love and only did gods will love , there were no rules or laws , no right or wrong and no good or evil in the 1000's of forms it is in today , they were perefect and sinless but could make mistakes which is human , but taking the apple was disobedience to god and brought on the punishments of the loss of reality and a world of good and evil like they wanted and made them so subject to satan like they had done in listening to him and not god , in the garden of eden there is no morality or good or evil , right or wrong , man only has free will to do gods will and he has no conscience , we're being punished severely here ,,, when you know good you also know evil , and you do both necessarily , all this stuff that was not in the garden of eden is just insanity in mans head -- it's not real , we're in this delusion as a punishment so we must play gods game or hell awaits etc but there isn't even any such thing as sin or hell in reality , it's real here in the delusion , but god has a plan to fix it , this is not church teaching but my own thoughts by the way , i suspect i'm right too ...



... john ...

[John Russell Jr]

I agree, and I think that's important. Honestly, Jesus seemed to have a pretty low regard for rules and laws of His church, in that He didn't ask His own followers to obey them -- and chastised those who called them down for it. I don't think nearly enough people realize this.

... rules and laws are not supposed to exist but do in this delusion , in reality they don't , they are pure insanity , often necessary for man to function , but the cause of endless trouble because this insanity is unchecked and out of control in mans mind and he doesn't even know it exists , there's a prob or how to deal with it ...


I see it more like you get to heaven because God loves you, and wants you there unless you make it absolutely impossible for him to put you there. None of us can love as well as Jesus, whether we profess to believe in God or not.

... god gives us heaven and gets us there , we just cooperate , but in the end he does the lot , we'd all be in hell now without his cointinual help ...

I'm chicken-hearted. I don't wish for an opportunity to "prove" my love in this way, but I hope if it comes down to it I'll pass whatever tests I'm given. I just used the "no greater love" as an extreme example of how Jesus defined "the greatest" love as doing a particular thing. In a smaller example, I might act like I'm not interested in something that I know another person would like but would feel awkward if that person knew I wanted it. That would be a denial of self -- like giving up a microscopic speck of my life anyway -- so we can give our lives away all at once, or in little tiny pieces.
(ah -- the dreaded post length limit ... continued in next post)[/quote]

... no probs , i might have post limit probs too , i'll answer all though soon enough dearest friend ,,,

... may god bless and love you ,,,