Catholic FAQ



Latest Threads
newest posts



Go Back   Catholic Answers Forums > Forums > Liturgy and Sacraments
 

Welcome to Catholic Answers Forums, the largest Catholic Community on the Web.

Here you can join over 300,000 members from around the world discussing all things Catholic. Membership is open to all, Catholic and non-Catholic alike, who seek the Truth with Charity.

To gain full access, you must register for a FREE account. Registered members are able to:
  • Submit questions about the faith to experts from Catholic Answers
  • Participate in all forum discussions
  • Communicate privately with Catholics from around the world
  • Plus join a prayer group, read with the Book Club, and much more.
Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free. So join our community today!

Have a question about registration or your account log-in? Just contact our Support Hotline.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search Thread Display
  #16  
Old Sep 22, '11, 2:55 pm
VicTorDominican VicTorDominican is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: September 21, 2011
Posts: 56
Default Re: Why is Cardinal Scola's Pallium upside down? (also is this the first time it's ever been given outside of Mass?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by PazzoGrande View Post
I wondered if the Pope gave Scola a special conferral so as to signal something.
I see an awkward fumbling with a flimsy garment that's hard to figure out unless it's handed to you in a certain way.

I've seen this sort of thing happen before.
  • handing someone the wrong diploma,
  • putting a crown on the king's head crooked,
  • gloved hands slipping off the coffin handles and the coffin hits the sidewalk corner-first with a huge crunch,
  • dropping the wedding rings on the floor and having them roll in two different directions down the altar steps and under the pews.
It's the sort of thing you see but you just move on and pretend it never happened; you joke about it at the reception afterward. "I may have taken your exam, but I won't take your diploma." "His Majesty's government leans a little to the left as well." "Uncle Bart started turning in his coffin long before he was in the grave!" "Our rings were more scared than we were!"

But if you want to make up an edifying legend about it, how about saying that it was put on upside down deliberately because wearing the pallium isn't about the ceremony, it's about your responsibility and your teaching authority?
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old Sep 22, '11, 3:52 pm
PacoG PacoG is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: January 27, 2008
Posts: 1,022
Religion: Catholic. God's a Texas fan: He made sunsets burnt orange.
Default Re: Cardinal Scola

Quote:
Originally Posted by JGMendes4049 View Post
Sometimes, when an archbishop is appointed to a diocese where the ordinary is usually a bishop, the Pope gives him the title of archbishop ad personam, so that they're called the Archbishop-Bishop of Anydiocese.
But those archbishops aren't metropolitans and aren't entitled to the pallium without some kind of dispensation. Same thing with titular archbishops and archbishops of non-metropolitical archdioceses.

The pallium is the exclusive vestment of a metropolitan.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old Sep 22, '11, 4:00 pm
PacoG PacoG is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: January 27, 2008
Posts: 1,022
Religion: Catholic. God's a Texas fan: He made sunsets burnt orange.
Default Re: Why is Cardinal Scola's Pallium upside down? (also is this the first time it's ever been given outside of Mass?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by VicTorDominican View Post
But if you want to make up an edifying legend about it, how about saying that it was put on upside down deliberately because wearing the pallium isn't about the ceremony, it's about your responsibility and your teaching authority?
The pallium is not a symbol of teaching authority. It is a symbol of metropolitical authority. A metropolitan is first among equals in his province. The pallium symbolizes that primacy of honor. Otherwise, the metropolitan of a province has the same teaching authority as the bishops of the suffragan dioceses in his province. Example: Daniel Cardinal DiNardo, Archbishop of Galveston-Houston and Metropolitan of the Galveston-Houston Province has no more teaching authority than Bishop Daniel Flores of the Diocese of Brownsville. However, when the Cardinal visits the Diocese of Brownsville, he wears his pallium to indicate his primacy of place over Bishop Flores.

At least that is the way I understand it.

The exception would be the pope's pallium. In that case, it is a sign of his Petrine Ministry.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old Sep 22, '11, 4:07 pm
PazzoGrande PazzoGrande is offline
Regular Member
Book Club Member
 
Join Date: September 4, 2011
Posts: 829
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Why is Cardinal Scola's Pallium upside down? (also is this the first time it's ever been given outside of Mass?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by PacoG View Post
The pallium is not a symbol of teaching authority. It is a symbol of metropolitical authority. A metropolitan is first among equals in his province. The pallium symbolizes that primacy of honor. Otherwise, the metropolitan of a province has the same teaching authority as the bishops of the suffragan dioceses in his province. Example: Daniel Cardinal DiNardo, Archbishop of Galveston-Houston and Metropolitan of the Galveston-Houston Province has no more teaching authority than Bishop Daniel Flores of the Diocese of Brownsville. However, when the Cardinal visits the Diocese of Brownsville, he wears his pallium to indicate his primacy of place over Bishop Flores.

At least that is the way I understand it.

The exception would be the pope's pallium. In that case, it is a sign of his Petrine Ministry.
I think VictorDominican wrote that as a joke, not meant to be taken seriously, that it was just a way of putting symbolism on a mistake.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old Sep 22, '11, 4:48 pm
Inquiringperson Inquiringperson is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: March 11, 2011
Posts: 887
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Why is Cardinal Scola's Pallium upside down? (also is this the first time it's ever been given outside of Mass?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by PazzoGrande View Post
I'd assume it's because it was just handed to him upside down and he didn't pay attention as it went on. Not every little mistake is because of the burdens of running the Church.

He does work hard but I think we're reading too much into it when we make it as if everything is a little martyrdom.
You're probably right.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old Sep 22, '11, 7:05 pm
JGMendes4049's Avatar
JGMendes4049 JGMendes4049 is offline
Regular Member
Greeter
Prayer Warrior
 
Join Date: May 10, 2011
Posts: 1,257
Religion: Roman Catholic
Default Re: Cardinal Scola

Quote:
Originally Posted by PacoG View Post
But those archbishops aren't metropolitans and aren't entitled to the pallium without some kind of dispensation. Same thing with titular archbishops and archbishops of non-metropolitical archdioceses.

The pallium is the exclusive vestment of a metropolitan.
I'm talking about the title, not the pallium here. Metropolitans who become non-arch bishops or non-metropolitan archbishops lose their right to use the pallium.
__________________
Joseph
Not Your Average Joe (my blog)

Say the black. Do the red.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old Sep 22, '11, 7:51 pm
SKWill SKWill is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: July 21, 2010
Posts: 166
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Why is Cardinal Scola's Pallium upside down? (also is this the first time it's ever been given outside of Mass?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by PazzoGrande View Post
The Holy Father put the pallium on him upside-down. Was that just a mistake, or was that done for a reason? (I also noticed he sometimes puts on the biretta incorrectly when he puts it on a new Cardinal, so I guess it could just be a mistake.) Also, was this the first time the Holy Father gave a Pallium outside of the regular Pallium Mass?
I'm in the "just a mistake" camp.

As far as presenting the pallium outside of the regular Pallium Mass, according to Father Guy Selvester, the Pallium Mass is a recent tradition while conferral of the pallium to individual metropolitans shortly after their appointments is the older tradition. http://omniapost.blogspot.com/2011/0...um-custom.html
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old Sep 23, '11, 3:46 am
Diakonia Diakonia is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: August 14, 2011
Posts: 226
Religion: Byzantine Ruthenian Catholic
Post Re: Why is Cardinal Scola's Pallium upside down? (also is this the first time it's ever been given outside of Mass?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by PazzoGrande View Post
Nevertheless, in cases like that, I'd think it would be either given to a delegate or the person would just have to wait for the one next year.
The pallium cannot be given to a delegate.

Quote:
I wondered if the Pope gave Scola a special conferral so as to signal something. They say that when he nominated Scola to Milan, it was him signalling that he would favour Scola's candidacy to become the next pope; if that's so, this special treatment could be the Holy Father underlining that.
It is improper for a Pope to suggest who should be his successor.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old Sep 23, '11, 3:50 am
Diakonia Diakonia is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: August 14, 2011
Posts: 226
Religion: Byzantine Ruthenian Catholic
Post Re: Cardinal Scola

Quote:
Originally Posted by JGMendes4049 View Post
Sometimes, when an archbishop is appointed to a diocese where the ordinary is usually a bishop, the Pope gives him the title of archbishop ad personam, so that they're called the Archbishop-Bishop of Anydiocese. Is it possible that Cardinal Scola will be given the title of patriarch ad personam, becoming the Patriarch-Archbishop of Milan? Is there any precedent of a situation like this happening?
The title of patriarch is never conferred ad personam.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old Sep 23, '11, 4:55 am
malphono malphono is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: September 15, 2008
Posts: 5,954
Religion: Syro-Maronite ("old style")
Default Re: Why is Cardinal Scola's Pallium upside down? (also is this the first time it's ever been given outside of Mass?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Diakonia View Post
The pallium cannot be given to a delegate.
Yes, that's true but in the past, at least, IIRC it was not unusual for a pope to send the pallium rather than personally confer it.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old Sep 23, '11, 3:00 pm
VicTorDominican VicTorDominican is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: September 21, 2011
Posts: 56
Default Re: Why is Cardinal Scola's Pallium upside down? (also is this the first time it's ever been given outside of Mass?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by PacoG View Post
The pallium is not a symbol of teaching authority.
I thought a pallium was originally the uniform of a philosopher, hence teaching authority.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Go Back   Catholic Answers Forums > Forums > Liturgy and Sacraments

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search Thread
Search Thread:

Advanced Search
Display

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


advertise with us

Most Active Groups
6490Meet and talk,talk talk
Last by: jeana12
4332CAF Prayer Warriors Support Group
Last by: UpUpAndAway
4011OCD/Scrupulosity Group
Last by: Genevieve II
3652Devotion to the Sorrowful Mother
Last by: wheels10
3591SOLITUDE
Last by: beth40n2
2818Poems and Reflections
Last by: CAshtn16
2800Let's empty Purgatory
Last by: jeana12
2651Catholic Vegetarians & Vegans
Last by: Christine85
2412For seniors and shut- ins
Last by: KrazyKat
2246The Very Fun Club
Last by: Laura15



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 6:22 am.


Copyright © 2004-2013, Catholic Answers.