Prolife vs. Prochoice - Page 3

Julia1996 · #31 Sep 20, '10, 12:53 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by LittleWay92

Actually, what I said was that their lives are equally important because they both have souls. We can't choose the baby over the mother and we can't choose the mother over the baby. We have to try to save both. If the mother needs a surgery or something to live, we can try to do that and if the baby dies, that is a side effect of the treatment. If delivering early will save the mother, we can try to do that and try our best to save the baby with medical treatment. We may have to do risky things to try to save both lives, but no matter what, we cannot simply end the baby's life to save the mother. That is the Church's teaching. Abortion is never an option.
Would the surgery be considered abortion if it is very likely that the baby would die as a result of the surgery?
In the case of a raped teenager, saving the life of the child is more important than saving the mother emotional pain. Everyone in life has a cross to bear. We aren't guarunteed happiness in this life, but by doing what's right and trusting God, we can hope for happiness in heaven.
Ok. Makes sense. Would it still be wrong to give up the baby if the baby would be living an unhappy life, or would be raised as a non-Catholic, assuming the mother is Catholic?
Correct, the Church does not approve of invitro fertilization, even in the case of a couple who can not conceive. We believe that the best option in that situation would be adoption. We also believe it is ok to get surgery or medication to help the parts (such as sperm count or ovulation or hormones in the woman), but for the actual getting pregnant, it needs to happen naturally, through the marital act. Invitro involves the sin of masturbation and also involves destroying unused embryos, The Church forbids invitro for these reasons and I believe for others as well. You can read more about it in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which you can probably find online.

My friend just gave me a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church after I told her I wanted to convert.

I will check up on that.

LittleWay92 · #32 Sep 20, '10, 12:48 pm

No, if the surgery was necessary to save the mother's life, and you tried to save the baby but failed, it would not count as abortion.

I don't think it would necessarily be a sin to give the baby to a non-Catholic family, but the best thing to do would be to select an adoptive family for your baby that is Catholic. It's basically the mother's judgment on who would raise her child the best.

Julia1996 · #33 Sep 21, '10, 2:33 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by LittleWay92

No, if the surgery was necessary to save the mother's life, and you tried to save the baby but failed, it would not count as abortion.
Then the line between life-saving surgery and abortion isn't all that clear. The mother can opt for the surgery knowing that by doing so, she will get rid of her baby. Nobody would know any better. It would all be between her and God.
I don't think it would necessarily be a sin to give the baby to a non-Catholic family, but the best thing to do would be to select an adoptive family for your baby that is Catholic. It's basically the mother's judgment on who would raise her child the best.

But in that case, the baby could be raised an athiest and the baby could go to hell for lack of faith.

LittleWay92 · #34 Sep 21, '10, 3:30 pm

That's why a mother should in good conscience choose a Catholic family.

Sins are always between us and God. The line in that case is very thin, but it is definitely there. The difference between the mother opting for that surgery and the mother choosing to abort the baby is that in the case of the surgery, they will try to save the baby's life. There is always the chance they could succeed. People take risks on their own lives every time they go into surgery, or even step into a car. The intention and only possible effect of the abortion is to kill the baby. When given the choice to take a risk and still try to save the baby or to just purposely terminate its life, it is obvious which we must choose.

Julia1996 · #35 Sep 21, '10, 4:52 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by LittleWay92

That's why a mother should in good conscience choose a Catholic family.

Sins are always between us and God. The line in that case is very thin, but it is definitely there. The difference between the mother opting for that surgery and the mother choosing to abort the baby is that in the case of the surgery, they will try to save the baby's life. There is always the chance they could succeed. People take risks on their own lives every time they go into surgery, or even step into a car. The intention and only possible effect of the abortion is to kill the baby. When given the choice to take a risk and still try to save the baby or to just purposely terminate its life, it is obvious which we must choose.

Sins aren't always just between us and God. If you confess your sins, you bring the priest into the picture. And if other people know you commit a sin, then they may view you differently and are also in the picture.

Taking a risk on the baby's life is sort of abortion. I think that intention is more of the issue here. If a mother only goes for the surgery to get rid of the baby, then that's abortion. If she wants the surgery for other reasons and the baby dies, then it's not.

LittleWay92 · #36 Sep 23, '10, 12:14 pm

True, but I didn't say that sins are *just* between us and God. When priests hear our confessions, they are acting as the link between us and God. They aren't there as a person to judge us. Some sins are seen by other people in our lives, which is why we must be a good example to others. In this case, I would say the mother should choose a Catholic family because she has an obligation to choose good influences for her child.

It is not abortion to choose the surgery for medical purposes because there is a risk that the baby might die. That is like saying that riding in a car is suicide because there is a chance that you could get in an accident. While the chance of dying in an accident might be slimmer than the baby dying from surgery, they are both risks. It is not abortion to try to save both the mother and child. It would be abortion to choose to purposely end the baby's life.

LittleWay92 · #37 Sep 23, '10, 12:18 pm

Also, it is unlikely that the mother would have the surgery just to get rid of the baby. She would probably just abort it if she didn't want it in that case. However, if she did go into the surgery just to kill the baby, it would be her sin and not the doctor's, since his intention would be to save both and hers would be to murder one.

Julia1996 · #38 Sep 23, '10, 6:36 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by LittleWay92

True, but I didn't say that sins are *just* between us and God. When priests hear our confessions, they are acting as the link between us and God. They aren't there as a person to judge us. Some sins are seen by other people in our lives, which is why we must be a good example to others. In this case, I would say the mother should choose a Catholic family because she has an obligation to choose good influences for her child.
Sorry. I didn't catch that.

It is not abortion to choose the surgery for medical purposes because there is a risk that the baby might die. That is like saying that riding in a car is suicide because there is a chance that you could get in an accident. While the chance of dying in an accident might be slimmer than the baby dying from surgery, they are both risks. It is not abortion to try to save both the mother and child. It would be abortion to choose to purposely end the baby's life.

If the surgery isn't all that necessary, and the mother only goes for it to get rid of her baby, then wouldn't it be abortion?

Julia1996 · #39 Sep 23, '10, 6:39 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by LittleWay92

Also, it is unlikely that the mother would have the surgery just to get rid of the baby. She would probably just abort it if she didn't want it in that case. However, if she did go into the surgery just to kill the baby, it would be her sin and not the doctor's, since his intention would be to save both and hers would be to murder one.

If she goes for the surgery, then nobody would know that she was trying to kill her baby, if she decided to abort, then everyone would know.

LittleWay92 · #40 Sep 24, '10, 4:42 pm

Yes, if she goes into the surgery with the intention of trying to kill the baby and the surgery is not necessary, it would be abortion and a sin.

Julia1996 · #41 Sep 27, '10, 6:45 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by LittleWay92

Yes, if she goes into the surgery with the intention of trying to kill the baby and the surgery is not necessary, it would be abortion and a sin.

But she is more likely to commit a sin this way than to go for official "abortion". This way, nobody else would know that she is trying to kill her baby, without the worry of being criticized, she will feel more free to kill her baby. As well, by using surgery, she can always lie to herself and convince herself that the surgery was necessary and thus, not abortion.

LittleWay92 · #42 Sep 28, '10, 12:22 pm

If she knows the surgery is not necessary, it is abortion. If she actually thinks the surgery is necessary and does not intend to kill the child, then it is not.

Julia1996 · #43 Sep 28, '10, 4:53 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by LittleWay92

If she knows the surgery is not necessary, it is abortion. If she actually thinks the surgery is necessary and does not intend to kill the child, then it is not.

I know. Its just so tempting for a teenage mother to get rid of her baby if nobody has to know about it.

eleanorharris · #44 Aug 17, '11, 2:05 pm

Even before I became Catholic, I've sort of been a closet pro-life.

I live in a SUPER liberal area, and I know exactly zero pro-life people, but I still feel like I have to stick to my guns, right? My problem with it is that sometime between sex and birth the baby becomes "alive," but we don't know when. Following that, how can we kill it sometime between these two events?

Plus, I love babies.

I understand that there are cases where girls get raped and they want to abort their babies, but those are the exceptions to the rule. Plus, outlawing abortion would make it less likely for teens to have unprotected sex (or sex at all) knowing that they'd have to have the baby.

I hope that makes sense!

Julia1996 · #45 Oct 31, '11, 6:23 pm

That sounds pretty hard. You never know though, maybe there are a lot of other people in your community who are closet pro-life. You can try to be brave and tell them all what your views are and why. It is a reasonable and acceptable view, there is no reason why they shouldn't accept your right to hold that opinion.

Yeah. From the moment the baby is conceived, it is a living cell and its genetic code says that it's your baby. How could you kill a child that you know is yours? I totally understand how you feel. There's also the issue that ideally, you should love the baby's father and not want to kill his child, especially not a child you created together.

I don't love babies myself, but I still think killing them is wrong.

I agree with the thing about rape. In Hong Kong, you can't abort your baby because you "feel like it". But if you were raped, you can have an abortion up to 24 weeks of pregnancy.

Your comment probably makes more sense than mine! I hope I don't sound too confusing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by eleanorharris

Even before I became Catholic, I've sort of been a closet pro-life.

I live in a SUPER liberal area, and I know exactly zero pro-life people, but I still feel like I have to stick to my guns, right? My problem with it is that sometime between sex and birth the baby becomes "alive," but we don't know when. Following that, how can we kill it sometime between these two events?

Plus, I love babies.

I understand that there are cases where girls get raped and they want to abort their babies, but those are the exceptions to the rule. Plus, outlawing abortion would make it less likely for teens to have unprotected sex (or sex at all) knowing that they'd have to have the baby.

I hope that makes sense!