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  #46  
Old Apr 12, '07, 1:11 pm
Valke2 Valke2 is offline
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Default Re: How could the Jews still be waiting for the Messiah to come?

[quote=ALLFORHIM;2096985]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valke2 View Post

Thanks

Are you taught anything specific about heaven and hell? Like how does one get to either place?
Here's one answer.

In Genesis we read: The Lord God formed man from the dust of earth, and He blew into his nostrils the breath of life (a/k/a the Soul). The Zohar (main text of "Kaballah") teaches that the soul is actually part of God's essence. Since God's essence is spiritual, not physical, we conclude that His essense cannot die. Therefore, there must be an afterlife.

King Solomon confirmed this: "The dust will return to the ground as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it." (Ecclesiastes 12:17)

As Rabbi Shraga Simmons says, for anyone who believes in a just and caring God, the existence of an afterlife makes logical sense. Could it be this world is just a playground without consequences? Did Hitler get away with killing 6,000,000 Jews? No. There is obviously a place where good people receive reward and bad people get punished. (Remember Rambam's 13? see above)

This is the world of doing, and the "world to come" is where we experience the eternal reality of whatever we've become. We do not believe, for example, that after being responsible for the torture and deaths of millions, Hitler could really "end it all" by just swallowing poison. Ultimate justice is found in another dimension.

As to what the afterlife is.... I'll get back to you:
  #47  
Old Apr 12, '07, 1:14 pm
Valke2 Valke2 is offline
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Default Re: How could the Jews still be waiting for the Messiah to come?

One belief is that while we are waiting to go to heaven, we are in what isknown as the world of truth. Here we are shown everything we did, the good and the bad, no punches pulled. Then we are shown everything we could have been had we made the right choices. When we work through the pain of this, we're ready for heaven, for being closer to God. For a few of us, like Hitler and Pauley Shore, Justice is much more severe.
  #48  
Old Apr 12, '07, 2:14 pm
ALLFORHIM ALLFORHIM is offline
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Default Re: How could the Jews still be waiting for the Messiah to come?

[quote=Valke2;2097250]
Quote:
Originally Posted by ALLFORHIM View Post

Here's one answer.

In Genesis we read: The Lord God formed man from the dust of earth, and He blew into his nostrils the breath of life (a/k/a the Soul). The Zohar (main text of "Kaballah") teaches that the soul is actually part of God's essence. Since God's essence is spiritual, not physical, we conclude that His essense cannot die. Therefore, there must be an afterlife.

King Solomon confirmed this: "The dust will return to the ground as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it." (Ecclesiastes 12:17)

As Rabbi Shraga Simmons says, for anyone who believes in a just and caring God, the existence of an afterlife makes logical sense. Could it be this world is just a playground without consequences? Did Hitler get away with killing 6,000,000 Jews? No. There is obviously a place where good people receive reward and bad people get punished. (Remember Rambam's 13? see above)

This is the world of doing, and the "world to come" is where we experience the eternal reality of whatever we've become. We do not believe, for example, that after being responsible for the torture and deaths of millions, Hitler could really "end it all" by just swallowing poison. Ultimate justice is found in another dimension.

As to what the afterlife is.... I'll get back to you:
Hi,
So far Im with you
  #49  
Old Apr 12, '07, 2:15 pm
ALLFORHIM ALLFORHIM is offline
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Default Re: How could the Jews still be waiting for the Messiah to come?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valke2 View Post
One belief is that while we are waiting to go to heaven, we are in what isknown as the world of truth. Here we are shown everything we did, the good and the bad, no punches pulled. Then we are shown everything we could have been had we made the right choices. When we work through the pain of this, we're ready for heaven, for being closer to God. For a few of us, like Hitler and Pauley Shore, Justice is much more severe.
Paulie Shore Tha's funny! How we forget how Hollywood messes with peopl's mind.
  #50  
Old Apr 12, '07, 2:38 pm
Sixtus Sixtus is offline
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Default Re: How could the Jews still be waiting for the Messiah to come?

Quote:
Surely the Pharisees & Scribes knew the Bible, so
How could the Jews still be waiting for the Messiah to come?
Their wait will not be in veign
  #51  
Old Apr 12, '07, 2:41 pm
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guanophore guanophore is offline
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Default Re: How could the Jews still be waiting for the Messiah to come?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob67 View Post
Surely the Pharisees & Scribes knew the Bible, so
How could the Jews still be waiting for the Messiah to come?

"but the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected the purpose of God for themselves, not having been baptized by [John].)"

The baptism of John was a baptism of repentance. they were unrepentant, and therefore, when the gospel was preached to them, it could not be mixed with their faith, resulting in salvation.
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"The tradition of the Apostles has been made manifest throughout the world, and can be found in every Church by those who wish to know the truth." -- Irenaeus, writing about A.D. 189, on how the unity of the Church was based on the Apostolic Tradition everywhere handed down (paradosis).




Last edited by guanophore; Apr 12, '07 at 2:42 pm. Reason: typo
  #52  
Old Nov 12, '11, 9:30 pm
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fisherman carl fisherman carl is offline
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Default Re: Does anyone know of other Old Testament references to the coming of the Messiah?

I realize this is an old thread. *But, I felt moved to address these 5 points

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valke2 View Post
As for what we exepect the Messiah to do:*

1. gather all Jews to Israel.

2. Usher in an era of peace throughout the world.*

3. Rebuild the Temple

4. all the world will worship the one God.

5. He the Jewish people will observe the mitzvot (something that, as Jews for Judaism points out Christianity discourages)
1. *We see this partly fulfilled in the book of Matthew where Jesus goes around to the different regions to reunite the tribes of Israel proclaiming 'repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand'. *The greater fullment is in the message of Matthew that makes gentiles on equal footing with God under the New Covenant that Jesus shed his blood to give us. *Jews and Gentiles equal under the New Covenant. *This, the Pharisaical Jews could not grasp. *The new Israel, the Church, included the gentiles as equals. *St. Paul said the Jews will be blind for a time until the full measure of gentiles have been grafted in. *And, the Jews will be saved before the second coming.

2. Jesus gave us his peace. *He said, "Peace I leave with you; my peace I give to you. Not as the world gives do I give it to you. Do not let your hearts be troubled or afraid.". The peace that Jesus gives us is not a worldly peace but is of the spirit. When Jesus returns he will set all things right. *

3. *Jesus is the new Temple. *He said, "Destroy this temple and I will raise it up in 3 days.". *Jesus said, "Something greater than the Temple is here." *the Jewish religious leaders did not recognise who that someone was. *Jesus, foresaw the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in 70 A.D. as is indicated in many passages in the gospels. *Jesus said this would occur because they failed to recognize the Messiah, the Son of God.

4. *Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord!
(Phil 2:10-11)

5. Jesus taught us the greatest commandment is to love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and mind. *And the second is to love your neighbor as yourself. *For this sums up the Law and the prophets.

On the Journey Home recently there is a testimony of a Jew who eventually converted to Catholic Christianity. *You can watch it here -*http://m.youtube.com/?rdm=4oholj8of&...&start=0&gl=CA
  #53  
Old Nov 12, '11, 9:51 pm
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fisherman carl fisherman carl is offline
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Default Re: How could the Jews still be waiting for the Messiah to come?

Sorry, here is the correct link to Journey Home story on Dan Burke

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWfYQGIadQQ
  #54  
Old Nov 12, '11, 11:39 pm
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Kaninchen Kaninchen is offline
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Default Re: Does anyone know of other Old Testament references to the coming of the Messiah?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fisherman carl View Post
I realize this is an old thread. *But, I felt moved to address these 5 points



1. *We see this partly fulfilled in the book of Matthew where Jesus goes around to the different regions to reunite the tribes of Israel proclaiming 'repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand'. *The greater fullment is in the message of Matthew that makes gentiles on equal footing with God under the New Covenant that Jesus shed his blood to give us. *Jews and Gentiles equal under the New Covenant. *This, the Pharisaical Jews could not grasp. *The new Israel, the Church, included the gentiles as equals. *St. Paul said the Jews will be blind for a time until the full measure of gentiles have been grafted in. *And, the Jews will be saved before the second coming.

2. Jesus gave us his peace. *He said, "Peace I leave with you; my peace I give to you. Not as the world gives do I give it to you. Do not let your hearts be troubled or afraid.". The peace that Jesus gives us is not a worldly peace but is of the spirit. When Jesus returns he will set all things right. *

3. *Jesus is the new Temple. *He said, "Destroy this temple and I will raise it up in 3 days.". *Jesus said, "Something greater than the Temple is here." *the Jewish religious leaders did not recognise who that someone was. *Jesus, foresaw the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in 70 A.D. as is indicated in many passages in the gospels. *Jesus said this would occur because they failed to recognize the Messiah, the Son of God.

4. *Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord!
(Phil 2:10-11)

5. Jesus taught us the greatest commandment is to love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and mind. *And the second is to love your neighbor as yourself. *For this sums up the Law and the prophets.

On the Journey Home recently there is a testimony of a Jew who eventually converted to Catholic Christianity. *You can watch it here -*http://m.youtube.com/?rdm=4oholj8of&...&start=0&gl=CA
Valke was banned in the Great Obama Wars of 2008 so he's hardly likely to be reading or responding to your post. You'll find lots of much newer 'Why don't Jews believe in Jesus?' threads if you look - there's usually at least one a month.

They always end up 'Oh yes he was!/Oh no he wasn't'.
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A little bit of these in all of us?
  #55  
Old Nov 14, '11, 12:29 am
Crumpy Crumpy is offline
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Default Re: How could the Jews still be waiting for the Messiah to come?

Check the document library at the ewtn.com website for "The Jewish People and their Scriptures in the Christian Bible" put out by the Pontifical Biblical Commission. And, be sure to read Benedict XVI's second volume of Jesus of Nazareth and his apostolic exhortation, Verbum Domini.

The first document tells a lot in straightforward terms. Benedict says that the NT wouldn't make sense without the OT. In the theological sense, you can't understand Jesus without the old testament perspective.

As an example, somewhere Paul talks about us as being earthen vessels. That's not something he just grabbed out of the air to use as some metaphor to explain anything. I'm reading a Jewish devotional book right now and it also uses the metaphor of people as earthen vessels.

This is tremendously significant theologically (and may be confusing to many, too). It was used in this book to illustrate that people are basically and fundamentally good, as Valke2 has mentioned someplace above. As a vessel, we can "contain" sins that we commit, but we can empty them by (Jewish or Catholic) repentence which includes their respective forms of confession.

My point is, that this thread is discussing a subject which even the Church itself has just formally scratched the surface.

In a more general response to this thread, I've read a comment that if you start reading the bible from Genesis onwards, that you'd like want to be a Jew. If you start with the NT, like a gospel, you want to be a Christian.

The Jews are still waiting for a messiah because of the reasons that have already been expressed.

In the first instance, Jesus told the two disciples (on the road to Emmaus) that the OT was fulfilled in him, so we confidently and comfortably move on from that baseline, whether we totally understand it or not.

So, restated, this thread may be restated, what did Jesus tell these disciples?

see next post of mine
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  #56  
Old Nov 14, '11, 12:31 am
Crumpy Crumpy is offline
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Default Re: How could the Jews still be waiting for the Messiah to come?

The Muslims claim to be children of Abraham, as do Christians and Jews, So, the more general issue goes back to that covenant, and how Christianity is the fulfillment of the abrahamic covenant so that Abraham would be the father of all nations.

Obviously, the Muslims are vying for that designation.

So, the complete answer includes why the Muslims don't belong, as Muslims, but Christians do, and they do to the exclusion (also) of Jews. The key is the 'catholic' or 'universal' nature of the Church and its adherence to the gospel of Jesus Christ.

We need an exhaustive Christological commentary on the OT.
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  #57  
Old Nov 14, '11, 3:20 pm
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genesius28 genesius28 is offline
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Default Re: How could the Jews still be waiting for the Messiah to come?

One might ask a similar question from a Baha'i perspective: Why are Christians still waiting for Christ's second coming, when He returned "like a thief in the night" in the person of Baha'u'llah in 1817?

Because, when presented with "evidence," either you're convinced that the prophecies were fulfilled, or you're not. It doesn't matter how much a prophecy seems to be fulfilled to one person, if it doesn't fit the expectations of another. There's also a case to be made that some prophecies get twisted to seem as though they're fulfilled -- if you don't believe in that the New Testament is divinely inspired, then it's easy to say that the authors of the gospels merely made up stories to fit the prophecies they were already familiar with.
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