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  #1  
Old Jan 10, '12, 9:09 am
smad0142 smad0142 is offline
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Default Jewish Law Children and Stepparents

Where in the Torah or in the Hebrew Scriptures does it say that a child must take an aged parent into his home, either due to old age or because the other parent has passed? Where, if anywhere, does the Torah or Hebrew Scriptures address the relationship between a step-parent and a step-child? Is it the same as that of a biological parent? Thanks so very much!!
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Old Jan 10, '12, 10:06 am
Barbkw Barbkw is offline
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Default Re: Jewish Law Children and Stepparents

Might check here.

I was listening to Catholic Answers on radio last week, either it was Dr. Sri or Brant Pitre who discussed Jesus' anger at the tradition which gave tithing precedence over the care of a person's elderly parents.

http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm
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Old Jan 10, '12, 10:28 am
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Kaninchen Kaninchen is offline
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Default Re: Jewish Law Children and Stepparents

Quote:
Originally Posted by smad0142 View Post
Where in the Torah or in the Hebrew Scriptures does it say that a child must take an aged parent into his home, either due to old age or because the other parent has passed? Where, if anywhere, does the Torah or Hebrew Scriptures address the relationship between a step-parent and a step-child? Is it the same as that of a biological parent? Thanks so very much!!
These sorts of questions take one into the context of Talmud etc where the implication of the command of 'honouring' one's parents are discussed/interpreted - caring for them is taken as part of honouring them.

As to step-parents, one has the duty to honour them while whichever of your parents they've married is alive and it's regarded as a good thing to do so afterwards.
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Old Jan 10, '12, 10:07 pm
MorningSong51 MorningSong51 is offline
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Default Re: Jewish Law Children and Stepparents

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Originally Posted by Kaninchen View Post
These sorts of questions take one into the context of Talmud etc where the implication of the command of 'honouring' one's parents are discussed/interpreted - caring for them is taken as part of honouring them.

As to step-parents, one has the duty to honour them while whichever of your parents they've married is alive and it's regarded as a good thing to do so afterwards.
Family, Parent & Child:
Laws, Issues and Relationships
Selected Laws For Raising Children and For Honoring Parents


Torah's laws and ethics in the domain of honoring parents.
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Old Jan 10, '12, 11:10 pm
meltzerboy meltzerboy is offline
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Default Re: Jewish Law Children and Stepparents

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Thank you for this most informative link.
  #6  
Old Jan 10, '12, 11:30 pm
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Kaninchen Kaninchen is offline
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Default Re: Jewish Law Children and Stepparents

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Originally Posted by MorningSong51 View Post
The op wanted a collection of Torah/Tanakh ("Do this/Don't do that") statements relating to the situations he outlined and they don't exist in that kind of neat way but, rather, in what could be described as legal interpretation (as outlined in your citation) of the commandment to 'honour'.
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Old Jan 11, '12, 11:06 am
MorningSong51 MorningSong51 is offline
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Default Re: Jewish Law Children and Stepparents

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaninchen View Post
The op wanted a collection of Torah/Tanakh ("Do this/Don't do that") statements relating to the situations he outlined and they don't exist in that kind of neat way but, rather, in what could be described as legal interpretation (as outlined in your citation) of the commandment to 'honour'.
You mean an answer regarding step parents and child?

Adoptive, step-, and foster parents are included in this sacred relationship--"He who brings up a child is to be called its father, not he who gave birth" (Shemot Rabbah 46:5 and elsewhere)—although the mutual legal obligations are not, strictly speaking, identical. Parents offering the traditional Friday night blessing to their children do so as God's emissaries.
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Old Jan 11, '12, 11:49 am
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Kaninchen Kaninchen is offline
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Default Re: Jewish Law Children and Stepparents

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Originally Posted by MorningSong51 View Post
You mean an answer regarding step parents and child?

Adoptive, step-, and foster parents are included in this sacred relationship--"He who brings up a child is to be called its father, not he who gave birth" (Shemot Rabbah 46:5 and elsewhere)—although the mutual legal obligations are not, strictly speaking, identical. Parents offering the traditional Friday night blessing to their children do so as God's emissaries.
If you read the op's questions, they're about chapter-verse Torah/Tanakh obligations of child to parent and child to step-parent. As I indicated in my first response, those sorts of things are found in 'Oral Torah', ie in the mountain of interpretive writings. 'Shemot Rabbah' isn't in Torah/Nevi'im/Ketuvim (ie the Tanakh, what Christians call the 'OT'), it's Midrash.
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  #9  
Old Jan 11, '12, 10:36 pm
MorningSong51 MorningSong51 is offline
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Default Re: Jewish Law Children and Stepparents

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Originally Posted by Kaninchen View Post
If you read the op's questions, they're about chapter-verse Torah/Tanakh obligations of child to parent and child to step-parent. As I indicated in my first response, those sorts of things are found in 'Oral Torah', ie in the mountain of interpretive writings. 'Shemot Rabbah' isn't in Torah/Nevi'im/Ketuvim (ie the Tanakh, what Christians call the 'OT'), it's Midrash.
The Aggadah is part of Judaism's Oral law (תורה שבעל פה) — the traditions providing the authoritative interpretation of the Written Law. In this context, the widely held view in Rabbinic literature is that the aggadah is in fact a medium for the transmission of fundamental teachings (Homiletic Sayings - מאמרים לימודיים) or for explanations of verses in the Tanakh (Exegetic Sayings - מאמרים ביאוריים).http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aggadah

backing up a bit on the article:

Aggadah (Aramaic אַגָּדָה: tales, lore; pl. Aggadot or (Ashkenazi) Aggados; Also known as Aggad or Aggadh.) refers to the homiletic and non-legalistic exegetical texts in the classical rabbinic literature of Judaism, particularly as recorded in the Talmud and Midrash

Quote:
Most scholars understand Sh'mot (Exodus) Rabbah to be a combination of two separate works, each probably written sometime between the ninth and eleventh century CE. The first half of the midrash offers a line-by-line commentary on the first ten chapters of the book of Exodus, and the second half consists of a series of homilies on chapters twelve through forty. Similarly, Bamidbar (Numbers) Rabbah comprises an exegetical commentary on the first seven chapters of the book of Numbers and a homiletic commentary on the rest of the book. The first part of Bamidbar Rabbah is notable for its inclusion of esoteric material and for its apparent familiarity with Sefer Yetzirah, an early work of Jewish mysticism. http://www.myjewishlearning.com/text...h_Rabbah.shtml
quoting:

Quote:
The Talmud (Sanhedrin 19b = Megillah 13a) deduces from a number of biblical stories that "whoever raises an orphan in his home is considered by Scripture to have given birth to him".

Similarly, we learn in the midrash (Shemot Rabbah 46:5) "a person who raises a child is called the father and not the person who gives birth".

Schechter Institute of Jewish Studies
Understood, on where the OP needed to read this from....

more, see additional post
  #10  
Old Jan 11, '12, 10:54 pm
jonbhorton jonbhorton is offline
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Default Re: Jewish Law Children and Stepparents

Quote:
Originally Posted by MorningSong51 View Post
You mean an answer regarding step parents and child?

Adoptive, step-, and foster parents are included in this sacred relationship--"He who brings up a child is to be called its father, not he who gave birth" (Shemot Rabbah 46:5 and elsewhere)—although the mutual legal obligations are not, strictly speaking, identical. Parents offering the traditional Friday night blessing to their children do so as God's emissaries.
Forgive me if I am assuming too much, but, since you're citing Midrash, I assume you're Jewish. I'm not trying to be combative, just curious how the point is reconciled/argued as appearing against Torah precedent:

Doesn't that conflict with this:

Quote:
1 At that time Juda went down from his brethren, and turned in to a certain Odollamite, named Hiras. 2 And he saw there the daughter of a man of Chanaan, called Sue: and taking her to wife, he went in unto her. 3 And she conceived, and bore a son, and called his name Her. 4 And conceiving again, she bore a son, and called him Onan. 5 She bore also a third: whom she called Sela. after whose birth, she ceased to bear any more.
6 And Juda took a wife for Her his firstborn, whose name was Thamar. 7 And Her, the firstborn of Juda, was wicked in the sight of the Lord: and was slain by him. 8 Juda, therefore add to Onan his son: Go in to thy brother's wife and marry her, that thou mayst raise seed to thy brother. 9 He knowing that the children should not be his, when he went in to his brother's wife, spilled his seed upon the ground, lest children should be born in his brother's name. 10 And therefore the Lord slew him, be- cause he did a detestable thing.
- Genesis[Bereishith/YaVashev] 38:1-10. ( though from the Douay-Rheims translation, the concepts match a fully Jewish view of the same passage: http://bible.ort.org/books/torahd5.a...se=1&portion=9 )

and this:

Quote:
5 When brethren dwell together, and one of them dieth without children, the wife of the deceased shall not marry to another: but his brother shall take her, and raise up seed for his brother: 6 And the first son he shall have of her he shall call by his name, that his name be not abolished out of Israel. 7 But if he will not take his brother's wife, who by law belongeth to him, the woman shall go to the gate of the city, and call upon the ancients, and say: My husband's brother refuseth to raise up his brother's name in Israel: and will not take me to wife. 8 And they shall cause him to be sent for forthwith, and shall ask him. If he answer: I will not take her to wife: 9 The woman shall come to him before the ancients, and shall take off his shoe from his foot, and spit in his face, and say: So shall it be done to the man that will not build up his brother's house: 10 And his name shall be called in Israel, the house of the unshod.
Deuteronomy [Devarim/Ki Tetse] 25:5-10 (text agrees: http://bible.ort.org/books/torahd5.a...e=3&portion=49 )

It seems to me that the Torah Law sets up precedent that the brother would become a de facto adoptive/step-parent to the first child despite both raising him and actually contributing the necessary components for conception.

My question, then, is does this Midrash expand in light of the Torah law, or mention it, and reconcile itself in unity with it; or is it understood outside of specific cases of the Torah specifying on the situation which is presented, which then allows the Torah precedent in legal standing? If the latter is the case, does that apply to this Midrash only, or all Midrash?

Thank you.
  #11  
Old Jan 11, '12, 11:24 pm
MorningSong51 MorningSong51 is offline
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Default Re: Jewish Law Children and Stepparents

"When God asks us to honor our fathers and mothers - that is, those who have passed on to us, their descendants, the revelation of God - that means, concretely, the entire history of the Election, of God's revelation as the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of the patriarchs. This commandment regarding fathers and mothers is that referred to in Deuteronomy: "and these words which I command you this day shall be upon your heart; and you shall teach them diligently to your children" (Deuteronomy 6:6-7). Through the generations of humanity, the Election and God's faithfulness are inscribed in history. And the way in which God himself observes the commandment can be seen in this choice of the patriarchs, in his choice of Israel. By choosing his people to be a blessing for all mankind, God makes of the history of human generation a history of salvation. It is not a question of honoring one's parents for the sake of obedience, but because the history of mankind's generation is a sacred history in the love of God for humanity, from which he chose Israel, his servant, so that all nations, in Israel, can participate in the same blessing.

Christ fulfills this commandment not only by his obedience to Joseph and Mary. Far more, he opens the family to an eschatological dimension when he says: "Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?....For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother, and sister, and mother" (Matthew 12:48, 50) He creates us as brothers in God, directing our obedience toward the only Father, the Heavenly Father." Cardinal Jean-Marie Lustiger - The Promise...


and there's more on this.....
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Old Jan 12, '12, 9:12 pm
MorningSong51 MorningSong51 is offline
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Default Re: Jewish Law Children and Stepparents

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonbhorton View Post
Forgive me if I am assuming too much, but, since you're citing Midrash, I assume you're Jewish. I'm not trying to be combative, just curious how the point is reconciled/argued as appearing against Torah precedent:
Technically, no - I'm not Jewish, but my gr-grandparents (since deceased) are. When I went searching for some background history on my mother's side of the family, I found some information regarding their history (not found out - because I had some idea that the family history was Jewish)

Kinda of a funny story and yet not, when I was growing up, and very young, my grandmother, again - on my mother's side, explained to me and my cousin about something that was very symbolic that her father (by tradition) carried over to her. After she told us both the story - both my cousin and I stood there looking at my grandmother, so we followed the same tradition over without realizing how my grandmother would react.

Later on, I told her what both me and my cousin did and she just shook her head and asked 'us' both "why?" When my gr-grandfather wanted to return back to his home town in Europe, my grandmother was very upset and asked her father not to go back, from what I understood - the list of names of families was still (and at that time) being enforced, or so that I heard. There have been throughout my life - indications of the Jewish background history. Once, I remember, my mother's reaction to dating a boy from high school who's family's background was from Lebanon, I told her at least he was Catholic - and Christian, the ringing of the door in the background and my mother putting her utensils down from the table to open up the door - as I tried to introduce him. When the boy's family found out about the family's background on our end of the table, it was kinda of a mutual parting. Again, when I was a kid - I considered it as any other cultural background - you know, Greek - Italian - Irish - there's no days off from school if your Jewish, only Irish - St Patrick's day.

Out of High School and into the work force, I meant a friend that was Dutch - Jewish, she and her family were returning back to Holland. I remember hearing her talk about her grandmother reaction to the trip and so I shared my story with her about my grandmother and her father. The girl's mother and grandmother hide in the streets of Holland eating from garbage cans, and living in an abandoned building. The Grandmother's family got them out - and when she came to New York, the first thing she saw was the police on horseback, so she ran into the alley's to hide. The grandmother was so scared - even years later, the girl, once in Holland, had to call home everyday so that her grandmother could hear her voice. I remember, the fear in my grandmother's voice when she found that her father wanted to return - I thought, at first did something happen, why is my grandmother so upset?

I don't know how to describe what a sense of that feeling of being Jewish - there are those who practice the faith and live it but then there are those who had family members who were. I remember many stories - and the questions that are on certain threads, that I can answer but do I stretch in that direction. We had a large family (#1) - and the members of the family extended to another larger family, that (from what I understood) helped my grandfather's dad to the U.S - there were two brothers. And this might answer your question, the 1st brother's mother died when he was (and I think) 12 years old, and my grandfather's mother died at child birth - two mothers, two son's. The father died when he came to the U.S, and from what I understood the older brother was 14 and my grandfather (well) was very young. There is a lake in Wisconsin named after his father - and I don't know how that was done, but its an open fishery.
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Old Jan 12, '12, 11:21 pm
MorningSong51 MorningSong51 is offline
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Default Re: Jewish Law Children and Stepparents

"Go in to thy brother's wife and marry her, that thou mayst raise seed to thy brother"
  • if a woman were pregnant at the time of her husband's death, the child which is eventually born is considered the child of the deceased.
  • A divorced or widowed woman, for example, must wait three months before she can remarry because, should she be pregnant with her first husband's child or become pregnant with the second husband's child soon after her remarriage, paternity would be uncertain

In an example: Hagar is used by Sarah as a surrogate mother whose womb apparently is available at no financial cost to her mistress. Sarah's statement to Abraham literally are the first words she speaks in the biblical text. The phrase she uses creates a pun, for the literal Hebrew translation of her words, "I shall have a chld through her" are "ib-ba-neh" - I will be built up - is a word play which also could mean "sonned" through her ( the Hebrew "ben" is son).

The child belongs technically to the primary couple - the 1st wife, and the 2nd wife (Hagar) is secondary.

I'm going to give you some websites and you can view them - my source of thought on this subject came under Woman in Judaism because some of the technical aspect - fell under family law:

Resources:

Women in Judaism: (Go to Previous issues and choice which title you would like to read - the one I liked - Business Women in the Mishnaic and Talmudic period)
A Multidisciplinary Journal :http://www.utoronto.ca/wjudaism/jour...nal_index.html


Medical Ethics and Halacha: http://www.daat.ac.il/daat/english/index.html

I had a lot to review - this was a subject that was given on another forum, some of the information I tried to retain from various sources

Ba'alei Ha-Nefesh: http://jwa.org/encyclopedia/article/baalei-ha-nefesh

Infertile Wife in Rabbinic Judaism:http://jwa.org/encyclopedia/article/...bbinic-judaism
  #14  
Old Jan 13, '12, 12:12 am
MorningSong51 MorningSong51 is offline
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Default Re: Jewish Law Children and Stepparents

Quote:
Originally Posted by meltzerboy View Post
Thank you for this most informative link.
You're more than welcome and I hope that you will read some of the others, as well. I hope that I have given out good information and an explanation for the reasons. There's much to know and understand, but there's a point that I have to be satisfied with what I've gained.
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Old Jan 13, '12, 11:23 am
jonbhorton jonbhorton is offline
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Default Re: Jewish Law Children and Stepparents

Quote:
Originally Posted by MorningSong51 View Post
"Go in to thy brother's wife and marry her, that thou mayst raise seed to thy brother"
  • if a woman were pregnant at the time of her husband's death, the child which is eventually born is considered the child of the deceased.
  • A divorced or widowed woman, for example, must wait three months before she can remarry because, should she be pregnant with her first husband's child or become pregnant with the second husband's child soon after her remarriage, paternity would be uncertain

In an example: Hagar is used by Sarah as a surrogate mother whose womb apparently is available at no financial cost to her mistress. Sarah's statement to Abraham literally are the first words she speaks in the biblical text. The phrase she uses creates a pun, for the literal Hebrew translation of her words, "I shall have a chld through her" are "ib-ba-neh" - I will be built up - is a word play which also could mean "sonned" through her ( the Hebrew "ben" is son).

The child belongs technically to the primary couple - the 1st wife, and the 2nd wife (Hagar) is secondary.

I'm going to give you some websites and you can view them - my source of thought on this subject came under Woman in Judaism because some of the technical aspect - fell under family law:

Resources:

Women in Judaism: (Go to Previous issues and choice which title you would like to read - the one I liked - Business Women in the Mishnaic and Talmudic period)
A Multidisciplinary Journal :http://www.utoronto.ca/wjudaism/jour...nal_index.html


Medical Ethics and Halacha: http://www.daat.ac.il/daat/english/index.html

I had a lot to review - this was a subject that was given on another forum, some of the information I tried to retain from various sources

Ba'alei Ha-Nefesh: http://jwa.org/encyclopedia/article/baalei-ha-nefesh

Infertile Wife in Rabbinic Judaism:http://jwa.org/encyclopedia/article/...bbinic-judaism
Based on what you've explained, this is either outright contradictory to the context set forth in Gen 38:1-10 and Deut 25:5-10, or works within the framework's appearance of holes- though this is not clear from the explanations you have provided.

Quote:
8 Juda, therefore add to Onan his son: Go in to thy brother's wife and marry her, that thou mayst raise seed to thy brother. 9 He knowing that the children should not be his, when he went in to his brother's wife, spilled his seed upon the ground, lest children should be born in his brother's name.
Unless his older brother's sperm were somehow working outside of time and space, this exhortation and subsequent law are directly contradicted by the information you have presented when read in context.

Here is the actual law, again:

Quote:
5 When brethren dwell together, and one of them dies without children, the wife of the deceased shall not marry to another: but his brother shall take her, and raise up seed for his brother: 6 And the first son he shall have of her he shall call by his name, that his name be not abolished out of Israel. 7 But if he will not take his brother's wife, who by law belongs to him, the woman shall go to the gate of the city, and call upon the ancients, and say: My husband's brother refuses to raise up his brother's name in Israel: and will not take me to wife. 8 And they shall cause him to be sent for forthwith, and shall ask him. If he answer: I will not take her to wife: 9 The woman shall come to him before the ancients, and shall take off his shoe from his foot, and spit in his face, and say: So shall it be done to the man that will not build up his brother's house: 10 And his name shall be called in Israel, the house of the unshod.
Midrash may support this notion outside of the specifics of the law, but the law is specific and if not followed correctly, the Midrash is in fact going against the Law.

You still have no answered my question, or perhaps you have...
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