SPLIT: Confessing to a priest not in the Bible - Page 4

JOE OBERR · #46 Jan 16, '12, 12:23 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by topdesk

The bible is the spirit breathed word of God.

That's true, I don't deny that. But you haven't answered my question. Where does the spirit breathed word of God in the bible say that all christian doctrine and practice must be found in the bible?

Savior2012 · #47 Jan 16, '12, 12:23 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barbkw

See post #38.

In addition, recall what Jesus said to the Apostles concerning Peter being the "Rock" upon which He would build His Church.

I understand that, I am just saying there is no scripture saying sins can only be forgiven by a Priest. That is based in tradition not biblically

Barbkw · #48 Jan 16, '12, 12:26 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Savior2012

I understand that, I am just saying there is no scripture saying sins can only be forgiven by a Priest. That is based in tradition not biblically

Yes, there is Scripture. John 20:23.

God didn't give you the power to forgive your own sins. God the Father gave the authority to His Son and Jesus gave that authority to His Apostles, and to His Church.

Savior2012 · #49 Jan 16, '12, 12:37 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barbkw

Yes, there is Scripture. John 20:23.

God didn't give you the power to forgive your own sins. God the Father gave the authority to His Son and Jesus gave that authority to His Apostles, and to His Church.

Half the story;

Biblically Christ says we can have our sins forgiven directly through Him numerous times in scripture, In tradition your are correct we need a Priest.

**Church Militant** · #50 Jan 16, '12, 12:44 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Savior2012

I understand that, I am just saying there is no scripture saying sins can only be forgiven by a Priest. That is based in tradition not biblically

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barbkw

Yes, there is Scripture. John 20:23.

God didn't give you the power to forgive your own sins. God the Father gave the authority to His Son and Jesus gave that authority to His Apostles, and to His Church.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Savior2012

Half the story;

Biblically Christ says we can have our sins forgiven directly through Him numerous times in scripture, In tradition your are correct we need a Priest.

S2012, you have this all messed up. Venial sins are absolved at the penitential rite and the reception of the Eucharist at Mass. Mortal sins...those "unto death" as the New Testament calls them, do indeed need the sacramental absolution instituted by Our Lord as indicated in the scripture citation from Barbkw above.

John Martignoni explains it very well when he says,

Quote:

Why do Catholics confess their sins to a priest, rather than going directly to God?
Well, the quick answer is because that's the way God wants us to do it. In James 5:16, God, through Sacred Scripture, commands us to "confess our sins to one another." Notice, Scripture does not say confess your sins straight to God and only to God...it says confess your sins to one another. In Matthew, chapter 9, verse 6, Jesus tells us that He was given authority on earth to forgive sins. And then Scripture proceeds to tell us, in verse 8, that this authority was given to "men"...plural.
In John 20, verses 21-23, what is the 1st thing Jesus says to the gathered disciples on the night of His resurrection? "Jesus said to them, 'Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.'" How did the Father send Jesus? Well, we just saw in Mt 9 that the Father sent Jesus with the authority on earth to forgive sins. Now, Jesus sends out His disciples as the Father has sent Him...so, what authority must Jesus be sending His disciples out with? The authority on earth to forgive sins. And, just in case they didn't get it, verses 22-23 say this, "And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, 'Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.'"
Why would Jesus give the Apostles the power to forgive or to retain sins if He wasn't expecting folks to confess their sins to them? And how could they forgive or retain sins if no one was confessing their sins to them?
The Bible tells us to confess our sins to one another. It also tells us that God gave men the authority on Earth to forgive sins. Jesus sends out His disciples with the authority on earth to forgive sins. When Catholics confess our sins to a priest, we are simply following the plan laid down by Jesus Christ. He forgives sins through the priest...it is God's power, but He exercises that power through the ministry of the priest.

PJM · #51 Jan 16, '12, 12:47 pm

Quote:

=Savior2012;8830619]Do we need a mediator to have our sins forgiven or can we pray ask God directly for forgiveness,..... I am not convinced either way and trying to iron that one out.

PLEASE READ my post # 19 for the answer is DETAIL

God Bless,
Pat

**Church Militant** · #52 Jan 16, '12, 12:49 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JOE OBERR

That's true, I don't deny that. But you haven't answered my question. Where does the spirit breathed word of God in the bible say that all christian doctrine and practice must be found in the bible?

It doesn't, as we've seen several times over in discussions/debates here on CAF.

Philthy · #53 Jan 16, '12, 12:50 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by topdesk

Can I just direct you to the scripture "Psalm 103:12
As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us."

Thanks for the detour! I'll assume your intention for the detour has been left unspoken...

Quote:

When Jesus died on the cross the last thing he uttered was "It is finished." What is finished? The sacrifice once and for all. When Jesus died He became the sacrifice and took ALL our sins to the grave and then rose again on the third day glorious!

Awesome!!!

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All He asks from us is that we enter into a relationship with Him and accept His death (where He took our sins away) and His new life (where we are made righteous). When we are born again, which is accepting His death and life we are born into His new life and our sins in the past, present and the future are forgiven.

Wait a second! I thought you just got through saying that "It (was) finished" on the Cross. Now you seem to be saying that it isn't actually finished, but that in order for it to be finished we have to do something: accept Him. Am I correct on both counts:
A) that the forgiveness you spoke of above remains - in a sense - unfinished in terms of its application to each of us until we "accept him"?; and
B) that the only thing required to finish the "finished" sacrifice is to accept him?

It would be best to clear this up before covering anything else you have to say....

blessings!

Barbkw · #54 Jan 16, '12, 12:56 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Savior2012

Half the story;

Biblically Christ says we can have our sins forgiven directly through Him numerous times in scripture, In tradition your are correct we need a Priest.

What tradition are you referring to? Common tradition or Sacred Tradition.

These are Jesus' words to the Apostles (in sequence, after He gave the keys to Peter and He told him that He would build His Church upon that "Rock".

Jesus then said, "Whose sins you forgive, they are forgiven. Whose sins you hold bound, they are held bound."

Barbkw · #55 Jan 16, '12, 12:58 pm

Quote:

"Psalm 103:12
As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us."

In the Psalms, the Israelites were having their sins removed - through animal sacrifice and through a High Priest on the Day of Atonement.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but they were still worshipping through the use of the desert Tabernacle at that point.

Pheonix · #56 Jan 16, '12, 12:59 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Savior2012

Half the story;

Biblically Christ says we can have our sins forgiven directly through Him numerous times in scripture, In tradition your are correct we need a Priest.

I'm curious: why does it seem like you're always advocating that the majority of Catholic teachings are strictly Tradition-based? While it's true the Church does not adhere to the fallacious nature of Sola Scriptura, we likewise do not define our doctrine, dogmas, and teachings from Tradition alone either. You seem to be implying the Church is Sola Traditium, which is a false assertion; the Church teaches Scriptura et Traditio (alongside the Magisterium).

All one has to do is look at the Catechism to see that this is the Catholic line of thinking. It does an excellent job at thoroughly Catholic beliefs and teachings. The Catechism even gives multiple references to the Scripture that supports each respective belief. All of our beliefs have some backing from Scripture. If you disagree, then you are disagreeing with the Church herself; the Church does not claim her teachings come strictly from Tradition. You seem to claim otherwise, so please provide a statement from any Church document which asserts many of our beliefs come from Tradition alone.

Now, onto the confessing to a priest. Yes, there is nothing wrong with confessing directly to God; we are encouraged to do so, in fact. However, how do you know your direct confession was sincere and perfect (i.e. perfect contrition). I don't know about you, but I would not want to risk the state of my soul over something so uncertain. I feel much better confessing to a priest and know for sure my sins are absolved and forgiven.

Jesus specifically told His Apostles to go forth and forgive sins. Everything Christ did (and still does do) serves some purpose. Therefore, there has to be a reason Jesus told the Apostles to go and forgive sins. If Jesus really wanted us to confess to God alone, then why in the world did He tell the Apostles to go hear and forgive sins also? Logically, Jesus wanted us to confess to one another, especially the ordained (as the Apostles became bishops at Pentecost).

So here's the full story: Scripture may indeed talk about going directly to Jesus for forgiveness (though I can't recall any verse or passage that states this), but so too does Scripture talk about going to the ordained for absolution (which is different from forgiveness, mind you).

Philthy · #57 Jan 16, '12, 1:00 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Savior2012

Do we need a mediator to have our sins forgiven or can we pray ask God directly for forgiveness,..... I am not convinced either way and trying to iron that one out.

God is not bound BY the sacraments, but He is bound TO them. What does this mean?
In the context of this thread, it means that God can certainly forgive any sin he chooses - whether the person has received sacramental absolution or not...he is not bound BY the sacrament as a requirement for Him to forgive us. God is, however, bound TO forgive us if we approach Him in the sacrament of Reconciliation for He has promised this and He does not lie. "Those whose sins you forgive are forgiven them...." John 20
So, what's the difference? One difference is that we can have a definitive sense of knowing that we have been forgiven when we partake in the Sacrament; and we can truly move on to our new life in Christ assured of that fact.

Philthy · #58 Jan 16, '12, 1:01 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by topdesk

The bible is the spirit breathed word of God.

This claim is an oral tradition!

Philthy · #59 Jan 16, '12, 1:10 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by parable1

So then explain to me then this. If as a catholic I only go to my Savior to confess my sins I am not fully forgiven because I have to go thru a mediator here on earth to gain acess to Him?

Not at all. You simply won't know - unless you receive a private revelation from God - that you have been forgiven in the same way that you can know when you receive absolution from someone who received the authority to do so (by the laying on of hands in Apostolic succession) from those who received it directly from Christ (John 20:23"Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.” .").
Christ explicitly gave the authority to forgive sins to the Apostles and they passed it on through the laying on of hands...

Philthy · #60 Jan 16, '12, 1:13 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Savior2012

Half the story;

Biblically Christ says we can have our sins forgiven directly through Him numerous times in scripture, In tradition your are correct we need a Priest.

Please share the verses that say "we" can have our sins forgiven "directly through Him". Not denying that they are there, I'm just drawing a blank and I'm pretty familiar with the NT