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  #1  
Old Feb 3, '12, 6:14 pm
Samuel Monosov Samuel Monosov is offline
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Default Why not gay marriage?

Alright, the contraception question I asked you answered. That made some sense, so I can imagine why you don't like gay activity or why you don't do gay marriage.

But what about people who aren't Catholic? They get divorced and do all kinds of other things that you don't agree with. Why can't two men get together and the state can call it marriage or whatever else they like? They do this sort of thing anyway about divorce, with a lot less arguments and protests from you guys.

Why should you care if other religions want to recognize gay marriage?

What about gay adoption? Why not allow it for limited cases, to see what effect it has, and if its a good idea overall, or not?
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  #2  
Old Feb 3, '12, 6:48 pm
St Francis St Francis is online now
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Default Re: Why not gay marriage?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel Monosov View Post
Alright, the contraception question I asked you answered. That made some sense, so I can imagine why you don't like gay activity or why you don't do gay marriage.

But what about people who aren't Catholic? They get divorced and do all kinds of other things that you don't agree with. Why can't two men get together and the state can call it marriage or whatever else they like? They do this sort of thing anyway about divorce, with a lot less arguments and protests from you guys.
True. And I think that one of the reasons that so many people are quite agitated about many different issues in our society today is that back when the changes were made, we didn't protest or protest enough, thinking that one small change would not matter, or that what people did on the provacy of their own homes wouldn't have much of an effect on society, etc.

Quote:
Why should you care if other religions want to recognize gay marriage?
Back whrn birth control was starting to become acceptable and legal ( no Christian denomination thought it was all right til 1930 when the Episcopalians caved, and there were various legal restrictions for decades after that), the Catholic Church protested somewhat, but mostly a lot of theologians thought the Pill might be moral and by the time that was investigated and decided, a lot of Catholocs had already been told that they could use it. It was the 60s....

But when it was decided, it was through a statement by the Pope called Humanae Vitae. He predicted that no good would come to society if birth control were widely used: that families would break up and abortion become common. He really hit the nail on the head!

When society separates sex from children, things go horribly awry. When there is no natural consequence of having sex outside of marriage, when sex becomes "safe" from having children, well, there's little risk to premarital sex, to extramarital sex, and families are unformed or broken.

Before the advent of fairly reliable birth control, marriage was not a bigger form of going steady accomapnied by a big party; marriage was the creation of a new family, the building block of society and the producer of society's children.

For *those* reasons, the law protected marriage and gave married people certain helps. There was family health insurance *because* children, the future of society, were involved--maybe only in a theoretical way, but that was what marriage was about. There were tax breaks *because* the married couple was making sacrifices benefical to society.

So the issue of homosexual "marriage" is spurious, aside from being unable truly to exist as a social institution since no children can result. Marriage is not about celebrating two people's love. The government doesn't give tax breaks because two people have decided to "make a commitment" only to each other.

Marriage is for bearing and raising children, but it has become terribly twisted in our contracepting society. So homosexual "marriage" is like a mockery of true marriage, devaluing it even further than we already have.

Quote:
What about gay adoption? Why not allow it for limited cases, to see what effect it has, and if its a good idea overall, or not?
It is a bad idea to start making life-changing experents with children and see how they turn out, don't you think? Adoption is for the benefit of the child involved, not the adults, and the government is supposed to protect the children, not put them into the position of guinea pigs, so we can see what happens and then change it back if it turns out to be a bad idea, because if it is a bad idea, then we'd know because of the harm to the vulnerable children we placed in that situation.
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  #3  
Old Feb 3, '12, 7:06 pm
Samuel Monosov Samuel Monosov is offline
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Default Re: Why not gay marriage?

Quote:
Originally Posted by St Francis View Post
True. And I think that one of the reasons that so many people are quite agitated about many different issues in our society today is that back when the changes were made, we didn't protest or protest enough, thinking that one small change would not matter, or that what people did on the provacy of their own homes wouldn't have much of an effect on society, etc.
Cool. Makes sense.

Quote:
Back when birth control was starting to become acceptable and legal ( no Christian denomination thought it was all right til 1930 when the Episcopalians caved, and there were various legal restrictions for decades after that)...
Do you think birth control should be illegal again?

Quote:
But when it was decided, it was through a statement by the Pope called Humanae Vitae. He predicted that no good would come to society if birth control were widely used: that families would break up and abortion become common. He really hit the nail on the head!
How do you know the problem is contraception, and not the Beatles and Barbie Dolls (invented in 1959)?

Quote:
Before the advent of fairly reliable birth control, marriage was not a bigger form of going steady accomapnied by a big party; marriage was the creation of a new family, the building block of society and the producer of society's children.
Why can't two men or two women make this kind of commitment and start a family?

Quote:
So the issue of homosexual "marriage" is spurious, aside from being unable truly to exist as a social institution since no children can result. Marriage is not about celebrating two people's love. The government doesn't give tax breaks because two people have decided to "make a commitment" only to each other.
Maybe the government shouldn't give tax-breaks to people who are married. Maybe the number of children should be the sole determinant.

Quote:
It is a bad idea to start making life-changing experiments with children and see how they turn out, don't you think?
I think that's what parenting is. Experimentation with serious risks.

Choosing any set of criteria for adopting children, or changing it in any way, involves serious risk.

Currently, there is no empirical reason to think that adoption to responsible gay couples would be any worse than adoption to responsible straight couples. Currently there is, in many places, adoption to responsible gay couples. We can learn from the results.

If the results show no measurable difference between gay and straight parents, by what basis would you argue that a secular government should disallow gay adoption?

If the results show that gay couples are worse parents than straight couples, then we should admit that it was a mistake to open up the option, and discontinue adopting to gays.
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  #4  
Old Feb 3, '12, 7:09 pm
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DexUK DexUK is offline
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Default Re: Why not gay marriage?

'StFrancis' makes good points.

I would say I can see the argument, or at least parts thereof.

Leaving aside the rights and wrongs of sexual activity between same-gender partners, I don't have a particular problem with two same-gender persons committing themselves to a legally recognised 'monogamous' relationship in that it doesn't actually harm me in any way. Likewise, it is not harmful to me, or my family, if such a couple were to be allowed certain legal rights in respect of their partner - ie. in the case of hospitalisation, guaranteed visitation if gravely ill, automatic inheritance rights (rather than having to specifically codify them in a will, which of course anyone can do at any time), automatic tenancy inheritance, joint insurance cover, etc. It would codify in law that which two parties can pretty much do already, but more simply.

I do not like the description of such a civil arrangement as being a 'marriage' though. Quite rightly a marriage is the joining together of affectively AND sexually complementary parties for the purpose of creating a family. Two same-gender persons in a partnership do not create a family unit in the way opposite-gender couples do (at least potentially). They simply create a social unit. Give it a name if you must, but don't call it 'marriage' since that is a concept that is fundamentally un-co-optable.
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  #5  
Old Feb 3, '12, 7:11 pm
Samuel Monosov Samuel Monosov is offline
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Default Re: Why not gay marriage?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DexUK View Post
I do not like the description of such a civil arrangement as being a 'marriage' though. Quite rightly a marriage is the joining together of affectively AND sexually complementary parties for the purpose of creating a family. Two same-gender persons in a partnership do not create a family unit. They simply create a social unit. Give it a name if you must, but don't call it 'marriage' since that is a concept that is fundamentally un-co-optable.
Your position makes good sense.

What would be your response if a different religion wanted to incorporate gay marriage?

Do you think a secular government should even use the word marriage?

What do you think about adoption by gay couples?
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  #6  
Old Feb 3, '12, 7:21 pm
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DexUK DexUK is offline
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Default Re: Why not gay marriage?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel Monosov View Post
Your position makes good sense.

What would be your response if a different religion wanted to incorporate gay marriage?

Do you think a secular government should even use the word marriage?

What do you think about adoption by gay couples?
Apologies, I made a mild edit to my post as you were also quoting it. I don't think it makes much of a difference to your point though.

In answer to your question, if other religions approve gay 'marriage', then they're playing games with a word that isn't designed for the purpose they're then giving it.

Likewise, government should follow the same rule.

If we could guarantee that government approved same-gender partnerships would be dealt with in such a way as not to impinge on or confuse understanding about what *marriage* is, then perhaps there wouldn't be such a debate. But the problem is that 'progressives' in government frequently seem to approach these sorts of questions in a partisan manner and from the point of view that 'all religions are wrong, therefore we must do this because it will help dismantle religion'. Because the motives are either all or partially wrong, it makes it very difficult for the Church to take a relaxed approach to such movements towards state-sanction 'marriage' between same-gender partners.

As for adoption, I can sympathise with the desires of homosexuals to love and nurture a child. I don't think that the instinct for doing that is necessarily linked only to heterosexuals. But a homosexual person must recognise that men and women do nurture their children differently. This is surely incontrovertible... while there are many one-parent families who do ok, there are also very many whose children when grown up bemoan the lack of the missing parent. It's not that they simply wanted two of them. It's that they wanted the role the missing one represented, which means that a homosexual partnership is permanently lacking one role and therefore can't represent the balanced upbringing that a child needs, no matter how dedicated and loving and, indeed, wonderful such people might be in many other ways.
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May he turn his countenance towards you
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  #7  
Old Feb 3, '12, 7:37 pm
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vsedriver vsedriver is offline
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Default Re: Why not gay marriage?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DexUK View Post
This is surely incontrovertible... while there are many one-parent families who do ok, there are also very many whose children when grown up bemoan the lack of the missing parent. It's not that they simply wanted two of them. It's that they wanted the role the missing one represented, which means that a homosexual partnership is permanently lacking one role and therefore can't represent the balanced upbringing that a child needs, no matter how dedicated and loving and, indeed, wonderful such people might be in many other ways.
Ah but they are working on this already. All they have to do is devalue motherhood and fatherhood. Can you say this isn't happening now? Society already encourages women to go right back to work after having a child. She's replaceable with a nanny or a good day care. Father's aren't important, look at the male role models today. Multiple kids with multiple women. After all, it doesn't take a mother and a father to raise a child, any qualified care giver is just as good.
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  #8  
Old Feb 3, '12, 7:40 pm
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Default Re: Why not gay marriage?

if you treat civil unions the same way you treat marriage then marriage ceases to exist in secular society.

As soon as my state approves gay marriage, I'm marrying my mom. After all, we are two consenting same sex adults who are not legally 'married' to anyone else. It will be a great way to care for her and I will be able to cut my siblings out of their inheritance.
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  #9  
Old Feb 3, '12, 7:49 pm
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Samuel63 Samuel63 is offline
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Default Re: Why not gay marriage?

Here are two reasons. First, gay activity resulted in a horrific punishment in the Old Testament law that was inspired by God. There is no indication that God has changed His mind on this point.

Second, support of gay lifestyles in society through general public acceptance and legal rulings does not promote the common good. In fact, no procreation is achieved and a lot of disease is spread. This is like two steps backward.
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  #10  
Old Feb 3, '12, 7:59 pm
Samuel Monosov Samuel Monosov is offline
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Default Re: Why not gay marriage?

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Originally Posted by Samuel63 View Post
Here are two reasons. First, gay activity resulted in a horrific punishment in the Old Testament law that was inspired by God. There is no indication that God has changed His mind on this point.
Why do you think a secular government should take this reason seriously?

Do you think this should be a good reason for our government?

Quote:
Second, support of gay lifestyles in society through general public acceptance and legal rulings does not promote the common good. In fact, no procreation is achieved and a lot of disease is spread. This is like two steps backward.
Do you think that spread of disease should determine the ethics of a particular act?

If AIDS is cured, and if other diseases are neutralized, will this mean that the gay lifestyle is only one step back instead of two?

The procreation reason makes sense to me. I understand that is a good reason for Catholics to think gay marriage is unacceptable.

Should everything Catholics think is unacceptable be legislated? Should we make it illegal to miss Mass on Sundays?

Why should the government not allow gay civil unions, given that the government is not Catholic?
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  #11  
Old Feb 3, '12, 8:04 pm
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Samuel63 Samuel63 is offline
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Default Re: Why not gay marriage?

Your approach is to transform secular government to accept your position. I am suggesting we should look not to ourselves for what is right and wrong but to our creator. This is how society is nurtured and flourishes.
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  #12  
Old Feb 3, '12, 8:09 pm
Samuel Monosov Samuel Monosov is offline
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Default Re: Why not gay marriage?

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Originally Posted by Samuel63 View Post
Your approach is to transform secular government to accept your position. I am suggesting we should look not to ourselves for what is right and wrong but to our creator. This is how society is nurtured and flourishes.
I am not sure that there is a creator. We can talk about this further in a different thread.

Do you think it is acceptable for a government to base their political decisions on their beliefs about a creator?
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  #13  
Old Feb 3, '12, 8:11 pm
Corpus Cristi Corpus Cristi is offline
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Default Re: Why not gay marriage?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel63 View Post
Second, support of gay lifestylesin society through general public acceptance and legal rulings does not promote the common good. In fact, no procreation is achieved and a lot of disease is spread. This is like two steps backward.
Wow. Speaking of two steps backward, how about a couple dozen steps into a different topic? Not to sound rude, but I invite you to reread the previous comments on this thread (which I was enjoying, by the way). I don't think that a topic involving homosexuals in monogomous relationships leaves much room for "a lot of disease" being spread unless, of course, what you mean by "gay lifestyles" has nothing to do with monogomy. Let's stay on topic, please. Thanks.

God bless,

Rob
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  #14  
Old Feb 3, '12, 8:23 pm
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Journey322 Journey322 is offline
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Default Re: Why not gay marriage?

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Originally Posted by vsedriver View Post
if you treat civil unions the same way you treat marriage then marriage ceases to exist in secular society.

As soon as my state approves gay marriage, I'm marrying my mom. After all, we are two consenting same sex adults who are not legally 'married' to anyone else. It will be a great way to care for her and I will be able to cut my siblings out of their inheritance.
Ew!
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  #15  
Old Feb 3, '12, 8:24 pm
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Samuel63 Samuel63 is offline
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Default Re: Why not gay marriage?

Monogamous gay relationship? What data and sources can you cite that indicate a majority of gay couples have remained monogamous for their entire life?
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