What's your stance on Israel?

[chosen people]

The Roman Emperor changed the name of Judea to Palestine in 135 c.e. in order to punish the Jews for their uprisings against Rome.

If you are so sure that " Palestine" , the country, goes back through most of recorded history," I expect you to be able to answer a few basic questions about that country of Palestine :


1. When was it founded and by whom?


2. What were its borders?


3. What was its capital?


4. What were its major cities?


5. What constituted the basis of its economy?


6. What was its form of government?


7. Can you name at least one Palestinian leader before Arafat?


8. Was Palestine ever recognized by a country whose existence, at that time or now, leaves no room for interpretation?


9. What was the language of the country of Palestine ?


10. What was the prevalent religion of the country of Palestine ?


11. What was the name of its currency? Choose any date in history and tell what was the approximate exchange rate of the Palestinian monetary unit against the US dollar, German mark, GB pound, Japanese yen, or Chinese yuan on that date.


12. And, finally, since there is no such country today, what caused its demise and when did it occur?

[cjmclark]

Here's another question: Does not having a recognized national government, economy, capital, currency, et c. justify the forced relocation of people (a topic with which the Jewish people should be tragically all too familiar) from the homes where they've lived for hundreds of years?

And JBH, as for all your talk about the "mohammedan enemy" and the "mohammedan scourge" and "liars through and through" and so forth, that's tin foil-hat alarmism at best and bigotry at worst. It's disappointing to see the dehumanization of an entire group of people, and it to me indicates a lack of respect for basic human dignity.

[Tsuwano]

I don't believe that support of Israel and Palestine must be mutually exclusive. In fact, I believe that the security of Israel would be more enhanced if there was an independent Palestinian State within viable and well defined borders. By working against the foundation of Palestine, I think Israel places itself in greater danger than need be and tarnishes her reputation as a free and democratic nation. I also believe that the leadership of the Palestinian people actually work against the establishment of a Palestinian State. I don't know if this is done purposefully, but it often seems to be in their political interests that a Palestinian State not be established.

[jonbhorton]

Originally Posted by cjmclark

Here's another question: Does not having a recognized national government, economy, capital, currency, et c. justify the forced relocation of people (a topic with which the Jewish people should be tragically all too familiar) from the homes where they've lived for hundreds of years?

And JBH, as for all your talk about the "mohammedan enemy" and the "mohammedan scourge" and "liars through and through" and so forth, that's tin foil-hat alarmism at best and bigotry at worst. It's disappointing to see the dehumanization of an entire group of people, and it to me indicates a lack of respect for basic human dignity.

Uhhh, no. It's after 8 exhaustive years of studying the culture and "religion" that I arrive at the conclusion, having vacillated myself into once looking at it from "their" side too intently that I embarked on a journey of all but explicitly rejecting every Christian value I had. It was upon the realization of this, and the knowledge I gleaned as a result, that I came to a place where I also understood the conservative political viewpoint I had previously eschewed. I was finally able to connect the dots and found a link in both.

Further study on this revealed the following:

Scripture would indicate that indeed mohammed brought another "gospel" and thus, is a type of anti-Christ and thus- no heaven but for the ignorant. Don't get me wrong, I'd LOVE if everyone went to Heaven, even mohammed. Jesus died for his sins too. I just can't see it given everything. His existence in Heaven would only mean one of two things: the mercy of God is unfathomable and He has reserved a moment between here and there for a final chance, or, I better start praying to Mecca. The first of which is entirely presumptuous as a matter of doctrine and not pure hope, unless expressly given. Does the understanding of particular judgement delve into this at some deeper level? The latter is the only option given what is faced, were mohammedanism true. It is in fact a vicious lie. We are in its cross-hairs. Israel is, in many ways, staving off the West being absolutely subjected to the economic power of Arab cabal. It is decisive ground. It cannot be let go, or we are next. The West is unconquered by mohammedanism in all but propaganda swallowing.

The only feasible position in defense of so-called Palestine is to not tick off the jihadists and affect a slaughter of the Christians who are surrounded. If that's your gig, fine. It's very politically-correct, and globally-minded.

Such posts as these are why I am so adamant in my fight against mohammedanism, and the modernist-phrasing in language which leaves open a flood gate of interpretive ability. Unfortunately, such occurrences often mesh well with, and are co-opted by, mohammedan doctrine and propaganda in their efforts.

Population numbers show how little the local mohammedan population cared about Jerusalem until it became a source of that old fun muzzie past time: hating the Jews and Christians. Their scripture demands it. It demands we convert or pay submission tax, and if we refuse, we die. Jew and Christian alike suffer the same choice and fate under mohammedan conquering.

FWIW, mohammedan is more correct that "muslim", for mohammed is who they follow and get everything from, and he supplants the human role of Christ in the grand scheme of things. Muslim merely engages in tacit affirmation of their claim(s).

[cjmclark]

Originally Posted by jonbhorton

Uhhh, no. It's after 8 exhaustive years of studying the culture and "religion" that I arrive at the conclusion, having vacillated myself into once looking at it from "their" side too intently that I embarked on a journey of all but explicitly rejecting every Christian value I had. It was upon the realization of this, and the knowledge I gleaned as a result, that I came to a place where I also understood the conservative political viewpoint I had previously eschewed. I was finally able to connect the dots and found a link in both.

Further study on this revealed the following:

Scripture would indicate that indeed mohammed brought another "gospel" and thus, is a type of anti-Christ and thus- no heaven but for the ignorant. Don't get me wrong, I'd LOVE if everyone went to Heaven, even mohammed. Jesus died for his sins too. I just can't see it given everything. His existence in Heaven would only mean one of two things: the mercy of God is unfathomable and He has reserved a moment between here and there for a final chance, or, I better start praying to Mecca. The first of which is entirely presumptuous as a matter of doctrine and not pure hope, unless expressly given. Does the understanding of particular judgement delve into this at some deeper level? The latter is the only option given what is faced, were mohammedanism true. It is in fact a vicious lie. We are in its cross-hairs. Israel is, in many ways, staving off the West being absolutely subjected to the economic power of Arab cabal. It is decisive ground. It cannot be let go, or we are next. The West is unconquered by mohammedanism in all but propaganda swallowing.

The only feasible position in defense of so-called Palestine is to not tick off the jihadists and affect a slaughter of the Christians who are surrounded. If that's your gig, fine. It's very politically-correct, and globally-minded.

Such posts as these are why I am so adamant in my fight against mohammedanism, and the modernist-phrasing in language which leaves open a flood gate of interpretive ability. Unfortunately, such occurrences often mesh well with, and are co-opted by, mohammedan doctrine and propaganda in their efforts.

Population numbers show how little the local mohammedan population cared about Jerusalem until it became a source of that old fun muzzie past time: hating the Jews and Christians. Their scripture demands it. It demands we convert or pay submission tax, and if we refuse, we die. Jew and Christian alike suffer the same choice and fate under mohammedan conquering.

FWIW, mohammedan is more correct that "muslim", for mohammed is who they follow and get everything from, and he supplants the human role of Christ in the grand scheme of things. Muslim merely engages in tacit affirmation of their claim(s).

I'm glad you've found the answers you need. I will pray for you.

[jonbhorton]

Originally Posted by cjmclark

I'm glad you've found the answers you need. I will pray for you.

Thank you , I'll let the sarcasm merely pass by. *hat tip*

While you're at it, please pray for the mohammedan global community, for they are at somewhere around 1.5Billion and growing. That's a lot of souls. May they convert lest they kill us all.

[Roy5]

There is plenty of blame to go around. I favor a pro-Israel and pro-Palestinian policy. The problem is that for decades our policy has been only pro-Israel, and this has been at the root of many of our problems in and from the Middle East, including 9-11.

There is much history here, which time and space doesn't permit covering. The initial US mistake is that Palestinians forced out of their homes in 1948 should have been generously compensated for their property, Instead, the Palestinians were treated like dirt then and since then. I am a senior and was strongly pro-Israel until my mind was opened in 1956 when Israel, together with Britain and France, attacked Egypt. Then I began to read both sides and realized that there are two sides.

My suggestion is that everyone read [i]The Israel Lobby and US Foreign Policy.[/I] This work was done by two nonpartisan professors and gives a superb picture of the past 60+ years.

Among the many problems I have is this: why does Israel keep grabbing land and building settlements on what little is left of Palestinian territory?! The US and the rest of the world has opposed this, but it goes on and on. It makes Israel appear to be the aggressor, inflexible, determined to occupy every inch of the West Bank. Meanwhile, we give $4 billion and more every year to the Israelis while they thumb their noses at our interests.

Unfortunately, three of the four GOP candidates are ready to cave in totally to Israeli demands. I have a problem with Ron Paul on various issues, but on this one issue he is right. He knows that political pressures keep the Administration and Congress captive of Israel. Look at the $10 million for the Gingrich campaign. From Adelson profits from casinos, given to Gingrich because of Newt's extreme position on the Palestinians. The media all bend toward Israel. Buchanan called Congress 'Israeli occupied territory'. It runs both parties.

I am not an Obama fan, but I will probably have to vote for him because I believe he is at least a moderate on this issue, that he really wants to resolve the issue justly and peacefully, that he is a good friend of Israel because Israel needs peace and it will not happen until the Palestinians have some justice. Romney, Gingrich and Santorum all sound ready to get us in yet another war - this one with Iran - to waste thousands of innocent American and Iranian lives and run up 2-3 more trillion in debt. Enough of war! Remember the warning of that great president, Dwight Eisenhower, of the military-industrial complex that profits off war, the killing of our fine young people plus deeper and deeper debt.

As for Gaza, Hamas initially was supported by Israel as a antidote to Arafat. Israel left Gaza because it was too costly to govern over a million restless Arabs. Israeli policy for years has been a principal cause of Muslim terrorism.

What kind of democracy occupies land for so many decades, refuses to allow inhabitants in those areas the right to vote, keeps building roads in them for Jews only, continuously violates international law, and - by the way - strictly forbid Christian evangelism?

True friends won't let drunk driver drive. True friends of Israel will insist that it make a just peace with the Palestinians. Until then conflict will persist, terrorism will be a continuing danger, and America will be widely regarded as hypocritical for insisting on democracy while supporting an Israeli government that doesn't practice it.

God bless Israel, the Palestinians, and all of his children of every creed, color, culture and country. Let us permit Christ and Christianity to have some influence on our foreign policy!

[cjmclark]

Originally Posted by jonbhorton

Thank you , I'll let the sarcasm merely pass by. *hat tip*

While you're at it, please pray for the mohammedan global community, for they are at somewhere around 1.5Billion and growing. That's a lot of souls. May they convert lest they kill us all.

The point is that you seem to think that "8 exhaustive years of studying the culture and 'religion'" legitimizes a point of view that is - in my opinion - appalling, and also completely out of line with Church teaching regarding those who accept our God as Creator. I have no problem with people expressing their opinions, but you seem to think that your "exhaustive" personal study makes your opinion the "truth" and somehow more valid than Church proclamations (namely, Lumen Gentium and Nostra Aetate).

I will pray for the conversion of their souls and your heart.

[Geist]

Originally Posted by Tsuwano

I don't believe that support of Israel and Palestine must be mutually exclusive. In fact, I believe that the security of Israel would be more enhanced if there was an independent Palestinian State within viable and well defined borders. By working against the foundation of Palestine, I think Israel places itself in greater danger than need be and tarnishes her reputation as a free and democratic nation. I also believe that the leadership of the Palestinian people actually work against the establishment of a Palestinian State. I don't know if this is done purposefully, but it often seems to be in their political interests that a Palestinian State not be established.

You know, I thought this myself before, not just the state, but if Israel were to provide help in developing a Palestinian economy and infrastructure, perhaps they wouldn't be so angry? Poverty and boredom are good grounds for growing militarism, prosperity, economic choices, and education will prevent it from gaining hold.

Given how much Israel has pent on defense these lsat decades, I'm sure it would have cost alot less to help build up their infrastructure decades ago.

[jonbhorton]

Originally Posted by cjmclark

The point is that you seem to think that "8 exhaustive years of studying the culture and 'religion'" legitimizes a point of view that is - in my opinion - appalling, and also completely out of line with Church teaching regarding those who accept our God as Creator. I have no problem with people expressing their opinions, but you seem to think that your "exhaustive" personal study makes your opinion the "truth" and somehow more valid than Church proclamations (namely, Lumen Gentium and Nostra Aetate).

I will pray for the conversion of their souls and your heart.

And a careful reading of the two documents, as well as understanding certain realities which those documents make no mention of, result in my understanding of mohammedanism and mohammedan adherents.

Don't get it twisted. I don't hate mohammedan adherents. I do, however, recognize how evil the system in which they're trying to attain salvation is, as well as the fact that despite all "la la la la la la!" protestations to the contrary, I am not misrepresenting mohammedanism and its historical or modern goals- eradication of paganism, Christianity, and Judaism via the following methods:

Pagans- convert or die. That is the only choice. If they're not Christian or Jewish, they have to convert, or die. That's koranic and in line with hadith.

Christians- convert or pay jizya tax to live as a dhimmi, or die if you refuse either; eventually convert or die.

Jews- same as Christians.

Systemically, mohammedanism is practically a checklist for persecution against the Church. Historically, this is the case. Modernly, this is the case.

That you somehow segue a voiced reality into me disagreeing with the Church is erroneous. I don't disagree with the Church, I agree with the Church and expound on that which the Church can't lest the Church ring the bell of mohammedan persecution on all Christians world-wide.

The Church is playing this situation with a globally-minded slant, for to do otherwise would bring on outright persecution globally. It's very similar in my opinion to the seeming "silence" of Pope Pius XII.

Boko Haram is mohammedanism, Al-qaeda is mohammedanism, any jihadist is mohammedanism. Your friendly co-worker who has never spent a day in the Middle East and happens to be mohammedan, is not mohammedanism at its core nor in its most liberal application of koran and hadith.

The bad mohammedan adherent is friendly and peaceful; the good adherent is violent and would do all manner of unspeakable things to you, me, and us if/when they have the chance.

Or you could just keep believing their propaganda.

[cjmclark]

Originally Posted by jonbhorton

And a careful reading of the two documents, as well as understanding certain realities which those documents make no mention of, result in my understanding of mohammedanism and mohammedan adherents.

Don't get it twisted. I don't hate mohammedan adherents. I do, however, recognize how evil the system in which they're trying to attain salvation is, as well as the fact that despite all "la la la la la la!" protestations to the contrary, I am not misrepresenting mohammedanism and its historical or modern goals- eradication of paganism, Christianity, and Judaism via the following methods:

Pagans- convert or die. That is the only choice. If they're not Christian or Jewish, they have to convert, or die. That's koranic and in line with hadith.

Christians- convert or pay jizya tax to live as a dhimmi, or die if you refuse either; eventually convert or die.

Jews- same as Christians.

Systemically, mohammedanism is practically a checklist for persecution against the Church. Historically, this is the case. Modernly, this is the case.

That you somehow segue a voiced reality into me disagreeing with the Church is erroneous. I don't disagree with the Church, I agree with the Church and expound on that which the Church can't lest the Church ring the bell of mohammedan persecution on all Christians world-wide.

The Church is playing this situation with a globally-minded slant, for to do otherwise would bring on outright persecution globally. It's very similar in my opinion to the seeming "silence" of Pope Pius XII.

Boko Haram is mohammedanism, Al-qaeda is mohammedanism, any jihadist is mohammedanism. Your friendly co-worker who has never spent a day in the Middle East and happens to be mohammedan, is not mohammedanism at its core nor in its most liberal application of koran and hadith.

The bad mohammedan adherent is friendly and peaceful; the good adherent is violent and would do all manner of unspeakable things to you, me, and us if/when they have the chance.

Or you could just keep believing their propaganda.

I don't have an issue with your understanding of the tenets of orthodox Islam, so to speak...that's what you've gained through your extensive study and that's fine. And I accept that you claim not to hate its adherents. My issue is that your language encourages hate and fear in others by making such sweeping generalizations. It creates a negative emotional wake. I also find the notion that you seem to see yourself as a crusader, voicing the truth that the "Church dare not," to be...interesting, to say the least.

Let's say the unthinkable happened. Let's say that bulwark that is Israel crumbled, the blood-dimmed tide was loosed and the "mohammedan scourge" covered all the land with a second darkness.

So what?

We as Catholics are called to understand that we will suffer before the end. There are many of our brothers and sisters who suffer right now, at the hands of tribal warlords and unsympathetic governments, at the hands of crippling poverty and famine, at the hands of Muslims and yes, of Israel. Our end will come one way or the other. It may be because of the "mohammedan scourge"...or it may be because of our religious beliefs being slowly and painfully eroded by a morally relativistic culture and government. It may be because of North Korean nukes or Chinese bullets, or engineered bio-weapons gone out of control. It may be because of a giant meteor, solar flares, earthquakes or hurricanes. Or we may be fortunate enough to die in our beds, surrounded by our family, before any of that happens.

So in light of all of that, is stirring up an anti-Muslim fervor really that productive?

I'm sorry, but your apocalyptic notions don't resonate with me. Then again, I'm easy to dismiss, since I've clearly been muzzled by "their propaganda."

[jonbhorton]

Originally Posted by cjmclark

I don't have an issue with your understanding of the tenets of orthodox Islam, so to speak...that's what you've gained through your extensive study and that's fine. And I accept that you claim not to hate its adherents. My issue is that your language encourages hate and fear in others by making such sweeping generalizations. It creates a negative emotional wake. I also find the notion that you seem to see yourself as a crusader, voicing the truth that the "Church dare not," to be...interesting, to say the least.

Let's say the unthinkable happened. Let's say that bulwark that is Israel crumbled, the blood-dimmed tide was loosed and the "mohammedan scourge" covered all the land with a second darkness.

So what?

We as Catholics are called to understand that we will suffer before the end. There are many of our brothers and sisters who suffer right now, at the hands of tribal warlords and unsympathetic governments, at the hands of crippling poverty and famine, at the hands of Muslims and yes, of Israel. Our end will come one way or the other. It may be because of the "mohammedan scourge"...or it may be because of our religious beliefs being slowly and painfully eroded by a morally relativistic culture and government. It may be because of North Korean nukes or Chinese bullets, or engineered bio-weapons gone out of control. It may be because of a giant meteor, solar flares, earthquakes or hurricanes. Or we may be fortunate enough to die in our beds, surrounded by our family, before any of that happens.

So in light of all of that, is stirring up an anti-Muslim fervor really that productive?

I'm sorry, but your apocalyptic notions don't resonate with me. Then again, I'm easy to dismiss, since I've clearly been muzzled by "their propaganda."

I see lies being spread about mohammedanism to a degree where Christians are falling to their carefully laid traps. Dude, this ain't some small deal. It is the fastest growing religion in the world. Here in the West its relatively miniscule and only holds sway due to the oil, and the propaganda machine CAIR (who, by the way, are named as co-conspirators in the Holy Land charity scam where they were funneling money to terrorists in "Palestine").

Yeah, I could die tomorrow by slipping on ice on the outside stairs. Yeah, I might die in a car wreck on the way to Mass or some random errand. Yeah, I might have one of these people come to my residence (the address of which is attached to my name and available openly online) and chop my head off. Yeah, I might die in old age, a peaceful death. Given the nature of the world today, I cannot foresee the last. There are some very big wars about to take place. Assad will likely not go peacefully. Iran is the HQ of two of the most insane men on this planet, both of which are convinced they have met the Mahdi, and they will affect a global jihad against Israel and the US very soon (how soon TBD). The same guys play into the situation with HAMAS, the Muslim Brotherhood, Hezbollah, multiple rogue nations' nuclear programs, etc. All of these entities have propaganda wings, training camps, etc right here in the USA. They often lend help, support, and funds to organizations which can destabilize America, some of whom have that expressed goal.

What's worse is both Russia and China are fairly staunch on whose side they remain: Iran and Syria. This is a bad, bad thing.

Per the conservative demographic numbers, the population in the US subtends to around 50k mohammedan subscribers per state. Obviously this varies state to state, but the point being: you can shut down a city with a few thousand; a state? 50k would do quite well.

Just like many Christians will wake up whenever that generation experiences/see the signs of the times, and many will lead saccharine lives until then, the same with the average, peaceful, mohammedan neighbor, co-worker, etc.

If Israel goes, it all goes. Hate the Jews all ya want, if that's the underlying theme (and I direct that to no one but whomever fits the bill). Hate the history of modern Israel all ya want. But the tactical reality remains: If Israel goes, it all goes.

Once they succeed in that, they will stop at nothing.

Per the "crusader" comment, just like the Catholic Church was seen as largely "silent", I recognize that the silence was to not bring on the full wrath of Nazi Germany. In that regard they were able to work through other channels. It also is true that many laity and clergy were not necessarily silent, nor inactive in seeking to thwart the Nazi's plans.

I recognize the same brutality in mohammedanism that I recognize in Nazi Germany.

The Vatican can do whatever it pleases, but my conscience cannot see me silent on this issue.