Forgiving infractions

Cat · #1 Feb 10, '12, 7:06 pm

I hope it's OK to be honest in this "Suggestion Section" of the forum.

I wish that infractions had a "statute of limitations" and would be removed after a certain number of years, or maybe even months, if it seems obvious that the offender is trying hard to be good.

I was quite surprised recently to discover that infractions I occurred several years ago can still be recalled and held against me. I just assumed that after several years, these infractions had been erased and forgotten.

Somehow it doesn't seem Christian to me to hold long-past infractions against someone.

Christ forgives us for our sins and cannot remember our sins once we have repented and done penance. Shouldn't we forgive each other and FORGET once we have expressed regret, promised better behavior, and done our penance?

My husband and I have been married for almost 34 years. We have learned that one of the most hurtful things we can do is bring up offenses that were committed long ago.

We have never come anywhere near divorce, but I can testify that the hardest times in our marriage have been when, during a fight, one of us brought up a fault or failing that the other had back in our younger days. I'm not one to cry all night, but I know that I have literally cried all night when my husband spitefully tormented me with something that I had said when I was just a teenager dating him--I had forgotten all about it, but he had kept it in his mind and brooded over it and finally it came out, like a sword.

It took me a long, long time to trust my husband again after that.

And I have done the same to him, and lost his trust.

We are older now, and we know that it is extremely harmful and dangerous to bring up past faults. When we forgive each other for a wrong done, the forgiveness must be complete, and even though we are human and will probably remember forever, we should strive to forget the wrongs done against us by our spouse.

I realize that perhaps what is being done here on CAF is tracking our "pattern." But surely, I am not the only one who struggles for many years with the same besetting weaknesses. I wish I could just "be perfect" after one fall, but all too often, I'll go along and be doing really well, and then something will trigger the old problem again and I'll fall into the same trap that messed me up before. Or I'll just get careless and forget what got me in trouble before.

Yes, of course I have a "pattern." I think all of us do. We all have certain weak areas that we try to guard against, and sadly, most of us fail every now and then. To me, this is not the same as a continued "pattern" of wilful defiance and hard-hearted determination to keep on sinning regardless of warnings and punishments. To me, someone who is obviously trying hard not to commit an infraction should not be nailed because they fall once again into the same kind of error committed months or years ago.

Couldn't there be a system of "redemption," whereby an infraction could be erased forever once a certain number of edifying posts are made? Isn't that the way God does it?

I hope that these paragraphs will be pondered, and I hope that perhaps the CAF moderators will consider my words. Thank you.

Jaypeeto4 · #2 Feb 10, '12, 8:23 pm

It is true that on one level, God forgives our past sins.
But forgives and forgets them as if they never happened???
I seriously question this, because if THAT were literally so,
he would PREVENT repentant sinners from EVER having to spend time
in horrific, subhuman jails, etc., except for heinous repeat acts of rape or murder.
But he DOESN'T always prevent that, even when begged to as a mercy.
Why not? I honestly don't know.
Yet others, whose repented sins deserve death, never suffer any punishment in this life at all after they repent, not even financial troubles. strange.

And please remember, it is church teaching that on Judgement Day,
ALL OUR SINS, even the most secret and personal, ARE GOING TO BE PUBLICLY REVEALED TO EVERYONE WHO HAS EVER LIVED, and THEIR SINS, ***ALL*** of them, are going to be fully revealed to US. THAT is official teaching, and is a sickening thought. But we have to face it. Of course, we will see things in a different light on that day, but personally, I will be embarassed enough to die.

But as for "infractions" on CAF being held against you for years, this is outrageous.
I too think it should be changed. Some of these folks are behaving like sinless little dictators.

Havard · #3 Feb 10, '12, 8:42 pm

Wait, so how does it work now? I know there's a point system involved, and I assumed they did expire... a mod once accidentally gave me an infraction which he reversed upon learning his mistake. It says "Points / Expires" at the top, and underneath that, "5 / Reversed". What does it normally say, instead of "Reversed"?

Cat · #4 Feb 11, '12, 7:03 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Havard

Wait, so how does it work now? I know there's a point system involved, and I assumed they did expire... a mod once accidentally gave me an infraction which he reversed upon learning his mistake. It says "Points / Expires" at the top, and underneath that, "5 / Reversed". What does it normally say, instead of "Reversed"?

I would be interested in seeing this system, too. It's probably posted somewhere on CAF, and I just can't find it. I know that so many other people maneuver their way around computer forums like their own homes, but I admit to being very poor at this kind of thing. I am not on Facebook, Twitter, or any other social media because I can't figure out how to do it. I don't even text because I can't figure out how to do it.

But I know for a fact--and again, I trust that it's OK in this section of CAF to be honest and even critical of the moderators--that infractions that I committed years ago were held up against me as evidence of a "continuing pattern." I was so surprised and upset by this, and very hurt and yes, frightened. (Those of you who know my story know that my husband and I were ousted from our evangelical Protestant church due to the false accusations of a woman pastor.)

I assumed that after a reasonable period of time that our infractions would be expunged from the record and no longer remembered.

I know that in the world of computers, there is no such thing as "forever," and that somehow, what we have written can always be recalled by a computer professional . That's important in case of a criminal investigation, etc.

But for purposes of keeping the board moderated, I just can't see the moderators bringing up posts from several years ago. Perhaps the infractions have expired, but if the moderators can find the posts that prompted the infractions and use them to accuse the member of a "continuing pattern of infractions," then the expirations are in name only.

Like I said, this doesn't seem Christian to me.

I agree that if a poster demonstrates a hard-heartedness and an unwillingness to try to reign in personality traits that result in posts that break the rules, that's different. But if the poster, for the most part, posts edifying, interesting, and encouraging posts, and then, after hundreds of such good posts, writes a clinker--this is NOT a pattern. And it's not fair to bring up a post that was written months earlier, or years earlier, and say, "Pattern" and write a harsh warning and threats to a poster who has honestly been trying hard to obey the rules.

Again, I trust that it's acceptable to be honest in this section of the Board. I would never write these things in any other section of the Board. I could write PMs to the various moderators. But this is a suggestion section, and my suggestion is that there should be a Statute of Limitations on past infractions, and after a reasonable time, past infractions should be forgotten. I hope my arguments are persuasive.

Catholic90 · #5 Feb 11, '12, 7:25 am

I totally agree with you Cat.

**Dale_M** · #6 Feb 11, '12, 8:00 am

My understanding is that infraction points normally expire. This is from a 2006 thread:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Bay

For those who don't know, if you receive either an infractions or a warning, you will receive an email explaining what it is for.

Warnings carry no points, however infractions do. Warnings and infractions normally have a time limit associated with them, which shows up in your profile in a report that only you and the moderators see.

Infractions range in point value from 1 to 1000 depending on the severity. They can accumulate and you can find your account in a moderated or suspended mode until they expire.

The current point system (which may change without notice) is as follows:

Your posts are Moderated - 50 Points
Your account is suspended - 100 Points
Your account is banned - 500 Points

If your account is Moderated, your posts do not appear until a moderator approves them.

If your account is Suspended you do not have forum privileges until the points expire

Normally a banned account is permanent

https://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=117081 (post #5)

However, for chronic cases of bad behavior, infraction points can be made permanent

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Francis

Just FYI.

Infractions points can be made permanent by the issuing Moderator. Most are expiring and please be aware that you and the staff are the only ones who can see them. Permanent points are commonly done if the person is already thought to be on a collision course with the abyss.

https://forums.catholic.com/showthre...=117081&page=2 (post #23)

Granted, that thread is 5.5 years old, so policy might have changed. However (ahem) a few months ago I received an infraction and according to the information on my profile those points have expired.

I wonder if it is possible for permanent infraction points to be made temporary, if the member consistently shows good behavior for a couple years?

As for completely expunging the record of expired infractions... I dunno. Perhaps after a couple years it might be reasonable. However, I worry that someone who is unrepentant and unreformed would simply go away for a couple years and then begin their bad behavior all over again. So how could good behavior be credited to make up for past transgressions?

Havard · #7 Feb 11, '12, 9:24 am

It's curious that an infraction could be worth double the points of the gravest punishment.

As to point decay, the clock should only run if you make X number (>5, imho) of posts for any particular month. That way a poster can't just take off for a couple years, come back, and get up the same old shenanigans.

**Dale_M** · #8 Feb 11, '12, 9:33 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Havard

It's curious that an infraction could be worth double the points of the gravest punishment.

Yes, it sounds odd. I suppose (and this is just a guess) the higher points are to provide notice of the severity of the infraction. Banned persons are occasionally, if rarely, (I've seen two or three) allowed back. I suppose person with a 1000 point infraction would encounter greater difficulty in having their ban lifted.

Anathama Sit · #9 Feb 11, '12, 12:56 pm

So ummm where do I go to see if I have any points racked up? Does this appear on my profile page? Or what?

Havard · #10 Feb 11, '12, 1:11 pm

On your profile, it shows up as one of the tabs.

Public Message Wall, About Me, Statistics, Friends, Infractions, Contact Info.

Anathama Sit · #11 Feb 11, '12, 1:14 pm

Greetings Harvard,

Thanks be to God, I am missing that Tab. That's probably a Tab that I hope with the grace of God to NEVER EVER be in possession of.

I got worried there that maybe I had something on my record but could not see it.

The other question, so if you don't have an infactions tab then is it safe to bet that you have no points at all?

God Bless,
Anathama Sit

**Dale_M** · #12 Feb 11, '12, 1:26 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anathama Sit

I got worried there that maybe I had something on my record but could not see it.

The other question, so if you don't have an infactions tab then is it safe to bet that you have no points at all?

Yes, if you don't have the tab, then you have never been given any infractions. But don't worry.... you will get a private message from a moderator if he or she is handing you some points.

Anathama Sit · #13 Feb 11, '12, 1:36 pm

Greetings Dale-M,

That is a private message I hope with the grace of God to never ever get.

Greetings to those posting and or reading this thread,

I just wanted to say that if you are a group leader, you will be held to much higher standards than the rest of the forum. Should you get a warning, and then another violation, it is possible that you will lose your groups and even worse be banned from CAF.

I just got this from a Moderator and thought to pass this on.

God Bless,
Anathama Sit

Havard · #14 Feb 11, '12, 1:46 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anathama Sit

Greetings Harvard,

Thanks be to God, I am missing that Tab. That's probably a Tab that I hope with the grace of God to NEVER EVER be in possession of.

I got worried there that maybe I had something on my record but could not see it.

The other question, so if you don't have an infactions tab then is it safe to bet that you have no points at all?

God Bless,
Anathama Sit

No problem.

But it's Havard, as in Robert Emlyn Havard.

Oh, and having the tab doesn't mean you necessarily don't have a clean record. It can be the result of a mod's mistake, as with my case.

Anathama Sit · #15 Feb 11, '12, 3:17 pm

Greetings Havard,

Oh so sorry about mispelling the user name.

Ahh that second point is also good to know. In all of my dealings with the Moderators, they have been most kind and gracious so I am less afraid of them now.

Man when I first had to send a PM to one, I nearly quaked in my boots (had to do with spam or something like that).

God Bless,
Anathama Sit