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View Poll Results: Should we email the media that the '98 percent' stat is bogus?
We should and I WILL! 8 24.24%
We should! 18 54.55%
We should NOT! 7 21.21%
Voters: 33. You may not vote on this poll

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  #31  
Old Feb 12, '12, 12:18 pm
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iloveangels iloveangels is offline
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Default Re: On 98% of Catholic women using contraception

Not at all. When people use birth control that's what they're doing: separating their full intention from their actions. They're doing it for the hell of it with only the part of their beings that they keep in their pants, reserving the rest of themselves to themselves, and not intending to come to full union with their partners. It's a kind of fancy masturbation.
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  #32  
Old Feb 12, '12, 3:38 pm
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Gordon Sims Gordon Sims is online now
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Default Re: On 98% of Catholic women using contraception

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deus_lo_vult View Post
1. On the matter of orthodox Catholic females possibly refusing to participate, why should traditional Catholic women avoid a survey intended to withstand a public hearing (which not only includes supporters but detractors who are unsympathetic to the goals of the organization which conducted it) just because it's conducted by a dubious organization?

I mean they (Guttmacher) can certainly fudge the results, but they won't get away with that forever. Eventually someone will expose the flaws as we have here, so, as far as I'm concerned traditional Catholic women have everything to gain from participating in this study. This leads me to believe that traditional, observant Catholic women were avoided by the researchers because of their (the researchers) ideological biases.
There's no need for them to have opted out. Their responses would have been vetted out by the people doing the study because they don't match up with the results they're looking for. In other words, they only want the Catholic women, age 15-44, who are sexually active and looking to avoid getting pregnant. Everyone else was ignored. If, by default, you refuse to include the responses of Catholic women who aren't sexually active, who are, have recently been or who are trying to get pregnant and those who aren't looking to avoid, how on earth can you say that 98% of Catholic women use it? Not to mention the fact that they clearly state that they consider the 11% of their respondents who use no birth control methods at all as women who use artificial contraceptives.
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  #33  
Old Feb 12, '12, 3:49 pm
Nate13 Nate13 is offline
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Default Re: On 98% of Catholic women using contraception

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gordon Sims View Post
There's no need for them to have opted out. Their responses would have been vetted out by the people doing the study because they don't match up with the results they're looking for. In other words, they only want the Catholic women, age 15-44, who are sexually active and looking to avoid getting pregnant. Everyone else was ignored. If, by default, you refuse to include the responses of Catholic women who aren't sexually active, who are, have recently been or who are trying to get pregnant and those who aren't looking to avoid, how on earth can you say that 98% of Catholic women use it? Not to mention the fact that they clearly state that they consider the 11% of their respondents who use no birth control methods at all as women who use artificial contraceptives.
Exactly, a good study should only look at Catholic married couples who are capable of reproducing. The question should be: "Do you use contraceptives/sterilization as a method of birth control?" It's important to ask whether they are actually using it for birth control and not for some other therapeutic use.
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  #34  
Old Feb 12, '12, 4:31 pm
Hokomai Hokomai is offline
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Default Re: On 98% of Catholic women using contraception

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deus_lo_vult View Post
1. On the matter of orthodox Catholic females possibly refusing to participate, why should traditional Catholic women avoid a survey intended to withstand a public hearing (which not only includes supporters but detractors who are unsympathetic to the goals of the organization which conducted it) just because it's conducted by a dubious organization? .
umm - because they disagree with the organisation doing the survey, because they don't usually discuss their sex lives with strangers, because they would not like admitting to having sinned, or because they did not like the phrasing of the questions, which I have agreed does not easily accommodate the Catholic view.
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  #35  
Old Feb 12, '12, 8:15 pm
Deus_lo_vult Deus_lo_vult is offline
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Post Re: On 98% of Catholic women using contraception

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hokomai View Post
umm - because they disagree with the organisation doing the survey, because they don't usually discuss their sex lives with strangers, because they would not like admitting to having sinned, or because they did not like the phrasing of the questions, which I have agreed does not easily accommodate the Catholic view.
1. This data is collected anonymously. The participants in the study are not listed by name.

2. I'm talking about orthodox Catholic women. Confession is a Sacrament, so I imagine these women would be quite practiced in confessing their innermost sins to strangers, as I am.

3. I disagree with the policies of the Federal government, as a matter of fact, I'm downright scandalized by my government, but I'll still fill out the census and my tax returns. Organizations of which I disapprove are not going to be responsive to my views if I'm silent every time there's a roll call.

By this same logic, disenfranchised minorities should not participate in the democratic process because they disagree with the policies of the government. Participation is often the only way to garner acknowledgement.

4. To not participate is to allow the publication of a survey that unfairly represents the religion to which these women are devoted. Had they been in a position to know this survey was being conducted, I don't doubt that many of them would have offered their opinions, or at least would have assembled and publicly denied the plausibility of the survey.

If I'm standing in a room and I hear someone saying "all Catholics are pro-contraception." I'm going to speak up about it. I'm going to say that it's not true. The logic is the same. As I said before one reason this study is so skewed is because it deliberately avoided a whole subsection of women who were pertinent to the study, and that's one reason that it fails to accurately reflect the true numbers that might have emerged.

Last edited by Deus_lo_vult; Feb 12, '12 at 8:28 pm.
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  #36  
Old Feb 12, '12, 8:43 pm
JimG JimG is offline
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Default Re: On 98% of Catholic women using contraception

Quote:
Originally Posted by Katholish View Post
ummm... the statistic is even more misleading than you suggest. I read through the methodology section of the study, and they state quite clearly, that the survey only covers sexually active women between 15 and 44. It specifically excludes women who are pregnant, postpartum, or trying to become pregnant, covering only women it classifies as "at risk for unintended pregnancy". This criteria alone essentially excludes every Catholic woman actually living according to the Church's teaching.
Interesting.

I was just wondering whether all Catholic women have been asked.
Do they count as "using contraception" if they used it just once when they were 19?

It's the sort of statistic that gets tossed around so much that one suspects it might be meaningless.

Still, I like it in a way. Because if 98% are using contraception, that shows that it is readily available and used. And that means there is simply NO compelling interest for the government to mandate its coverage.
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  #37  
Old Feb 12, '12, 10:32 pm
Hokomai Hokomai is offline
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Default Re: On 98% of Catholic women using contraception

Surveys always have many refusals to participate. You are confusing what you think people should do with actual human behaviour. Here's a link demonstrating the problem:

http://www.fcsm.gov/committees/ihsng/ASA2001.pdf


Quote:
Originally Posted by Deus_lo_vult View Post
1. This data is collected anonymously. The participants in the study are not listed by name.

2. I'm talking about orthodox Catholic women. Confession is a Sacrament, so I imagine these women would be quite practiced in confessing their innermost sins to strangers, as I am.

3. I disagree with the policies of the Federal government, as a matter of fact, I'm downright scandalized by my government, but I'll still fill out the census and my tax returns. Organizations of which I disapprove are not going to be responsive to my views if I'm silent every time there's a roll call.

By this same logic, disenfranchised minorities should not participate in the democratic process because they disagree with the policies of the government. Participation is often the only way to garner acknowledgement.

4. To not participate is to allow the publication of a survey that unfairly represents the religion to which these women are devoted. Had they been in a position to know this survey was being conducted, I don't doubt that many of them would have offered their opinions, or at least would have assembled and publicly denied the plausibility of the survey.

If I'm standing in a room and I hear someone saying "all Catholics are pro-contraception." I'm going to speak up about it. I'm going to say that it's not true. The logic is the same. As I said before one reason this study is so skewed is because it deliberately avoided a whole subsection of women who were pertinent to the study, and that's one reason that it fails to accurately reflect the true numbers that might have emerged.
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  #38  
Old Feb 12, '12, 10:46 pm
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Katholish Katholish is offline
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Default Re: On 98% of Catholic women using contraception

Quote:
Originally Posted by JimG View Post
Interesting.

I was just wondering whether all Catholic women have been asked.
Do they count as "using contraception" if they used it just once when they were 19?

It's the sort of statistic that gets tossed around so much that one suspects it might be meaningless.

Still, I like it in a way. Because if 98% are using contraception, that shows that it is readily available and used. And that means there is simply NO compelling interest for the government to mandate its coverage.
Jim,

The study is a little nebulous on whether or not this is "ever used in one's lifetime" kind of question. They throw in the word "ever" usually when presenting their answer, however, the Methodology section seems quite clear that they are only asking about the past 3 months. When you think about it, however, I am not sure it makes much different even that the survey is only given to women who are both sexually active and trying to avoid pregnancy.

I don't think accepting the number is at all helpful for the reason that you suggest because the study differentiates between "highly effective contraceptives" and less effective. The very term "contraception" is nebulous in itself because it includes non-artificial methods such as withdrawl. The study claims that 68% of Catholics (again, using their limited survey feild) use "highly effective contraceptives, i.e. the pill, sterilization, etc. They will argue that the 68% rate needs to be raised.
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  #39  
Old Feb 13, '12, 7:17 am
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Filii Dei Filii Dei is offline
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Default Re: On 98% of Catholic women using contraception

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hokomai View Post
Yes I think you are right. I had not considered that the Catholic view of 'trying to get pregnant' and 'intended' might lead to different responses. I also think it likely on reflection that a number of Catholic women may have opted out, and this would be disproportionately Catholic women who support church teaching. But as I said earlier, even if you discount the figures by a third, the Church still has a problem, and criticism of the survey methodology will probably just lead to better surveys saying similar things. The issue to me remains the question of why this teaching is so widely and consistently rejected, in the sense that many people who go against it do not see it as a sin.
That's a loaded question. It's like asking why the teaching against genocide is so widely and consistently rejected since many people who go against it do not see it as a sin.

Why do you think morals should be judged solely by the people who disregard it?
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  #40  
Old Feb 13, '12, 7:25 am
Nate13 Nate13 is offline
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Default Re: On 98% of Catholic women using contraception

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Originally Posted by Filii Dei View Post
That's a loaded question. It's like asking why the teaching against genocide is so widely and consistently rejected since many people who go against it do not see it as a sin.

Why do you think morals should be judged solely by the people who disregard it?
My question would be why was it rejected after being consistently regarded as Truth for so long? Now I'm sure Hokomai would then say well we just got smarter and discarded old notions, but I would argue that we disregarded the Truth in favor of even older notions back in the Pagan days. Our approach to sex in the modern day is nothing new and to all purposes is actually a step back. There is nothing progressive about the mainstream view of sex today at all and I would actually call it regressive.

The number of people who accept or don't accept a teaching has nothing to do with the teachings value if it is done for a misguided notion. Past acceptance of the teaching on contraception means nothing if it was misguided and current disregard for it means nothing if it is misguided.
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  #41  
Old Feb 13, '12, 11:55 am
_Abyssinia _Abyssinia is offline
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Default Re: On 98% of Catholic women using contraception

Figure That 98% of Catholic Women Use Birth Control Debunked

http://www.lifenews.com/2012/02/13/f...trol-debunked/

-

How the White House’s 98% Contraception Figure for Catholics is Wrong

http://www.catholicvote.org/discuss/index.php?p=26675
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  #42  
Old Feb 13, '12, 12:53 pm
Semper Zelare Semper Zelare is offline
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Default Re: On 98% of Catholic women using contraception

I thought I'd post a thread which actually polls CAF members on this issue.

Even if the 98% figure were right, there's no way that CAF is made up solely of those people. I think this forum has to be at least somewhat representative of the Catholic population at large.

It's also in this sub-forum.
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=644921

So, go there if you want to vote about your views of contraception, and whether you've used it in the past.
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  #43  
Old Feb 13, '12, 1:05 pm
Hokomai Hokomai is offline
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Default Re: On 98% of Catholic women using contraception

Quote:
Originally Posted by Filii Dei View Post
That's a loaded question. It's like asking why the teaching against genocide is so widely and consistently rejected since many people who go against it do not see it as a sin.

Why do you think morals should be judged solely by the people who disregard it?
Well, yes - this would be an excellent question about genocide, given (just one example) the history of Catholic Croatia. A difference would, I suppose, be that there is scriptural support for genocide (Joshua, Jericho to cite but one), but none for contraception.

I do not, of course think that "morals should be judged solely by the people who disregard them". My interest here is in the failure of the Church to gain support for what it considers a key teaching, even among its faithful.
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  #44  
Old Feb 13, '12, 1:20 pm
Deus_lo_vult Deus_lo_vult is offline
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Post Re: On 98% of Catholic women using contraception

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Originally Posted by Hokomai View Post
Well, yes - this would be an excellent question about genocide, given (just one example) the history of Catholic Croatia. A difference would, I suppose, be that there is scriptural support for genocide (Joshua, Jericho to cite but one), but none for contraception.

I do not, of course think that "morals should be judged solely by the people who disregard them". My interest here is in the failure of the Church to gain support for what it considers a key teaching, even among its faithful.
I've argued all day long on this forum and elsewhere that on a parish level, many Catholics never receive any form of instruction in Catholic theology, and that's why many Catholics view certain teachings as arbitrary and tyrannical, for the same reason a child doesn't understand why he has to go to bed earlier than he wants to, or why he's not allowed to eat without washing his hands first. When those children are educated, they no longer kick and scream about following these rules.

Unfortunately, I suspect that many parish priests are afraid of scaring off more liberal parishioners. But if those Catholics are prepared to disobey Church teaching in favor of worldly distractions, were they ever really in communion with the Church to begin with? It was like their presence at Mass was basically a lie.

Last edited by Deus_lo_vult; Feb 13, '12 at 1:30 pm.
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  #45  
Old Feb 13, '12, 1:28 pm
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iloveangels iloveangels is offline
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Default Re: On 98% of Catholic women using contraception

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Originally Posted by Hokomai View Post
Surveys always have many refusals to participate. You are confusing what you think people should do with actual human behaviour. Here's a link demonstrating the problem:

http://www.fcsm.gov/committees/ihsng/ASA2001.pdf

This is absolutely true. I am trained in statistics and understand polling methodologies. I have designed focus groups for private industry. Many of these polls are very flawed.

You remember the polls in November at election time. They can be quite wrong, as I'm sure you have seen. Relying on just one poll is very dangerous, and can well tell you nothing at all. It's called "lying with statistics." It takes very sophisticated technologies to get even a fair idea of what people are thinking. And if there are many people who won't participate in a poll when asked, even the finest-designed poll is completely worthless.

Have you ever seen this picture before?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fileeweytruman12.jpg

[That's not President Dewey. "President" Dewey never existed because he did not win the election. That's President Truman on the morning after the Presidential election in 1948. The newspaper company, the Chicago Tribune, had projected Dewey as the winner based on their polls, so they printed up the newspaper and sent it to the stores and had it delivered around the city. OOOOOPS. Needless to say, they got more careful and knowledgeable about polling after that. ]

Go ahead and click. The link still works. By a funny coincidence ": D" without the space is in the URL title.

Last edited by iloveangels; Feb 13, '12 at 1:48 pm.
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