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  #31  
Old Feb 14, '12, 7:49 am
Della Della is offline
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Default Re: What scriptural basis do we have for Fatima's divinity?

Quote:
Originally Posted by razredge View Post
Ok, firstly Fatima is probably the best attested Marian apparition, so it's definitely the one I'm most likely to believe.

It isn't demonstrably false like Guadalupe where any half-wit can see that the tilma is painted by human hands and is not acheiropoieta.
I don't know where you got this, but it's an outright lie. Just the opposite is true. The image was NOT painted. This has been proved by scientists.

Quote:
However even with Fatima there are objections on both historic/scientific and theological grounds. For example the miracle of the sun was not seen by many of the witnesses on the day and those who did see something had quite conflicting accounts of what it is they saw.
And if they did see something it was most likely due to them staring at the sun for extended periods of time or due to meterological factors like viewing the sun through clouds etc.

Also there are no pictures of the sun during the miracle.

We must also look at Sr Lucia and her claim that Mary predicted the death of Jacinta and Francisco, however Sr Lucia first made this claim in 1927, well after the fact.

Then the second secret of Fatima claims that “ if people do not cease offending God, a worse one will break out during the pontificate of Pius XI” However this secret was made known in the Third Memoir which was written in August 1941, so again a case of vaticinium ex eventu.

Other aspects of the visions are also quite fanciful, like the rather medieval conception of hell as fire and brimstone as well as her claim to have met the guardian angel of Portugal! (I wonder if the national guardian angels fight each other during wars )
You are wrong on all these points. Lucia's bishop knew the things Mary told her and the other children because they told him about it. Lucia's writings are not the only source material for the predictions. And who in 1917 would be able to take a picture of the sun dancing? And why can't Lucia have seen Portugal's guardian angel? Every country has one, and I'm sure they would prevent wars if they could get men to be good, as we ought to be. I'm sure they intercede for the people involved. What a disgusting idea to suggest they would encourage wars among men.

What you are saying with all this is that the Church has either been duplicitous in telling lies or it was duped. It is plain you have been reading anti-religious/Catholic material bent on destroying people's faith by obfusticating the facts or outright lying. They are deceiving you.

Look at the expression "half wit". What does that say? It says sneering disbelief--that's what it says, and it's right off the atheists' list of abusive expressions for those who believe in God. I'm not saying you are an atheist, but you are definitely being influenced by them. Ask yourself is it really the Church's reputation you are concerned about or is it something else that's driving your need to write calumnies like this? Only you can answer that.

The Church never just takes anyone's word for the veracity of apparitions/inner locutions/miraculous events, etc. It thoroughly investigates such claims employing scientists who aren't/don't need to be Catholic or of any belief at all. If you cannot/will not believe this look into it for yourself. Open you mind to the possibility that the Church isn't some "head in the clouds" institution that wants to believe every nut that claims to see something. It most certainly isn't that. Just the opposite is true. The bishops grill those who make such claims and investigate and wait until the evidence is overwhelming before making any pronouncements.
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  #32  
Old Feb 14, '12, 3:15 pm
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beehumble beehumble is offline
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Default Re: What scriptural basis do we have for Fatima's divinity?

Quote:
Originally Posted by razredge View Post
Ok, firstly Fatima is probably the best attested Marian apparition, so it's definitely the one I'm most likely to believe.

It isn't demonstrably false like Guadalupe where any half-wit can see that the tilma is painted by human hands and is not acheiropoieta.

However even with Fatima there are objections on both historic/scientific and theological grounds. For example the miracle of the sun was not seen by many of the witnesses on the day and those who did see something had quite conflicting accounts of what it is they saw.
And if they did see something it was most likely due to them staring at the sun for extended periods of time or due to meterological factors like viewing the sun through clouds etc.

Also there are no pictures of the sun during the miracle.

We must also look at Sr Lucia and her claim that Mary predicted the death of Jacinta and Francisco, however Sr Lucia first made this claim in 1927, well after the fact.

Then the second secret of Fatima claims that “ if people do not cease offending God, a worse one will break out during the pontificate of Pius XI” However this secret was made known in the Third Memoir which was written in August 1941, so again a case of vaticinium ex eventu.

Other aspects of the visions are also quite fanciful, like the rather medieval conception of hell as fire and brimstone as well as her claim to have met the guardian angel of Portugal! (I wonder if the national guardian angels fight each other during wars )
You need to learn about Fatima and get your facts straight before you proceed to discuss it in an open forum, so that you don't embarrass yourself. It is increasingly obvious with each of your succeeding posts that you have not done any research on Fatima and so are way out of your depth. As the saying goes,
"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt."
Simply put, what you don't know about Fatima (and Guadalupe, and guardian angels, for that matter) is a lot.

(Just one of the so many things you do not know about Fatima - people not at Fatima saw the sun miracle too, proving it was not mass hysteria or a mass hallucination, nor caused by looking too long at the sun - since those many miles away only looked once they saw the sun moving oddly in the sky - they were not present to see or hear Lucia mention about looking at the sun.)

Can you just please give me the motive for Lucia making this stuff up? She gained nor desired any wealth, and any fame was not hers - she remained a simple person who lived out her days in a simple convent. So it makes no sense for her to make this up.

God bless you.
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I will take Francisco and Jacinta [to Heaven] soon, but you must remain A While Longer. Jesus wishes to use you to make me better known and loved.
- Our Lady of Fatima to Lucia, 13 June 1917
  #33  
Old Feb 14, '12, 6:51 pm
razredge razredge is offline
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Default Re: What scriptural basis do we have for Fatima's divinity?

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Originally Posted by Della View Post
I don't know where you got this, but it's an outright lie. Just the opposite is true. The image was NOT painted. This has been proved by scientists.
Sigh, some people's credulous attitude to the Guadalupe tilma brings 'the Emperor's New Clothes' to mind. If you'd ask anyone unacquainted with the legend- a small child, a taxi driver, an art historian whether the Tilma looked like it was painted by God himself would they agree? Of course not, if it was painted by God it'd be the most sublime painting in existence far exceeding anything painted by human artists.

The tilma is most decidedly not any of these things and while some early 'scientific' investigations (conducted by believers) claimed that there was no evidence of brushstrokes more recent investigations state otherwise:

Quote:
Actually, infrared photographs show that the hands have been modified, and close-up photography shows that pigment has been applied to the highlight areas of the face sufficiently heavily so as to obscure the texture of the cloth. There is also obvious cracking and flaking of paint all along a vertical seam, and the infrared photos reveal in the robe's fold what appear to be sketch lines, suggesting that an artist roughed out the figure before painting it. Portrait artist Glenn Taylor has pointed out that the part in the Virgin's hair is off-center; that her eyes, including the irises, have outlines, as they often do in paintings, but not in nature, and that these outlines appear to have been done with a brush; and that much other evidence suggests the picture was probably copied by an inexpert artist from an expertly done original.

Recently our findings were confirmed when the Spanish-language magazine Proceso reported the results of a secret study of the Image of Guadalupe. It had been conducted - secretly - in 1982 by art restoration expert José Sol Rosales. Rosales examined the cloth with a stereomicroscope and observed that the canvas appeared to be a mixture of linen and hemp or cactus fiber. It had been prepared with a brush coat of white primer (calcium sulfate), and the image was then rendered in distemper (i.e., paint consisting of pigment, water, and a binding medium). The artist used a "very limited palette," the expert stated, consisting of black (from pine soot), white, blue, green, various earth colors ("tierras"), reds (including carmine), and gold. Rosales concluded that the image did not originate supernaturally but was instead the work of an artist who used the materials and methods of the sixteenth century (El Vaticano 2002).

Quote:
You are wrong on all these points. Lucia's bishop knew the things Mary told her and the other children because they told him about it. Lucia's writings are not the only source material for the predictions. And who in 1917 would be able to take a picture of the sun dancing? And why can't Lucia have seen Portugal's guardian angel? Every country has one, and I'm sure they would prevent wars if they could get men to be good, as we ought to be.
Oh really, please show me evidence that Lucia predicted Jacinta's and Francisco's death and the beginning of WWII before the fact (not to mention the statement was that a war would break out in the reign of Pope Pius XI when actually it broke out under Pius XII )

If you see no problem with there being a guardian angel of Portugal, then i'm afraid arguing with you will be a fruitless exercise. Tell me how do you know that 'every country has a guardian angel'? Does the EU have one? Do cities, states and regions have their own guardian angels? When Yugoslavia broke up did its guardian angel retire and did God appoint angels to the newly formed states?

Quote:
Look at the expression "half wit". What does that say? It says sneering disbelief--that's what it says, and it's right off the atheists' list of abusive expressions for those who believe in God. I'm not saying you are an atheist, but you are definitely being influenced by them. Ask yourself is it really the Church's reputation you are concerned about or is it something else that's driving your need to write calumnies like this? Only you can answer that.
If I am influenced by anything it is reason, critical thinking and skeptical inquiry which should not be conflated with atheism. And yes, I am very concerned about the Church's reputation, as Pope Benedict says: "That which is Catholic cannot be stupid, and that which is stupid cannot be Catholic"



Quote:
It thoroughly investigates such claims employing scientists who aren't/don't need to be Catholic or of any belief at all. If you cannot/will not believe this look into it for yourself. Open you mind to the possibility that the Church isn't some "head in the clouds" institution that wants to believe every nut that claims to see something. It most certainly isn't that. Just the opposite is true. The bishops grill those who make such claims and investigate and wait until the evidence is overwhelming before making any pronouncements.[
Of course it does - i'm certainly not saying it approves every miraculous claim- the issue is that the final decision to approve is not always made on rational grounds and there have been plenty of cases where skeptical factions within the Church are ignored to appease the faithful who believe in the miracle. For example Guadalupe is a national icon of Mexico and was a deciding factorand the Church would not be willing to risk the umbrage of Latin American Catholics by declaring it not to be genuine. Nor would it do them good to admit that the apparition that led to the conversion of Mexico was actually false. To declare Guadalupe anything other than authentic would have been political suicide.

http://www.lasculturas.com/aa/aa060600a.htm
  #34  
Old Feb 14, '12, 7:00 pm
razredge razredge is offline
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Default Re: What scriptural basis do we have for Fatima's divinity?

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Originally Posted by beehumble View Post
You need to learn about Fatima and get your facts straight before you proceed to discuss it in an open forum, so that you don't embarrass yourself. It is increasingly obvious with each of your succeeding posts that you have not done any research on Fatima and so are way out of your depth. As the saying goes,
Actually, learning more about Fatima was the reason I now am skeptical towards it, previously I thought it actually did happen.

Quote:
(Just one of the so many things you do not know about Fatima - people not at Fatima saw the sun miracle too, proving it was not mass hysteria or a mass hallucination, nor caused by looking too long at the sun - since those many miles away only looked once they saw the sun moving oddly in the sky - they were not present to see or hear Lucia mention about looking at the sun.)
Actually, I've heard of that before - but a single shepherd in the hills saying he saw the sun move in the sky doesn't prove anything - more telling is the fact that no observatory in the world noticed anything unusual with the sun

Quote:
Can you just please give me the motive for Lucia making this stuff up? She gained nor desired any wealth, and any fame was not hers - she remained a simple person who lived out her days in a simple convent. So it makes no sense for her to make this up.
Sure:

Quote:
to fully comprehend the entire Fatima experience, we must look more closely at its central figure—not the Virgin Mary but Lucia de Jesus Santos. Born on March 22, 1907, to Antonio and Maria Rosa Santos, Lucia was the youngest of seven children. Five years younger than her next-oldest sibling, Lucia was a petted and spoiled child. Her sisters fostered in her a desire to be the center of attention by teaching her to dance and sing. At festivals, Lucia would stand on a crate to entertain an adoring crowd. Among her other talents was a gift for telling stories—fairy tales, biblical narratives, and saints’ legends—which made her popular with village children, as well as an ability to persuade others to do her bidding.

Two years before the famous series of apparitions occurred at Fatima, eight-year-old Lucia and three girlfriends claimed to have seen apparitions of a snow-white figure on three occasions. Lucia’s mother called the experiences “childish nonsense.” The following year, Lucia, Francisco, and Jacinta were thrice visited by an “angel.”

Lucia’s background is revealing. The seeds of her later visionary encounters were clearly contained in her childhood experiences and in her obviously fantasy-prone personality.1 Her charismatic ability to influence others drew little Francisco and Jacinta into the Fatima fantasy. As Zimdars-Swartz says of Lucia:

It is clear that she played the leading role in the scenario of the apparition itself. All accounts agree that she was the only one of the three seers to interact with both her vision and with the crowd, carrying on conversations with both while her two cousins stood by silently. She has said, moreover, and probably not incorrectly, that Francisco and Jacinta had been accustomed to follow her directives before the apparition began, that they turned to her for guidance afterwards, and that it was she who convinced them that they had to be very careful in their experiences. (Zimdars-Swartz 1991, 68)

Further evidence that Lucia orchestrated the fantasy and manipulated the other children is provided by certain incidents. For example, when Jacinta first told the story, she stated that the Virgin had said many things that she was unable to recall but “which Lucia knows.” Lucia’s own mother was convinced that her precocious daughter was, in her words, “nothing but a fake who is leading half the world astray” (qtd. in Zimdars-Swartz 1991, 71, 86).
  #35  
Old Feb 14, '12, 7:29 pm
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beehumble beehumble is offline
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Default Re: What scriptural basis do we have for Fatima's divinity?

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Originally Posted by razredge View Post
Actually, learning more about Fatima was the reason I now am skeptical towards it, previously I thought it actually did happen.



Actually, I've heard of that before - but a single shepherd in the hills saying he saw the sun move in the sky doesn't prove anything - more telling is the fact that no observatory in the world noticed anything unusual with the sun



Sure:
A fool argues with fools, so I won't spend much time here except to say

1) you are being disingenuous in saying you heard that before, then saying "a single shepherd in the hills", when it was more than a single shepherd in the hills. No observatory seeing it just means it was supernatural, not natural (i.e. perhaps something between the people and the actual sun that they saw - hence blocking their view of the actual sun.)

2) you say, "Oh really, please show me evidence that Lucia predicted Jacinta's and Francisco's death and the beginning of WWII before the fact (not to mention the statement was that a war would break out in the reign of Pope Pius XI when actually it broke out under Pius XII )"

If it was written after the fact, with the intent to fool people, don't you think they would have taken their time and got that little detail correct about Pius XI versus Pius XII??????
Instead, historians have agreed that WWII started earlier than Sept 1, 1939. Pius Xi died in Feb 1939, but Japan was already at war with China in 1937 - and many historians agree the war actually started when Hitler annexed Austria in 1938. he did this to test the Allied response, and getting none, moved into the Sudetenland, then all of Czechoslovakia, then made demands on Danzig, then invaded Poland. And Italy invaded Ethiopia in 1935.

And all that nonsense psychobabble about Lucia manipulating the other children still does not provide a motive for her to later join a convent and follow a simple, humble life out of the limelight.

Anyway, that is enough for me in this thread - just made a few basic corrections here but to argue with a fool is to become a bigger fool, and I do not intend to go there.

Good day and God bless you.
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I will take Francisco and Jacinta [to Heaven] soon, but you must remain A While Longer. Jesus wishes to use you to make me better known and loved.
- Our Lady of Fatima to Lucia, 13 June 1917
  #36  
Old Feb 14, '12, 7:35 pm
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Default Re: What scriptural basis do we have for Fatima's divinity?

scriptural basis? oh yeah, the Church's inability to teach wrongly... Matt 16 18.
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  #37  
Old Feb 14, '12, 9:16 pm
razredge razredge is offline
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Default Re: What scriptural basis do we have for Fatima's divinity?

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Originally Posted by beehumble View Post
1) you are being disingenuous in saying you heard that before, then saying "a single shepherd in the hills", when it was more than a single shepherd in the hills. No observatory seeing it just means it was supernatural, not natural (i.e. perhaps something between the people and the actual sun that they saw - hence blocking their view of the actual sun.)
Ok, I do not know exactly how many people saw the vision from afar.

HOw many people not at the Cova saw the Miracle of the Sun and what did they see?

And the Miracle if not involving the actual Sun is far more likely to be some kind of vision or hallucination rather than an actual physical phenomenon occluding the view of the actual Sun (as about half the crowd at the Cova didn't see anything, which they would had it been a physical phenomenon).



Quote:
If it was written after the fact, with the intent to fool people, don't you think they would have taken their time and got that little detail correct about Pius XI versus Pius XII??????
Instead, historians have agreed that WWII started earlier than Sept 1, 1939. Pius Xi died in Feb 1939, but Japan was already at war with China in 1937 - and many historians agree the war actually started when Hitler annexed Austria in 1938. he did this to test the Allied response, and getting none, moved into the Sudetenland, then all of Czechoslovakia, then made demands on Danzig, then invaded Poland. And Italy invaded Ethiopia in 1935.
Lucia herself has argued for the 1938 date of the annexation of Austria - but even granting that the war began under Pius XI, it's irrelevant as the secret first appeared in 1941 in the Third Memoir.

Quote:
And all that nonsense psychobabble about Lucia manipulating the other children still does not provide a motive for her to later join a convent and follow a simple, humble life out of the limelight.
Excuse me, none of it is psychobabble - that excerpt just shows that Lucia was apt at telling fanciful stories and her own mother thought she was leading half the world astray.

Also don't you think it is just a little too convenient that Lucia claimed that only she could hear the secrets from Mary? Neatly sidestepping any problems with conflicting accounts that might arise.

And maybe she was quite taken back at just how successful her prank had become and just wanded to fade away from the limelight (and of course any questioning which might expose the truth).
  #38  
Old Feb 15, '12, 5:16 am
nordskoven nordskoven is offline
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Default Re: What scriptural basis do we have for Fatima's divinity?

The Church, which gave us the Holy Bible, may be relied on to rule on the consonance of private revelation--belief optional--with divine truth. We, for our part, well may inquire as to scriptural parallels surfacing in approved apparitions and interior locutions.

Daniel, the prophet who predicted Messiah's triumphant entrance into Jerusalem to the day, memorialized as Palm Sunday, twice made mention of guardian angels: The Prince of Persia who warred against the angelic messenger 21 days; and Michael, as the guardian angel of the Children of God. The Angel of Peace protecting Portugal parallels Biblical revelation which would have been fantastic for peasant children to have known; children who thought "Russia" was some bad lady.

Another parallel with Biblical events is that of true prophets predicting war when the pundits and false prophets insist upon the reverse. Now denominated "World War I," the war engaged in at the time of the Fatima, Portugal, apparitions was called The Great War; and "The War to End All Wars." NOBODY THOUGHT THERE WOULD BE ANOTHER WAR, LET ALONE A WORLD WAR, AFTER "THE WAR TO END ALL WARS," OR WHAT IS NOW CALLED WORLD WAR I. NOBODY THOUGHT WRETCHED, BACKWARDS RUSSIA WOULD BE PIVOTAL IN EFFECTING ANYTHING GLOBAL, LET ALONE GENOCIDE TOTALLING IN THE MILLIONS. NOBODY KNEW OF RUSSIAN GENOCIDE AGAINST THE KULAKS, INITIATED IN 1929, THE VERY YEAR OUR LADY RETURNED TO SISTER LUCIA TO ASK FOR THE TIMELY CONSECRATION OF RUSSIA TO HER IMMACULATE HEART.

What a prodigy this Lucia Dos Santos may be considered to be if her revelations are not of divine origin. These warnings and prophecies she relayed from Our Lady of the Rosary are spot-on and irrefutible. Lucia's character was so sterling and her catechetic training so thorough that she taught other children, and was herself granted First Communion at an uncommonly early age. She was entrusted with the care of many children in her community, and particularly entrusted with the duties of shepherdess at an early age. She endured beatings by her mother and shunning by her family and community where once she was the pampered darling, all to uphold truth, one may presume.

Would it be seemly, or logical, to use smear tactics, AD HOMINEM attacks, against questioners and suggest that they are delusional liars and mask our caustic disdain as skepticism? 100,000 people saw the Miracle of the Sun. There are no mass delusions with a shared common experience, as from ergot poisoning causing mass hallucinations, let alone one in which the hallucinated Sun dried up fields that were, moments before, knee-deep with mud; and cleaned all the clothing of those in attendance. This is good quantum physics and those well-schooled in physics make some of the best apologists.

We are commanded by Jesus Christ to keep asking, seeking and knocking. Ask God to clarify His intent and for enlightenment. The simple fact is, God wishes to establish in the world devotion to the Immaculate Heart because there is no way to honor this purity of intent without seeking to emulate that perfection which we all must seek to obey Christ's command to be pefect even as our Father in Heaven is perfect. That one area in which we can seek and obtain perfection is not of action but of intent, which sanctifies our actions. That's Biblical.

Our Lady's temporal salvation offered at Fatima is also Biblical. The Woman of Genesis, "woman" being the Genesis title Christ used exclusively to describe His mother, is described as Adam's "helpmate" which is an impoverished translation of a potent word used elsewhere only of God! This is paralleled by wisdom having a feminine persona, as in Proverbs. This "helpmate" is to be an instrument of life-giving, as one who gives water to a man dying of thirst. She is not the water; but she brings the water that saves the life. She's not THE Savior, but she has salvific duties. So we're back to Genesis, and the Woman & Seed's divine mandate to war against the Father of Lies and Murder and his spiritual seed.

I hope my previous post will be revisited as no response has been forthcoming. Blessings.
  #39  
Old Feb 15, '12, 9:01 am
Della Della is offline
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Default Re: What scriptural basis do we have for Fatima's divinity?

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Originally Posted by razredge View Post
Sigh, some people's credulous attitude to the Guadalupe tilma brings 'the Emperor's New Clothes' to mind. If you'd ask anyone unacquainted with the legend- a small child, a taxi driver, an art historian whether the Tilma looked like it was painted by God himself would they agree? Of course not, if it was painted by God it'd be the most sublime painting in existence far exceeding anything painted by human artists.

The tilma is most decidedly not any of these things and while some early 'scientific' investigations (conducted by believers) claimed that there was no evidence of brushstrokes more recent investigations state otherwise:
First of all, there's no need for the sarcasm. And no, I don't believe if you were to ask just anyone if such an image were possible you'd get nothing but negative replies. Besides which it would hardly prove anything. Jesus' resurrection and incarnation are hardly everyday events, either, but millions of people believe that with no more evidence that the Church's word for it (the Bible being a product of the holy men of Israel and of the Apostles).

The original image has had some paint applied to it, yes, which I think was quite wrong to do, but that's another matter. The overall image was NOT painted on and that was proved by real scientists and is still upheld by any real scientists who have actually examined it.

Quote:
Oh really, please show me evidence that Lucia predicted Jacinta's and Francisco's death and the beginning of WWII before the fact (not to mention the statement was that a war would break out in the reign of Pope Pius XI when actually it broke out under Pius XII )
If the Church believed these things unreliable it would never have approved Fatima. You aren't reading what we're writing here--the Church investigates these things thoroughly. You need to have a good long talk with your priest--not to accept any apparition but about your unwillingness to agree that the Church has the authority to make pronouncements about such matters.

Quote:
If you see no problem with there being a guardian angel of Portugal, then i'm afraid arguing with you will be a fruitless exercise. Tell me how do you know that 'every country has a guardian angel'? Does the EU have one? Do cities, states and regions have their own guardian angels? When Yugoslavia broke up did its guardian angel retire and did God appoint angels to the newly formed states?
No, I have no problem with guardian angels of any place/people/individuals. Do you really think God is so stupid he doesn't understand the shifts in politics and doesn't assign angels as they are needed? Some angels have many "duties" they perform. It's no problem for them at all. You are the one who can't seem to see beyond the mere physical world.

Quote:
If I am influenced by anything it is reason, critical thinking and skeptical inquiry which should not be conflated with atheism. And yes, I am very concerned about the Church's reputation, as Pope Benedict says: "That which is Catholic cannot be stupid, and that which is stupid cannot be Catholic"
Yes, and Pope Benedict firmly believes in the miraculous because it is not stupid to believe but it is stupid to read material intended to destroy your faith and take it at face value.

Quote:
Of course it does - i'm certainly not saying it approves every miraculous claim- the issue is that the final decision to approve is not always made on rational grounds and there have been plenty of cases where skeptical factions within the Church are ignored to appease the faithful who believe in the miracle. For example Guadalupe is a national icon of Mexico and was a deciding factorand the Church would not be willing to risk the umbrage of Latin American Catholics by declaring it not to be genuine. Nor would it do them good to admit that the apparition that led to the conversion of Mexico was actually false. To declare Guadalupe anything other than authentic would have been political suicide.

http://www.lasculturas.com/aa/aa060600a.htm
So now the Church is merely concerned with politics and will compromise the truth for the sake of it? And the link is evidence you are reading material meant to cast doubt by unproved accusations and calumnies of the worst kind. This is not how a Catholic should learn about his Church. You really need to talk to your priest, and I mean ASAP. Call him today to set up an appointment.
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  #40  
Old Feb 15, '12, 10:27 am
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Exclamation Re: What scriptural basis do we have for Fatima's divinity?

Thanks to all who participated in this discussion.
The question, having been answered, this thread is now closed.
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