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  #16  
Old Feb 17, '12, 8:10 am
incense incense is offline
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Default Re: Obama administration deletes religious service for student loan forgiveness

What a tricky way to separate Catholic institutions away from the Catholic Church.

For years, the democrats have slyly used "freedom of worship" instead of "freedom of religion" in their language. What's the big fuss right now? Obama has just decided that religious institutions aren't really religious if they don't primarily employee people of their religion, give services to people primarily of their religion, and the services must primarily inculcate the faith.

Now he's telling young, vulnerable college students, to get money, you have to agree that the work you're doing in these institutions is not religious. It'll look good in court when he's trying to prove they're not religious.

So is healing the sick, feeding the hungry, taking care of the orphan, etc., are those religious acts or not? The courts have always stayed away from defining the doctrine of a church. That is interference of the state in a church. But Obama has no such qualms. He does what the courts haven't done in over 200 years.

To trust anything he's doing is simply foolish. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.
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  #17  
Old Feb 17, '12, 9:36 am
Bubba Switzler Bubba Switzler is offline
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Default Re: Obama administration deletes religious service for student loan forgiveness

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rence View Post
Until people are ready to not accept government funded education, welfare, health care, food stampe, wic, etc. the government will be involved in health, education and welfare. It easy to say that all this should be handled individually or through the Church, but the fact of the matter is, it's NOT.
Of course, it is not. Long before the founding fathers the Greeks had observed the danger of people voting themselves benefits from the public purse. This is nothing new.

But I notice that you dodged the question.

The question is why should a Catholic wish his money to pass through the government instead of the Church on its way to helping the needy.

I understand why a secularist would favor that. And I understand why a secularist posing as a Catholic would prefer that.

But I don't understand why a Catholic would prefer that.
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  #18  
Old Feb 17, '12, 12:08 pm
Rence Rence is offline
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Default Re: Obama administration deletes religious service for student loan forgiveness

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubba Switzler View Post
Of course, it is not. Long before the founding fathers the Greeks had observed the danger of people voting themselves benefits from the public purse. This is nothing new.

But I notice that you dodged the question.

The question is why should a Catholic wish his money to pass through the government instead of the Church on its way to helping the needy.

I understand why a secularist would favor that. And I understand why a secularist posing as a Catholic would prefer that.

But I don't understand why a Catholic would prefer that.
I have no opinon on whether or not a Catholic should wish his/her money to pass through the government instead of the Church on its way to helping the needy. It doesn't matter whether they prefer it or not. Catholics who live in this country are required to pay taxes, regardless of whether they prefer to pay their taxes or not, which fund various social programs and services, and it doesn't matter whether or not they wish to pass their money through the governemnt on its way to helping the needy. However, just because one pays taxes, which funds social programs, doesn't mean they can't also give money through the charity organizations of their choice on its way to helping the needy. So I don't even understand why you are even asking the question. Living in a society, in a community, requires financing the community, regardless of whether one likes those services or not, or even if they will ever use the services or not. If a Catholic prefers their money to be shunted through a particular entity in order to care for the needy, they are certainly not prevented from doing so by paying their taxes. Jesus said it Himself: Give to Caesar what is owed to Caesar. Give to God what is owed to God.
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  #19  
Old Feb 17, '12, 12:22 pm
Bubba Switzler Bubba Switzler is offline
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Default Re: Obama administration deletes religious service for student loan forgiveness

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rence View Post
I have no opinon on whether or not a Catholic should wish his/her money to pass through the government instead of the Church on its way to helping the needy.
Really?! That's quite surprising. Because you certainly hold an opinion on how the government should handle the money it taken. In fact, you are not short of opinions on much of anything else.

But this is something you "have no opinion on"?

Is it because you have never thought the matter through or because you are afraid to think where it might lead?

Quote:
It doesn't matter whether they prefer it or not. Catholics who live in this country are required to pay taxes, regardless of whether they prefer to pay their taxes or not, which fund various social programs and services, and it doesn't matter whether or not they wish to pass their money through the governemnt on its way to helping the needy.
Of course, it does matter. Setting aside the possibility of not paying taxes, Catholics can vote.

It may or may not be advisable for Catholics to vote toward policies that benefit religious service, Catholics do, in fact, have a much simpler and direct choices: to favor reducing the money that is passed to government in the first place and send that money, instead, to the Church.

I am always amused by secularist who pretend that those who hold religious values have no choice but to go along with secularism.

Quote:
However, just because one pays taxes, which funds social programs, doesn't mean they can't also give money through the charity organizations of their choice on its way to helping the needy. So I don't even understand why you are even asking the question. Living in a society, in a community, requires financing the community, regardless of whether one likes those services or not, or even if they will ever use the services or not. If a Catholic prefers their money to be shunted through a particular entity in order to care for the needy, they are certainly not prevented from doing so by paying their taxes. Jesus said it Himself: Give to Caesar what is owed to Caesar. Give to God what is owed to God.
So you have a definite opinion here, it seems, exactly the opinion one would expect from a secularist.
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  #20  
Old Feb 17, '12, 12:37 pm
Rence Rence is offline
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Default Re: Obama administration deletes religious service for student loan forgiveness

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubba Switzler View Post
Really?! That's quite surprising. Because you certainly hold an opinion on how the government should handle the money it taken. In fact, you are not short of opinions on much of anything else. But this is something you "have no opinion on"? Is it because you have never thought the matter through or because you are afraid to think where it might lead?
Ok, here's what I think about your question about Catholics who don wanna pay taxes in order to pay social services because they'd rather pay it to another provider of charity: 1) One is *required* to pay taxes and those taxes are used to finance community based services from fixing the roads, to garbage pickup, to WIC and food stamps, etc. So it's irrelevent that someone doesn't wanna pay it. Living in a community, being part of a community, and taking advantage of perks that come with living in that community means paying taxes to support that community regardless of whether one likes it or not. 2) paying taxes does not prevent people from contributing to the charity organization of their choice. They just have to pay their taxes as well as contribute to the charity organization. Most people don't have a problem doing just that. In fact, they do just that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubba Switzler View Post
Of course, it does matter. Setting aside the possibility of not paying taxes, Catholics can vote.
Then lobby your lawmakers and tell them you don't wanna pay your taxes. Lobbying me is useless because I don't collect them, I won't fine you for not paying them and I won't garnish your wages for not paying them. Lobby to someone who can help you get out of paying your taxes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubba Switzler View Post
It may or may not be advisable for Catholics to vote toward policies that benefit religious service, Catholics do, in fact, have a much simpler and direct choices: to favor reducing the money that is passed to government in the first place and send that money, instead, to the Church.
You're trying to convince the wrong person

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubba Switzler View Post
I am always amused by secularist who pretend that those who hold religious values have no choice but to go along with secularism.
They don't have to go along with secularism, but they do have to pay their taxes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubba Switzler View Post
So you have a definite opinion here, it seems, exactly the opinion one would expect from a secularist.
Well, you asked for my opinion, and you got it. Something tells me that you don't like it though. Sorry about that. I guess we're not always going to agree on everything...
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  #21  
Old Feb 17, '12, 12:42 pm
VeritasLuxMea VeritasLuxMea is online now
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Default Re: Obama administration deletes religious service for student loan forgiveness

This was a good decision by the administration. Why would government pay others in effect for proselytizing?
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  #22  
Old Feb 17, '12, 12:48 pm
Bubba Switzler Bubba Switzler is offline
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Default Re: Obama administration deletes religious service for student loan forgiveness

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rence View Post
Ok, here's what I think about your question about Catholics who don wanna pay taxes in order to pay social services because they'd rather pay it to another provider of charity: 1) One is *required* to pay taxes and those taxes are used to finance community based services from fixing the roads, to garbage pickup, to WIC and food stamps, etc. So it's irrelevent that someone doesn't wanna pay it. Living in a community, being part of a community, and taking advantage of perks that come with living in that community means paying taxes to support that community regardless of whether one likes it or not. 2) paying taxes does not prevent people from contributing to the charity organization of their choice. They just have to pay their taxes as well as contribute to the charity organization. Most people don't have a problem doing just that. In fact, they do just that.
Of course, paying taxes does reduce monies available for other purposes.

Every dollar that the government takes is a dollar unavailable to the care of the community.

Contrary to your imputation that people can only choose whether government money is used for religious purposes, they can, in fact choose to avoid that entire round trip and give directly to Catholic charities.

Rendering the entire issue of government support for religious activities moot.

Quote:
Then lobby your lawmakers and tell them you don't wanna pay your taxes. Lobbying me is useless because I don't collect them, I won't fine you for not paying them and I won't garnish your wages for not paying them. Lobby to someone who can help you get out of paying your taxes.
I am not lobbying you, I am simply exposing you.
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  #23  
Old Feb 17, '12, 12:49 pm
Bubba Switzler Bubba Switzler is offline
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Default Re: Obama administration deletes religious service for student loan forgiveness

Quote:
Originally Posted by VeritasLuxMea View Post
This was a good decision by the administration. Why would government pay others in effect for proselytizing?
Why would Catholics want to pay the government for in effect proselytizing secularism?
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  #24  
Old Feb 17, '12, 12:53 pm
Rence Rence is offline
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Default Re: Obama administration deletes religious service for student loan forgiveness

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubba Switzler View Post
Of course, paying taxes does reduce monies available for other purposes. Every dollar that the government takes is a dollar unavailable to the care of the community.
It doesn't matter because one is still required to pay taxes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubba Switzler View Post
Contrary to your imputation that people can only choose whether government money is used for religious purposes, they can, in fact choose to avoid that entire round trip and give directly to Catholic charities.

Rendering the entire issue of government support for religious activities moot.
They still have to pay their taxes. They can't give to Catholic Charities *instead* of paying their taxes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubba Switzler View Post
I am not lobbying you, I am simply exposing you.
Exposing me for being a good citizen. Because I know paying taxes isn't a sin or contrary to the teachings of the Church. In fact, Jesus told us to pay our taxes.
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  #25  
Old Feb 17, '12, 12:54 pm
Rence Rence is offline
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Default Re: Obama administration deletes religious service for student loan forgiveness

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubba Switzler View Post
Why would Catholics want to pay the government for in effect proselytizing secularism?
They don't have to "want to", they are required to. Death and taxes.
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  #26  
Old Feb 17, '12, 12:56 pm
VeritasLuxMea VeritasLuxMea is online now
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Default Re: Obama administration deletes religious service for student loan forgiveness

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubba Switzler View Post
Why would Catholics want to pay the government for in effect proselytizing secularism?
Good question. I don't believe in taxes myself, but the Church leadership does. So I would recommend asking them!
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  #27  
Old Feb 17, '12, 1:00 pm
Bubba Switzler Bubba Switzler is offline
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Default Re: Obama administration deletes religious service for student loan forgiveness

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rence View Post
It doesn't matter because one is still required to pay taxes.

They still have to pay their taxes. They can't give to Catholic Charities *instead* of paying their taxes.

Exposing me for being a good citizen. Because I know paying taxes isn't a sin or contrary to the teachings of the Church. In fact, Jesus told us to pay our taxes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rence View Post
They don't have to "want to", they are required to. Death and taxes.
The Jews had no choice because they were subjects under Roman rule.

American Catholics do have a choice, though obviously you wish them to think otherwise.

Why do you seek to obfuscate? What are you hiding?
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  #28  
Old Feb 17, '12, 1:03 pm
Bubba Switzler Bubba Switzler is offline
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Default Re: Obama administration deletes religious service for student loan forgiveness

Quote:
Originally Posted by VeritasLuxMea View Post
Good question. I don't believe in taxes myself, but the Church leadership does. So I would recommend asking them!
I suspect they will be asking themselves over the next few decades as the secular state begins to close in on them.
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  #29  
Old Feb 17, '12, 1:12 pm
Rence Rence is offline
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Default Re: Obama administration deletes religious service for student loan forgiveness

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubba Switzler View Post
The Jews had no choice because they were subjects under Roman rule.

American Catholics do have a choice, though obviously you wish them to think otherwise.

Why do you seek to obfuscate? What are you hiding?
Ok, I truly don't understand what you think I'm trying to hide or what you're trying to say. What do you mean Catholics have a choice? A choice to do what? They don't have a choice when it comes to paying taxes because there are unpleasant consequences that will occur for not doing so: fines, jail time, garnishment of wages, the government taking your possessions to pay for unpaid taxes. It's a known fact that citizens are required to pay taxes. It's a known fact that the taxes we pay go towards all sorts of community services, regardless of whether we like it or not, or whether we use them or not. It's a known fact that refusing to pay one's taxes will lead to fines, jail time and garnishing of wages. It's also a known fact that not paying one's taxes as a means to protest will land one in jail. There's nothing to hide in anything I've said. If you don't like the laws regarding paying taxes, lobby your lawmakers. I don't mean to insult you, but with all due respect, being ill with me because you have to pay your taxes is really silly. But I guess being ill with me is just as effective as being ill with our politicians: the outcome is the same because you still have to pay taxes.
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  #30  
Old Feb 17, '12, 1:19 pm
mlund mlund is offline
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Default Re: Obama administration deletes religious service for student loan forgiveness

Actually, we do have a choice. We can vote against the taxes and spending that implement a Social Welfare State by means of the government. We should stop pretending that a secular (not really secular, but militantly atheist) central state overbearing on everyone is a proper expression of Christian Charity.

- Marty Lund
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