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  #31  
Old Feb 19, '12, 1:09 pm
Arizona Mike Arizona Mike is offline
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Default Re: There is no God. I want to die. Why should i not commit suicide?

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Originally Posted by Perplexity View Post
I'm not sure how these statistics are supposed to effect arguments for or against God. Do they weaken premises or something? Or maybe I've misunderstood their purpose.
It really doesn't prove anything, Perplexity, except that many atheists like "Science" but aren't very good at "Math." (And if it doesn't involve math, and probably an engineer, it's probably not "Science".)

Pointing to countries with high or low crime problems or imprisonment, or states with high or low levels of educational achievement, or high or low levels of economic success or social welfare, and then trying to ascribe them to the level of atheism in that country, is a mug's game. There are so many other factors to consider in any such calculation (history, criminal justice system, demographics, immigration, etc.) that any attempted correlation is meaningless.

And, atheism is in a minority in most every country. (Yes, even the Scandinavian ones.) The only countries where atheism is in a majority are not countries you would want to use to show any positive outcomes from atheism.

We can look at individual factors of welfare, and find some more useful correlations - medical metastudies routinely show a high correlation between religious belief and religiosity, and mental/physical/emotional health,lack of substance abuse, lack of depression and mental illness, higher sexual satisfaction, and so forth. We can also look at individual crimes of violence, and see a much higher proportion of atheists than one would expect from their rather low prevalence in society. That may be statistically relevant as well. It doesn't mean individual atheists are bad people, of course, but it can indicate some of the problems attendant on an atheist worldview.
  #32  
Old Feb 19, '12, 1:10 pm
Arizona Mike Arizona Mike is offline
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Default Re: There is no God. I want to die. Why should i not commit suicide?

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Originally Posted by tonyrey View Post
Waugh was notorious for his rudeness which rode roughshod over the feelings of others... He was hardly exemplary.
But, dang, the man could write.

How bad would he have been if he wasn't Catholic? (Kind of my point.)
  #33  
Old Feb 19, '12, 1:25 pm
tonyrey tonyrey is offline
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Default Re: There is no God. I want to die. Why should i not commit suicide?

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Originally Posted by Arizona Mike View Post
But, dang, the man could write.

How bad would he have been if he wasn't Catholic? (Kind of my point.)
I agree but how much more influential he would have been if he had been more considerate. He didn't exactly endear Catholicism to non-Catholics!
  #34  
Old Feb 19, '12, 1:41 pm
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prodigalson2011 prodigalson2011 is offline
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Default Re: There is no God. I want to die. Why should i not commit suicide?

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Originally Posted by Arizona Mike View Post
Atheists in Sweden are in the minority (23% believe in no god), putting them just behind the behind the even more godless Estonians and Czechs. 76% of Swedes believe either in God, a spirit, or a "life force," which puts them outside the pale of atheism.

North Korea, which is predominately atheist, has one of the lowest standards of living in the world.
Atheism is still far more prevalent in Sweden and the Netherlands than most places.

As for North Korea, it is important to note that that country is under the rule of a despotic, totalitarian nutjob whose government actively persecutes religious people. Atheism is pretty much de facto enforced, so most people probably toe the party line to keep themselves from being brutalized and imprisoned.

The same was true for a long time of Estonia and Czechoslovakia (I personally knew a man who fled Czechoslovakia to escape persecution), so again the tacit assent to atheism in those countries is probably largely artificial or indoctrinated through fear.

Cultural background is a very important consideration to be made in these observations.

http://spectator.org/archives/2010/1...ution-in-north

http://www.sodahead.com/united-state...stion-2391237/

http://nbrp.com/?p=4
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  #35  
Old Feb 19, '12, 2:45 pm
Simon123454321 Simon123454321 is offline
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Default Re: There is no God. I want to die. Why should i not commit suicide?

Depression is a condtion, when severe has a symtoms of hopelessness that may lead to suicidal ideation.

Leading a meaningless life is a choice. If the patient enjoys being depressed as many existential philosophers do, then he can select a lifestyle that promotes aloneness, avoid behaviors that would increase self-esteem, select a job that promotes monotony, etc.

Alternatively, if the patient is not happy with being depressed he could make lifestyle changes that may include taking medications that would help reduce the feelings of hopelessness and suicidal ideation and move towards health and hapiness.

I find that many of these posts confuse athiesm with the belief that there are no natural laws that exist in the universe at all. Do athiests not belive in gravity, objects in motion, interpersonal consequences for choices made, etc? Whether God exists or not, and I believe that he does, just using natural law works in these situations.

The bottom line is the patient is there because they want to live. If they wanted to die, they woudl be dead. It is not that hard to end ones life, yet the vast majority of people who even attempt to kill themselves, don't. They want to live, just do not see a vialbe way around whatever is in the way of happiness. If they can plot a path for how to achieve happiness, then the wish to end it all becomes a non-issue.
  #36  
Old Feb 19, '12, 3:58 pm
Qoeleth Qoeleth is offline
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Default Re: There is no God. I want to die. Why should i not commit suicide?

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Originally Posted by MindOverMatter2 View Post
I am your patient. You are my Atheist Psychologist.

There is no God. I want to die. Why should i not commit suicide?

Metaphysical naturalism is true. So why should i keep on breaking my back for very low wages, feeling unhappy, having no friends, no wife, and generally having a ****** non-fulfilling life.

Since death is inevitable, why put up with the humiliation on a daily basis, suffering from severe depression, taking pills to get by, when i could just simply cease to exist and therefore cease to struggle in this meaningless world?

The fear of death is the only thing keeping me alive.
If you don't have a parent, wife, children, etc. to whom you may cause suffering, there is no reason not commit suicide. Not only if you are depressed, but for everyone.

You could do what a lot of people do- find or construct a purpose in the pursuit of money, power, pleasure.

Or (even without 'believing') you could start to you interpret the wretchedness of your life in terms of Christ- to see a self-realisation in carrying one's proverbial Cross. To use a 'myth' as an interpretive device to construct meaning.
  #37  
Old Feb 19, '12, 7:08 pm
VeritasLuxMea VeritasLuxMea is offline
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Default Re: There is no God. I want to die. Why should i not commit suicide?

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Originally Posted by Arizona Mike View Post
Because certainly, the atheists, who comprise less than 7% of the American population(1), NEVER stoop to stereotyping Christians or their beliefs...

(1) http://www.gallup.com/poll/147887/Am...lieve-God.aspx
1. I am Catholic. (Pertains to one of your later posts, not this one that I'm quoting)

2. Percentage of atheists in the country has nothing to do with what we were discussing.

3. Whether or not some atheists are guilty of the same behavior (stereotyping) is, as you're aware, inconsequential.

4. I have no problem with you "attacking my beliefs" (as you put it in a later post), so I hope you similarly have no problem with me doing likewise as regards your belief that atheists are "angry" people.
  #38  
Old Feb 19, '12, 9:20 pm
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ThinkingSapien ThinkingSapien is offline
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Default Re: There is no God. I want to die. Why should i not commit suicide?

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Originally Posted by Perplexity View Post
The positions in normative ethics rarely make mention of naturalism or theism.[...]

For example, if the person is married and has kids, I'd try and make the case that he has a duty to them[...]
I've had friends that in the past were considering bringing about an end to their life to bring about an end to their suffering. In all cases I ended up appealing to their connection to loved ones as temporary motivation for postponing their demise while the source of the suffering was addressed. I'm not a mental health specialist, but I did get the assistance of one for one of the cases. He was Jewish, the friend was a non-denominational Christian, and I don't practice any religion.That didn't cause any conflicts in trying to help this person.

In another case from years ago a friend wanted to just die so that she didn't have to go through chemo and radiation treatment. She's Catholic, and like the earlier mentioned case connections to loved ones to get her to postpone action. That's not the same as changing her mind on the matter though. But it was enough to get her to the point where the treatment could be reduced so that she found life more tolerable. I'm glad to say she is relatively fine now. Had the need for chemo lasted long enough I think her tolerance for suffering would have been exhausted and it would have been a loosing battle.
  #39  
Old Feb 20, '12, 5:39 am
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ThinkingSapien ThinkingSapien is offline
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Default Re: There is no God. I want to die. Why should i not commit suicide?

Adding onto what I posted earlier, on the drive into work I was talking to a friend and ran a similar scenario by her. "If some one you knew was suffering and decided that he or she wanted to end it all how would you respond to that person."

I thought I was submitting a hypothetical question to her, but she is dealing with the situation right now. I know she is a non-denominational Christian and that her friend is also a Christian (not sure what denomination, though I know he's not Catholic). She's also been reminding the friend of how his death would impact loved ones. But she doesn't see that as a long term solution either. This person's conditions have been continually worsening over the past several years and her concern is that if things don't turn around he may loose the ability to cope with what's going on. She said the friend acknowledged that it was selfish to want to end ones life. But it seems that the continual pressure is causing more weight to be given to self consideration than to consideration of the friends and loved ones.
  #40  
Old Feb 20, '12, 5:55 am
Perplexity Perplexity is offline
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Default Re: There is no God. I want to die. Why should i not commit suicide?

I see ThinkingSapien, those are very difficult situations to be in. I hope it all works out for the best.

I don't believe that suicide is per se wrong. It seems to me that it's wrong only when it's in situations where duties to others like spouses or children (etc.) would be neglected. But, if you're in no such obligations, it seems to me people have the right to end their life if they wish.
  #41  
Old Feb 20, '12, 6:19 am
vz71 vz71 is offline
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Default Re: There is no God. I want to die. Why should i not commit suicide?

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Originally Posted by sedonaman View Post
Are you sure you aren't trying to solve a temporary problem with a permanent solution?
Even if you are, so what?

When we kill a fly, isn't that likewise a permanent solution to a temporary problem?

What makes it wrong to use a permanent solution on any given temporary problem?
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  #42  
Old Feb 20, '12, 6:19 am
BOSS10L BOSS10L is offline
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Default Re: There is no God. I want to die. Why should i not commit suicide?

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Originally Posted by Arizona Mike View Post
Because certainly, the atheists, who comprise less than 7% of the American population(1), NEVER stoop to stereotyping Christians or their beliefs...

(1) http://www.gallup.com/poll/147887/Am...lieve-God.aspx
I find it interesting (if not telling) that as education levels rose, so did the percentages of those who claimed no belief in God.
  #43  
Old Feb 20, '12, 6:56 am
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ThinkingSapien ThinkingSapien is offline
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Default Re: There is no God. I want to die. Why should i not commit suicide?

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Originally Posted by Perplexity View Post
It seems to me that it's wrong only when it's in situations where duties to others like spouses or children (etc.) would be neglected. But, if you're in no such obligations, it seems to me people have the right to end their life if they wish.
I am heavily biased against suicide, but I can't say with absolute certainty that there is always another way. Just as continuing to live can be motivated by considerations for loved ones deciding to die can also be from the same consideration; (take a DNR discussion that a parent might have with a child as an example).

This thread seems to be for highlighting a supposed difference in how some one that doesn't hold beliefs in any gods would deal with the situation when compared to some one that holds a belief of Yahweh. I don't think there are going to be many (if any) significant points of differences. This is influenced by my personal experiences and experiences that others have shared with me (including a social worker that worked in a hospice). So I find my thoughts to to range from being compatible to in agreement with your expressed thoughts on the issue.
  #44  
Old Feb 20, '12, 7:19 am
fred conty fred conty is offline
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Default Re: There is no God. I want to die. Why should i not commit suicide?

Atheism is a belief not an absolute. That means there is wiggle room to think about maybe, just maybe I'm wrong.
So that is the opening. Work on the maybe. Here is one approach.

The unbeliever will ask me this question, "suppose christian you are wrong and there is no afterlife, then look at all you have been missing out on all your life." I would say, "ok, I missed it, but when we are dead, nobody misses anything and you and I equal in that forever." However I would say, "But just supposing you are wrong. Then you will have misery to suffer for the rest of eternity while I am enomously happy because there is a God who does reward and punish. With those odds, Las Vegas wouldn't take your bet. The risk/reward ratio are just too high. Eternity for 80 years."

Just a thought.
  #45  
Old Feb 20, '12, 7:30 am
vz71 vz71 is offline
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Default Re: There is no God. I want to die. Why should i not commit suicide?

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Originally Posted by fred conty View Post
With those odds, Las Vegas wouldn't take your bet. The risk/reward ratio are just too high.
One would think so.
But we see examples every day of people taking this bet.
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