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  #16  
Old Feb 20, '12, 9:59 am
L piperatus L piperatus is offline
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Default Re: Catholicism or Orthodoxy?

Hi Credo ergo sum,

I think you should expand your query to the Oriental Orthodox Churches, various schismatic Eastern Orthodox bodies not in communion with each other, such as Old Believers who regard the new forms of Eastern Orthodoxy as heretic, Old Calendar EO Churches who regard the New Calendar EOC as heretics, and do the same about Catholics - e.g. how about SSPX (Society of Saint Pius X) and sedevacantist Catholic Bishops who refuse to come into communion with Pope Benedict XVI, believing that he is not a legitimate Pope, and that the bulk of the Catholic Church has fallen into heresy?

In other words, certain sedevacantist Catholic Bishops may believe that THEY are the true Church, and that the Pope Benedict XVI, as well as the rest of the Bishops in communion with him, are heretics.

Also, ROCOR believed as recently as 2006 that the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople, the Greek EOC, the Antiochian EOC, and so on are heretics because they adopted the New Calendar (Gregorian Calendar). According to ROCOR, only those EOC like ROCOR itself, the Serb EOC, and a minority of Greek, Romanian, and Bulgarian Bishops represent the true Church, those whom rejected the innovation of the New (Gregorian) Calendar, and stayed with the Old (Julian) Calendar. The Russian EOC - Moscow Patriarchate healed its own schism with ROCOR in 2006, but priests who came from ROCOR still insisted after the MP-ROCOR reunion that New Calendar EOC are heretics (the MP is also Old Calendar, but ROCOR broke communion with the MP around 1927 because ROCOR believed the MP fell into apostasy under Moscow Patriarch Sergius in 1927, when the MP adopted communism as an official stance). Same thing about Greek EOC Bishops who represent the "Matthewite" and "Florinist" movements in the Greek EOC. They earnestly believe that they (Matthewites, Florinists) represent the true Orthodox Church since they still use the Old Calendar and since they reject the heresy of the New Calendar, and they refuse to commune with any EOC whatsoever who transitioned to the New Calendar.

These questions are not trivial, and they must be addressed, if you are trying to find "where is Jesus Christ's true Church?"
  #17  
Old Feb 20, '12, 10:07 am
Credo ergo sum Credo ergo sum is offline
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Originally Posted by L piperatus View Post
Hi Credo ergo sum,

I think you should expand your query to the Oriental Orthodox Churches, various schismatic Eastern Orthodox bodies not in communion with each other, such as Old Believers who regard the new forms of Eastern Orthodoxy as heretic, Old Calendar EO Churches who regard the New Calendar EOC as heretics, and do the same about Catholics - e.g. how about SSPX (Society of Saint Pius X) and sedevacantist Catholic Bishops who refuse to come into communion with Pope Benedict XVI, believing that he is not a legitimate Pope, and that the bulk of the Catholic Church has fallen into heresy?

In other words, certain sedevacantist Catholic Bishops may believe that THEY are the true Church, and that the Pope Benedict XVI, as well as the rest of the Bishops in communion with him, are heretics.



These questions are not trivial, and they must be addressed, if you are trying to find "where is Jesus Christ's true Church?"
As for the Oriental Orthodox, they don't accept the Council of Chalcedon and I don't think that miaphysitism can be justified except through St. Cyril's words (μία φύσις τοῦ θεοῦ λόγου σεσαρκωμένη), but nonetheless I think they have a beautiful liturgy and history. And I heard that their reunification with the EO is not that far off, some even say within our lifetime or at least the next. Besides, the current Miaphysite churches didn't come into being before Severus organized the various non-Chalcedonian groups in the early 6th century.

The ROCOR and the Old Believers are for the greatest part back in the Orthodox Communion. And I don't see how little schismatic groups like the SSPX could ever lay a claim more credible to be the Church as the local reformed church can.

Last edited by Credo ergo sum; Feb 20, '12 at 10:22 am.
  #18  
Old Feb 20, '12, 10:22 am
L piperatus L piperatus is offline
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Originally Posted by Credo ergo sum View Post
Many of its laity, yes. Only recently a Catholic parish in the south of the country went into schism because they wanted to be "a church without dogma's", openly did gay marriages and such. They didn´t have a priest since 5 years and just roleplayed the Mass, which the bishop didn´t really like it and he intervened after 5 (!) years, causing 80% to form their new church.
This further underscores the paramount question: How do you know who is right and who is wrong, when schisms occur?

To me, the various schisms such as Catholic (obedient to the Pope) - Catholic (in dissent with the Pope, in favor of gay marriage and other stuff) - (Old Calendar) Eastern Orthodox - (New Calendar) Eastern Orthodox - Oriental Orthodox, all lead back to the fundamental question:

How do you know which fraction is "true" and which is "heretic", when a schism occurs among validly ordained Bishops and Priests?

The schism can be caused by disagreement about the nature of Christ (see Oriental Orthodox schism), about the filioque (Great schism of 1054 between Cath and EO Churches), about using two fingers only for the sign of the cross versus using three fingers (the Old Believer schism within the EOC of Russia), about using the Old Calendar versus transitioning to the New (Gregorian) Calendar (Old Calendar - New Calendar schism within the EOC), or about accepting versus rejecting gay marriage (contemporary schism within the Catholic Church). Schisms can be caused by various disagreements, but you ultimately always have to go back to the same question, and andswer the same question:

How do you know which fraction is "true" and which is "heretic", when a schism occurs among validly ordained Bishops and Priests?

Of course, as a Catholic, my answer is this: where is Peter's successor the Pope (Bishop of Rome), there is the true Church.
  #19  
Old Feb 20, '12, 10:31 am
SmallCcatholic SmallCcatholic is offline
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Default Re: Catholicism or Orthodoxy?

This thread is reminding me of the first chapter in 1st Corinthians.
  #20  
Old Feb 20, '12, 10:36 am
Credo ergo sum Credo ergo sum is offline
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Originally Posted by L piperatus View Post
This further underscores the paramount question: How do you know who is right and who is wrong, when schisms occur?

To me, the various schisms such as Catholic (obedient to the Pope) - Catholic (in dissent with the Pope, in favor of gay marriage and other stuff) - (Old Calendar) Eastern Orthodox - (New Calendar) Eastern Orthodox - Oriental Orthodox, all lead back to the fundamental question:

How do you know which fraction is "true" and which is "heretic", when a schism occurs among validly ordained Bishops and Priests?

The schism can be caused by disagreement about the nature of Christ (see Oriental Orthodox schism), about the filioque (Great schism of 1054 between Cath and EO Churches), about using two fingers only for the sign of the cross versus using three fingers (the Old Believer schism within the EOC of Russia), about using the Old Calendar versus transitioning to the New (Gregorian) Calendar (Old Calendar - New Calendar schism within the EOC), or about accepting versus rejecting gay marriage (contemporary schism within the Catholic Church). Schisms can be caused by various disagreements, but you ultimately always have to go back to the same question, and andswer the same question:

How do you know which fraction is "true" and which is "heretic", when a schism occurs among validly ordained Bishops and Priests? S

Of course, as a Catholic, my answer is this: where is Peter's successor the Pope (Bishop of Rome), there is the true Church.
I must confess that you have a valid point. But then again, what if there would sit another Honorius on the Papal Throne openly confessing monothelitism? Just curious.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SmallCcatholic View Post
This thread is reminding me of the first chapter in 1st Corinthians.
Yes, schism and heresy are nasty things
  #21  
Old Feb 20, '12, 10:42 am
Jacob50 Jacob50 is offline
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Default Re: Catholicism or Orthodoxy?

4. Papal Infallibilty and Papal Supremecy
From the Church History I read it seems to me that, especially in the first millenium, the Pope wasn't an 'ecclesiastical dictator' (excuse me for the term) but that the Church was governed with councils, local as well as Ecumenical ones. The Fifth Ecumenical Council was even held in opposition to the Pope and a former pope, the heretic Honorius, was even anathemised, because he confessed, in an official letter concerning faith and morals, to the Patriarch of Constantinople, the monothelite heresy. The second Ecumenical council was presided by St. Meletius of Antioch, a bishop in schism from Rome at the time. In a huge fight between St. Cyprian of Carthage and the Pope, St. Cyprian called in the East and won the fight and the list goes on and on.

And if there is Papal Infallibilty, why then was there the need to hold the 7 Ecumenical Councils if an ex cathedra pronouncement of the Pope would have sufficed? Why the 4th Ecumenical Council if the Tome of Leo was already written years earlier? It seems to me that both Papal Supremecy and Infallibilty or Universal Jurisdiction were never universally accepted in the in the pre-schism Church, but please, correct me if I'm wrong, for this are only some of my impressions.
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  #22  
Old Feb 20, '12, 10:52 am
SmallCcatholic SmallCcatholic is offline
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"Yes, schism and heresy are nasty things "
Actually I was looking at the bickering focused on the man rather than the trust/faith in Christ...The gospel is still getting preached and men our daily committing their lives to Christ and will be till the time of the gentiles is complete..Here is the sad thing..I have been in this world for almost 62 years(42 years in Christ) and never had one Catholic or Orthodox christian want to talk to me about Christ and His plan of salvation...It was always evangelical christians and jw"s. We are to be ready in season and out to share that message of hope that lies within us..Sorry, off topic
  #23  
Old Feb 20, '12, 10:58 am
L piperatus L piperatus is offline
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Default Re: Catholicism or Orthodoxy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Credo ergo sum View Post
But then again, what if there would sit another Honorius on the Papal Throne openly confessing monothelitism? Just curious.
I think that's an excellent question and there were whole threads dedicated solely to Pope Honorius here at CAF.

I hope someone more educated than myself will chime in.

I've read somewhere that Pope Honorius did not teach monothelitism, but failed to crack down on those who did - or something like that. Unfortunately I can't locate that article, that's why I hope someone else will pick up this point.
  #24  
Old Feb 20, '12, 11:05 am
Credo ergo sum Credo ergo sum is offline
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“We find that these documents [including those of Honorius] are quite foreign to the apostolic dogmas, to the declarations of the holy Councils, and to all the accepted Fathers, and that they follow the false teachings of the heretics…there shall be expelled from the holy Church of God and anathematized Honorius who was some time Pope of Old Rome, because of what we found written by him to Sergius, that in all respects he followed his view and confirmed his impious doctrines…To Honorius, the heretic, anathema!… [The devil] has actively employed them [including Honorius]…we slew them [including Honorius] with anathema, as lapsed from the faith and as sinners, in the morning outside the camp of the tabernacle of God.”
This is what the 6th Ecumenical Council had to say about it. Don't know however if a letter to another patriarch counts as an ex cathedra pronouncement. But if I were to accept Catholicism, which has a good chance of happening, I think I need to be able to fully affirm its dogma's.
  #25  
Old Feb 20, '12, 11:09 am
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Nine_Two Nine_Two is offline
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Default Re: Catholicism or Orthodoxy?

I'm just going to answer the headings here.
Quote:
1. Liturgical innovations
This shouldn't be an issue. Even the Orthodox Divine Liturgy has changed over the years. If you make an issue out of this, or base your decision around it, your faith may end up being very shaky, especially as you learn about these innovations.

Quote:
2. Liberalism
While it may be true that there are more prominent Liberal Catholics than Liberal Orthodox, they do still exist. Orthodoxy probably allows for more liberalism than Catholicism given its dislike of dogma.

Quote:
3. The Filioque.
I have many issues with the filioque, that I'm not going to get into here. Needless to say it, and the logical extensions of it, played a role in my personal choice of Orthodoxy.

Quote:
4. Papal Infallibilty and Papal Supremecy
I agree with everything you wrote.

Quote:

5. Development of Doctrine and Scholasticism.

There has been some development of doctrine in the East, but the tendency is to shy away from it. Dogma should only be pronounced in the face of heresy, etc.
Reason can certainly play a part in the faith, but I agree, applying it to the Holy Mysteries just can't work.

Quote:
6. The replacement of the Septuagint with the Hebrew OT since St. Jerome
This was another (though minor) issue I had. While the texts are largely the same (baring the repression of certain books which logically came about through this), the abandonment of the traditional books for the versions of, what was by the time a different religion, troubles me.
Quote:
Orthodox Church:


1. Divided
While it is true that there are divisions on certain issues, these issues do not detract from the faith itself. The two examples you mentioned are examples of divisions that tend to be between individuals, not churches, and we are free to take the position which we want, making sure to stay away from heresy (such as being so Ecumenical that one wanders into the sphere of latitudalism).
The Orthodox Church certainly is Catholic, containing the whole of the faith.

Quote:
2. Nationalism, phyletism etc.
I absolutely agree with you on this. For the most part the Orthodox Church recognizes this is a problem. There are efforts to solve it - though it is a big problem and these efforts may take some time to come to fruition.

Quote:
3. Loss of the Pope.
And yet we've been able to maintain the faith without the Bishop of Rome. It is a sad loss, but not a mortal loss.
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  #26  
Old Feb 20, '12, 11:23 am
Credo ergo sum Credo ergo sum is offline
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I'm just going to answer the headings here.
This shouldn't be an issue. Even the Orthodox Divine Liturgy has changed over the years. If you make an issue out of this, or base your decision around it, your faith may end up being very shaky, especially as you learn about these innovations.
Let me formulate it differently: I don't think guitar music in the liturgy, or football Mass like was done here a few years ago, are very appropriate.

Somewhere I wrote that there is a Latin Vatican II Mass where I live, and the only problem I have with that one is basically the filioque which is sung during the Credo III
  #27  
Old Feb 20, '12, 11:27 am
SmallCcatholic SmallCcatholic is offline
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Let me formulate it differently: I don't think guitar music in the liturgy, or football Mass like was done here a few years ago, are very appropriate
Is it stringed instruments or just amplifiers ?
  #28  
Old Feb 20, '12, 11:59 am
Credo ergo sum Credo ergo sum is offline
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Is it stringed instruments or just amplifiers ?
Instruments as a whole actually, maybe with the exception of an organ to aid the choir.
  #29  
Old Feb 20, '12, 12:02 pm
SmallCcatholic SmallCcatholic is offline
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Instruments as a whole actually, maybe with the exception of an organ to aid the choir.
I wonder if you would have enjoyed being with David or the OT worshippers..
  #30  
Old Feb 20, '12, 12:07 pm
Credo ergo sum Credo ergo sum is offline
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Is it stringed instruments or just amplifiers ?
I think it is because I love Byzantine/Gregorian/Old Roman chant so much and would love to preserve it against contemporary music
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