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  #31  
Old Feb 20, '12, 3:19 pm
Daralharb Daralharb is offline
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Default Re: Why is the USCCB so big on women working?

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Originally Posted by LisaA View Post
Good point. I think there were some sincerely well intentioned people who saw this as giving the same kind of freedom to women that the Civil Rights movement provided to blacks. Women got freedom all right...freedom to kill their babies, freedom to be exposed to STDs, to be used by irresponsible men who were never held to a higher standard and the freedom to be tossed aside like a used tissue. The children are the casualties of this war. We should ask better of both sexes but it's not politically correct is it?

Lisa
Is this a charitable emoticon? Rude? Gender-neutral?
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  #32  
Old Feb 20, '12, 4:06 pm
manualman manualman is offline
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Default Re: Why is the USCCB so big on women working?

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..In modern times, we have had economic success to the point where mother was able to stay at home and stir the stew ....
Ignorant and insulting characterization of the lives of stay home moms! I happen to know my wife would laugh heartily at this description, right before knocking your teeth out.

Women have always worked, whether at home or away. But it has only been in the last 70 years or so that "working" has meant getting in the car and leaving ones children with a stranger for 9.5 hours a day. IMO, NOT a healthy development.

Sure, there were situations of grinding poverty in which that may have been the case even in the past. But those were still 'modern' inventions. Prior to the industrial revolution the idea of a sweatshop didn't exist. If you worked in a sweatshop back then it was either yours or you were the apprentice!
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  #33  
Old Feb 20, '12, 4:20 pm
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Allegra Allegra is offline
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Default Re: Why is the USCCB so big on women working?

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Originally Posted by Daralharb View Post
Why, I wonder, do women feel this crazy need to have a job, any job, when it leads to nothing but more stress or cost to offset the stress?

I'm talking good of society and family, feelings aren't even in the top 3. And all I'm reading is feelings and examples flailing to grasp a root.

Excellent, you were self-taught(?*) on life skills. *That's a parent's job. My mom, the stay at home one, took me in the laundry room and said, "here's how you wash your own clothes, don't break my washer", and went to doing other things with her newly open minutes. Dad, similarly, said, "this is how you do X, don't break my tools", and expected me to be self-sufficient by following instructions.

Per the stay-at-home concubines (they certainly aren't acting like mothers!), that's obviously bad parenting. I'm not espousing bad parenting, so, what does this have to do with anything pertinent other than the failings of a woman to do her parental duties? Same type of person is the reason affirmative-action hired Federal employees are such a poor example of workers- almost impossible to get fired. The stay-at-home mom knows she can't get fired per se, so, it is easier to become lazy. Friends are easier to hang out with than children who must submit to parental authority, so they make friends of their children and then wonder why they have smart mouths and/or are outright disrespectful.

Per the OP title, I'd say this: the USCCB isn't big or little on women working. I doubt they have an opinion in the extreme of either way. However, the USCCB cannot, in its PC-right mind, come out and say women shouldn't work in general/at all (nor am I saying this), as the actual (complex) social/moral teaching on such an issue would become so convoluted in controversy that pretty soon, sensational headlines such as "Perpetual Slaves!? USCCB Hates Women!" would appear. If 100, or even 50 years ago, you heard someone say a mother should be at home, the response would likely result in a comment analogous to the obvious lack of fecal matter in the direction of Sherlock. Now? The culture has changed, and with it, the family.

I will say this: Dad's shed didn't get burned down when mom was at home.
What the example of the inattentive stay-at-home mom's was meant to illustrate is that fact that a good mom is a good mom regardless of whether or not she has a job, just as a bad mom is a bad mom regardless of whether or not she stays at home. While I can agree that there has been an unfortunate decline in family life of late, I don't see how you've managed to come to the conclusion that it's because the mother is working a job. A precursory look at the life of the average American child will tell you that it isn't a lack of a mother that is causing the problem. It's the lack of a father. How many children do you know who don't have their mother with them? Probably very few. But over half of the nation's children are living in homes without their biological father. People seem to think that all a father has to do to fullfill his obligation is hand mom a check once a month. THis attitude is even demonstrated in some households where the parents are still married to each other. "You can take the children to the birthday party, dear, I'm going to play golf." If you ask me, this is the real root of the problem.

As to your question about why women want a job, well there's the obvious reason that they think their children might get hungry sometime. Assuming there is enough money from their husband's job that it isn't entirely neccesary, they may want to maintain a career in case their husband suddenly loses income. (For example, if he works in a career that sees frequent layoffs of decreases in business.) Perhaps, her husband has a calling to a profession that doesn't provide the necessary income or benefits needed to run a household. (Like a Catholic school Spanish teacher, a Deacon, or an employee of a non-for-profit organization that does important work but can't afford to pay very much.) Presuming that there is no need whatsoever for her to work, there is also the possibility that she has a calling to a certain profession. Perhaps she feels that her work is making the world a better place.

And for what it's worth, I didn't really think you were being rude... just very, very wrong. Also, I don't know how you expect to have this discusion without emotion, since we are trying to determine the emotional value of a mother who stays at home all day as opposed to one who works. (I'm presuming that you are with me on that at least and you aren't one of these nuts who manages to operate on the delusion that even a notable percentage of children of working mothers go around dirty, naked, illiterate, and unfed.)
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  #34  
Old Feb 20, '12, 4:25 pm
LisaA LisaA is offline
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Default Re: Why is the USCCB so big on women working?

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Originally Posted by Allegra View Post
Because a one-working-parent-family is a recent development of the modern world and only exists in the wealthiest nations. In agricultural societies, women worked their farms along with their husbands. In industrial communities, children stayed home with older children, disabled aunties and grandmothers, or went to work along side their mothers in the factory. Non-working mothers are the creation of the upper class and upper middle class. Poor families have always required both parents to work in order to make ends meet. In modern times, we have had economic success to the point where mother was able to stay at home and stir the stew while dad went to the office, but this is not the norm throughout history.
Honestly do not think that women working outside the home was the norm in the past. Certainly young, unmarried women often worked. But once married, and certainly after having children, women transitioned to being homemakers or some kind of work in the home. I'm from a family of career women but until my mom's generation they only worked until marriage.

My mother always worked but trust me, it was an anomoly in the 1950s thru 1970s. The only mothers who worked while I was growing up were from broken homes with absent fathers. Some women went back after the children were in school all day and others had work at home. One of my babysitters took in ironing and while we roamed around the neighborhood she sat at the mangle ironing men's white shirts. But the vast majority of my schoolmates had stay at home moms. Everything was a 'one" except they almost all had two parents...married to each other what a concept! They also lived with one car, one TV set, one two week vacation at the beach every year and shared one bathroom. Homes were a fraction of the current size. Dinner out was the church spaghetti feed. Women didn't 'need' to work with that kind of lifestyle. To some extent we have created the 'need' for both parents to work what with large homes, electronics, multiple cars, dinners out several nights a week, children's activities. Broken homes and single (never married) mothers have also contributed to the number of women in the workplace. Intact families cost a lot less to maintain than two sets of parents maintaining two homes.

As an economic and social unit, I really don't think you can beat the traditional family structure and quite honestly, doing a good job of raising responsible citizens seems like a far higher calling than the vast majority of jobs.
Lisa
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  #35  
Old Feb 20, '12, 4:30 pm
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Allegra Allegra is offline
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Default Re: Why is the USCCB so big on women working?

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Originally Posted by manualman View Post
Ignorant and insulting characterization of the lives of stay home moms! I happen to know my wife would laugh heartily at this description, right before knocking your teeth out.

Women have always worked, whether at home or away. But it has only been in the last 70 years or so that "working" has meant getting in the car and leaving ones children with a stranger for 9.5 hours a day. IMO, NOT a healthy development.

Sure, there were situations of grinding poverty in which that may have been the case even in the past. But those were still 'modern' inventions. Prior to the industrial revolution the idea of a sweatshop didn't exist. If you worked in a sweatshop back then it was either yours or you were the apprentice!
I'm sorry if you found "stirring the stew" to be demeaning in some way. I happen to like stew. It certainly wasn't my intention to suggest that stew-making was all stay-at-home mom's do. I'm aware of the fact that they have many things to do. I'm also aware that the same things get done in the households of working mothers as well. I don't think your charactorization of the situation of most working mothers is fair at all. First of all, almost no one leaves their children with a stranger. Most people go to great efforts to make certain that their children are getting good care. Many parents of very small children have family members or close friends who watch their children. Still others alternate their work schedules with their spouses so that the children don't have to be left with anyone, or perhaps only have to be babysat a couple of days a week. Of course, many families are able to make it so a parent is at home when the children are too young for school, and then both return to work when the children are school age. There are many alternatives to institutionalizing an infant in a daycare center.
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  #36  
Old Feb 20, '12, 4:37 pm
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Allegra Allegra is offline
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Default Re: Why is the USCCB so big on women working?

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Originally Posted by Daralharb View Post
And stuff like this happens with the truly twisted career chasers:

http://www.pe.com/local-news/riversi...-neighbors.ece
I certainly hope you are being tongue-in-cheek and not presenting this story as evidence of your claim. The woman in this story isn't acting this way because she's over-concerned about her job! This woman is a nut! She is an abusive tyrant who gets her jollies off of torturing her little girl. This is no more a reasonable representation of a woman who is too taken up with her job than the lady who murdered all her children in the bathtub is a reasonable representation of stay-at-home moms.
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  #37  
Old Feb 20, '12, 4:45 pm
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Default Re: Why is the USCCB so big on women working?

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Originally Posted by LisaA View Post
Honestly do not think that women working outside the home was the norm in the past. Certainly young, unmarried women often worked. But once married, and certainly after having children, women transitioned to being homemakers or some kind of work in the home. I'm from a family of career women but until my mom's generation they only worked until marriage.

My mother always worked but trust me, it was an anomoly in the 1950s thru 1970s. The only mothers who worked while I was growing up were from broken homes with absent fathers. Some women went back after the children were in school all day and others had work at home. One of my babysitters took in ironing and while we roamed around the neighborhood she sat at the mangle ironing men's white shirts. But the vast majority of my schoolmates had stay at home moms. Everything was a 'one" except they almost all had two parents...married to each other what a concept! They also lived with one car, one TV set, one two week vacation at the beach every year and shared one bathroom. Homes were a fraction of the current size. Dinner out was the church spaghetti feed. Women didn't 'need' to work with that kind of lifestyle. To some extent we have created the 'need' for both parents to work what with large homes, electronics, multiple cars, dinners out several nights a week, children's activities. Broken homes and single (never married) mothers have also contributed to the number of women in the workplace. Intact families cost a lot less to maintain than two sets of parents maintaining two homes.

As an economic and social unit, I really don't think you can beat the traditional family structure and quite honestly, doing a good job of raising responsible citizens seems like a far higher calling than the vast majority of jobs.
Lisa
Historically speaking, that is not the case. The 50's saw the rise of enough of a middle class that we could say "most woman didn't work". Even then, woman from lower socio-economic situation worked. If they lived in the country, they did farm work. If they lived in the city, they cleaned houses and worked on factory lines. Prior to that era, it was only the upper-middle class and wealthiest families that could afford for the mother not to work at all. Keep in mind that many families owned family businesses. I suppose you could argue that the woman in those cases weren't getting into cars and driving away, but they weren't in the house watching the children either.
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  #38  
Old Feb 20, '12, 4:49 pm
Daralharb Daralharb is offline
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Default Re: Why is the USCCB so big on women working?

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And for what it's worth, I didn't really think you were being rude... just very, very wrong. Also, I don't know how you expect to have this discusion without emotion, since we are trying to determine the emotional value of a mother who stays at home all day as opposed to one who works. (I'm presuming that you are with me on that at least and you aren't one of these nuts who manages to operate on the delusion that even a notable percentage of children of working mothers go around dirty, naked, illiterate, and unfed.)
Allegra,

I would just like to say thank you for the back up on the "rude" comment.

I didn't see where I was being rude either.

Per emotion, emotion is good and is ALWAYS present in any rhetoric, but the emotion cannot rule the argument. Nor can it serve the argument via one-off examples of a single saint, and to be honest (we've both done this), anecdotes. Though the personal anecdotal things can certainly provide a background of information to understand the POV.

Historical trends, associated reasons for the flux in those trends, etc... that would be more interesting than everyone's personal story about being a latchkey kid or coming home to mom.

Fromm's ideas on the encouragement/rise of Matriarchal societal shift IS to bring about a less rational society as in this whole scheme, while society is being feminized, morality is crumbling. The Patriarchal society is what Fromm identified as leading to the Capitalist/Bourgeois societal model: http://www.uta.edu/huma/illuminations/kell8.htm

I'm well aware of the difference between correcting prejudice and thrusting society on its head via the "emotional appeal" of correcting prejudice for ulterior means. I've been involved in planning both on multiple levels of locality. We do it every day, actually. The means used to accomplish this, as we see now, are bearing bad fruit. Socialism is seeping in via the emotional and irrational society we now have. We have a feminine society and Karl Marx loooooooves us, so we shall soon elope against the will of our Fathers.

Thing thing is, women ARE very capable of doing MANY things. I hope you don't think I'm some low-browed insurance commercial reject. The issue of "feeding her kids", if she is still married and husband has a job, really means, "learn to live within means better".

Most Americans, almost all in fact, do NOT live within their means. They live above their means through the smokescreen illusion of credit, and thus, debt.

We're not addressing specific examples of a single portion of society. We're addressing society.

Now back to Lisa to say the same thing and not get yelled at for it.
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  #39  
Old Feb 20, '12, 4:50 pm
LucyLight LucyLight is offline
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Default Re: Why is the USCCB so big on women working?

I can't even read all of the posts on this thread because they are infuriating. Women are multi-talented and have and are making great contributions to the workforce. Its insulting to say that women should not work outside of the home implying that their contributions are unneccessary. Its equaly insulting to belittle stay at home moms. I certainly don't have it all figured out but some posters arrogantly think they do.

People love to knock feminism. Feminism is the belief that men and women are equal (wow what a crazy demonic idea). Feminism gave women the right to vote and equal pay for equal work. It brought us radical ideas like women are as smart as men and you can't rape your wife.

The sexual revoloution on the other hand seems to be the root of many of the problems that people are blaming on feminism. And the blame for that can be equally spread around.
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  #40  
Old Feb 20, '12, 5:04 pm
Daralharb Daralharb is offline
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Default Re: Why is the USCCB so big on women working?

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Originally Posted by LucyLight View Post
I can't even read all of the posts on this thread because they are infuriating. Women are multi-talented and have and are making great contributions to the workforce. Its insulting to say that women should not work outside of the home implying that their contributions are unneccessary. Its equaly insulting to belittle stay at home moms. I certainly don't have it all figured out but some posters arrogantly think they do.

People love to knock feminism. Feminism is the belief that men and women are equal (wow what a crazy demonic idea). Feminism gave women the right to vote and equal pay for equal work. It brought us radical ideas like women are as smart as men and you can't rape your wife.

The sexual revoloution on the other hand seems to be the root of many of the problems that people are blaming on feminism. And the blame for that can be equally spread around.
So basically, I, a man, and others, men, and women, can read these posts and come up with retorts which at least address the posts... and you can't because it stirs up "feelings". See my post about Fromm's idea of how to irrationalize and emotionalize society via feminization and the down-talking of masculinity.

Feminism is the idea that men and women are equal? No it's not. If that was the case, feminists wouldn't push such insane definitions of rape like "if you feel regret the day later, it's rape" and "if you were drunk, and he was drunk, it was rape"... are men somehow impervious to the effects of alcohol? Does a drunk woman get off of DUI charges since she couldn't consent to driving anyway?

If women and men are equal, I'm the Duke of Earl. We are complimentary, not "equal". We are only fulfilled IN each other through complimentary aspects, not equal aspects. Eve was created because Adam needed a mate. She wasn't created so Eve would have a scrapbooking partner, nor so Adam would have a friend to burp and drink beer with. They were to become one flesh. ONLY in this relationship can men and women be equal by fulfilling and being fulfilled in that which they lack, and together can create that which they are. A woman without a husband has to take on male attributes if she is a mother. A man without a wife has to learn femininity in certain regards, if he is a father.

Women do not receive equal pay for equal work, still, except for minimum wage jobs in which the lowest common denominator is a hilarious way to look at things. Yay! We are able to be equal at the bottom!

The sexual revolution is inextricably linked to feminism and the fall of morality. Can't have one without the other, or else you just have mass rape.

In the spirit of feminism, equality, and solidarity: Don't hate me bro!
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  #41  
Old Feb 20, '12, 5:07 pm
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Allegra Allegra is offline
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Default Re: Why is the USCCB so big on women working?

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Originally Posted by LucyLight View Post
I can't even read all of the posts on this thread because they are infuriating. Women are multi-talented and have and are making great contributions to the workforce. Its insulting to say that women should not work outside of the home implying that their contributions are unneccessary. Its equaly insulting to belittle stay at home moms. I certainly don't have it all figured out but some posters arrogantly think they do.

People love to knock feminism. Feminism is the belief that men and women are equal (wow what a crazy demonic idea). Feminism gave women the right to vote and equal pay for equal work. It brought us radical ideas like women are as smart as men and you can't rape your wife.

The sexual revoloution on the other hand seems to be the root of many of the problems that people are blaming on feminism. And the blame for that can be equally spread around.
Feminism for you and me means that men and women are equal. Feminism for some people means that men are socially uneccessary or even a detriment to society. To alot of people, feminism and the sexual revolution go hand in hand.
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  #42  
Old Feb 20, '12, 5:08 pm
LisaA LisaA is offline
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Default Re: Why is the USCCB so big on women working?

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Historically speaking, that is not the case. The 50's saw the rise of enough of a middle class that we could say "most woman didn't work". Even then, woman from lower socio-economic situation worked. If they lived in the country, they did farm work. If they lived in the city, they cleaned houses and worked on factory lines. Prior to that era, it was only the upper-middle class and wealthiest families that could afford for the mother not to work at all. Keep in mind that many families owned family businesses. I suppose you could argue that the woman in those cases weren't getting into cars and driving away, but they weren't in the house watching the children either.
Really? MARRIED WOMEN WITH CHILREN? I truly think this is not the case in the past. As I said, I'm from a family of working women, mostly nurses and teachers. But until my mom's generation they all quit when they got married. In fact there was often a prohibition against married and certainly pregnant teachers and nurses until relatively recently in our history. Even the more modern professions such as flight attendant, married women and mothers were prohibited from maintaining employment.

In addition as you said many women worked on farms. And frankly so did the children. I'm also from a farming family and my grandmothers, great grandmothers etc worked on the farm but it was not behind the plow but in the garden, the kitchen and to some extent the dairy/henhouse. The children were raised by their two married parents who were well within shouting distance not twenty miles away.

I've worked with many many working mothers and finding good childcare is difficult. Regardless of whether the daycare provider keeps the children safe, there is simply no way a daycare provider cares about your child and his/her wellbeing in the same way you do. Obviously for some mothers working is necessary, particularly in this economy. But what I dispute is the complete about face regarding working women vis a vis stay at home moms. The former are glorified even if their 'career' is nothing particularly inspiring while the latter are demeaned as if raising responsible citizens were not among the most noble of vocations.

In all fairness I really detect this anti-homemaker attitude in your posts. I am all for doing what is right for one's family and if work is necessary, so be it. But if possible I think the best environment for children is to be raised by a team of parents who work together to produce a stable (emotionally, financially) home.

Lisa
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  #43  
Old Feb 20, '12, 5:12 pm
Debora123 Debora123 is offline
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Default Re: Why is the USCCB so big on women working?

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So basically, I, a man, and others, men, and women, can read these posts and come up with retorts which at least address the posts... and you can't because it stirs up "feelings". See my post about Fromm's idea of how to irrationalize and emotionalize society via feminization and the down-talking of masculinity.

Feminism is the idea that men and women are equal? No it's not. If that was the case, feminists wouldn't push such insane definitions of rape like "if you feel regret the day later, it's rape" and "if you were drunk, and he was drunk, it was rape"... are men somehow impervious to the effects of alcohol? Does a drunk woman get off of DUI charges since she couldn't consent to driving anyway?

If women and men are equal, I'm the Duke of Earl. We are complimentary, not "equal". We are only fulfilled IN each other through complimentary aspects, not equal aspects. Eve was created because Adam needed a mate. She wasn't created so Eve would have a scrapbooking partner, nor so Adam would have a friend to burp and drink beer with. They were to become one flesh. ONLY in this relationship can men and women be equal by fulfilling and being fulfilled in that which they lack, and together can create that which they are. A woman without a husband has to take on male attributes if she is a mother. A man without a wife has to learn femininity in certain regards, if he is a father.

Women do not receive equal pay for equal work, still, except for minimum wage jobs in which the lowest common denominator is a hilarious way to look at things. Yay! We are able to be equal at the bottom!

The sexual revolution is inextricably linked to feminism and the fall of morality. Can't have one without the other, or else you just have mass rape.

In the spirit of feminism, equality, and solidarity: Don't hate me bro!
You seem very angry.

You believe women should stay in the home and not pursue full time careers.

That's perfectly fine that you feel that way.

But you have to have respect for others who disagree with you. And above all, don't try to paint the picture that it's wrong for women to work outside the home when the Church certainly doesn't teach it.
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  #44  
Old Feb 20, '12, 5:24 pm
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Default Re: Why is the USCCB so big on women working?

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In all fairness I really detect this anti-homemaker attitude in your posts. I am all for doing what is right for one's family and if work is necessary, so be it. But if possible I think the best environment for children is to be raised by a team of parents who work together to produce a stable (emotionally, financially) home.

Lisa
You would be incorrect. I find nothing morally wrong with taking advantage of the ability to stay home if it exists. I think we would all love to be able to stay home from work and play with our kids, with the exception of some individuals who find their jobs especially meaningful and rewarding. I just find it extremely unrealistic expectation for many families and I take offense to blaming the ills of society on those woman who have put on their big girl panties and managed to work hard to support their families as well as nurture them. I also find it extremely wrong when those who are able to get by on one income suggest that those who can't afford to are not doing all they can to (as you put it) "produce a stable (emotionally and finacially) home"
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  #45  
Old Feb 20, '12, 5:33 pm
LisaA LisaA is offline
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Default Re: Why is the USCCB so big on women working?

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I can't even read all of the posts on this thread because they are infuriating. Women are multi-talented and have and are making great contributions to the workforce. Its insulting to say that women should not work outside of the home implying that their contributions are unneccessary. Its equaly insulting to belittle stay at home moms. I certainly don't have it all figured out but some posters arrogantly think they do.

People love to knock feminism. Feminism is the belief that men and women are equal (wow what a crazy demonic idea). Feminism gave women the right to vote and equal pay for equal work. It brought us radical ideas like women are as smart as men and you can't rape your wife.

The sexual revoloution on the other hand seems to be the root of many of the problems that people are blaming on feminism. And the blame for that can be equally spread around.
Wow I think you're reading into the posts a lot more than was intended. I think the only suggestion that women not work outside the home is when raising their children. Do you think it's optimal that a family raise its own children or at least get them through the toddler years into school? Of do you think a daycare center, particularly government regulated is the best place for children to grow up?

You have an interesting definition of feminism---I think even the much maligned St Paul believed men and women were equal in being beloved sons and daughters of God. Equal in dignity and inherent rights does not mean interchangeable. IOW men are more than hairy deep voiced women and women are more than curvy soft men. Feminism wasn't even a word when women got the right to vote and equal pay was never a matter of sex discrimination alone. There was a sad time in this country when wages could be determined by skin color. Thankfully we've grown beyond that too. Feminism is not the source of knowledge that men aren't always smarter than women. Where did you get that idea? As to the rape of one's wife...heavens! That really isn't a serious issue is it?

FWIW feminism IS the source of the sexual revolution with ABC being its drug of choice. One could not risk promiscuous behavior with the spector of an unplanned pregnancy lurking in the background. Now women are 'free' as I said to run around like alley cats, kill their unplanned babies, to raise their children alone or with Uncle Sam as the father. How's that working out?

Believe me I know where you are coming from because when I was younger I thought the same way. But now I believe we have indeed reaped a very bitter harvest in our quest to be 'equal.' The unintended consequences have struck again.

Lisa
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