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  #16  
Old Sep 28, '11, 1:17 pm
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Default Re: Deuterocanonical books, arguments for these being inspired.

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Originally Posted by catholictiger View Post
Simple Question what are some of arguments for why these books should be included. .
Because they always were. Because the Canon was the Canon for 1800 yrs before someone decided to take out those writings. Because every Bible, including the KJV, included them up until an American publisher after the Revolution in about 1885, took them out. (The exception was a limited printing of a Bible published by a private society in England for use amongst native tribes for evangelization.)

Removing the books and using a truncated version of Scripture is a what needs justifying, not having the original and constant Canon of Scripture.

You now, the only reason anyone, including every single Protestant who makes the claim, believes Scripture is inspired, is because the Catholic Church said so.
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  #17  
Old Sep 28, '11, 7:03 pm
Dave Noonan Dave Noonan is online now
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Default Re: Deuterocanonical books, arguments for these being inspired.

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Originally Posted by melekali View Post
Actually, the dead sea scrolls included the entire canon and deuterocanon in HEBREW, hence the common theory that only those in Hebrew excludes the deuterocanon is an erroneous argument. Where do they think the Septuagint came from in the first place? It was translated from the Hebrew. How is it possible that the collection of writings we call the bible today does not contain at the the number of books the Catholic Church accepts if all of them were both in Hebrew and Greek?
Actually, part of this is untrue. The Dead Sea Scrolls include fragments from Sirach, Tobit and Baruch, but not the other Deuterocanonical books. No fragments of Esther (either proto- or deuterocanonical) were found at Qumran.

I can't think of anyone who thinks II Maccabees was written in Hebrew.
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  #18  
Old Sep 28, '11, 7:59 pm
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Default Re: Deuterocanonical books, arguments for these being inspired.

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Actually, part of this is untrue. The Dead Sea Scrolls include fragments from Sirach, Tobit and Baruch, but not the other Deuterocanonical books. No fragments of Esther (either proto- or deuterocanonical) were found at Qumran.

I can't think of anyone who thinks II Maccabees was written in Hebrew.
And obv no NT
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  #19  
Old Sep 29, '11, 6:03 pm
Fr of Jazz Fr of Jazz is offline
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Default Re: Deuterocanonical books, arguments for these being inspired.

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Originally Posted by catholictiger View Post
Simple Question what are some of arguments for why these books should be included.

This is the apparent reasoning or one reasoning why these books are included in scripture and are considered inspired.

The simple fact that many of the Early Christians who lived in the time of Christ lived used what we call the Septuagint which includes 46 books, unlike the 39 used in the Hebrew Scripture, so by the simple fact that Most christians used 46 instead of 39 we have 46 books in the OT instead of just 39.

This probably won't work well for argument sakes but could very well explain why we have the books we do.

So what are some of the explanations you have heard or you use to argue to non Catholics why we have 46 books instead of 39.
See my posts below:
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=598733
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  #20  
Old Nov 12, '11, 2:09 pm
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melekali melekali is offline
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Default Re: Deuterocanonical books, arguments for these being inspired.

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Originally Posted by Dave Noonan View Post
Actually, part of this is untrue. The Dead Sea Scrolls include fragments from Sirach, Tobit and Baruch, but not the other Deuterocanonical books. No fragments of Esther (either proto- or deuterocanonical) were found at Qumran.

I can't think of anyone who thinks II Maccabees was written in Hebrew.
Thanks. I wasn't aware of that.
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  #21  
Old Nov 12, '11, 2:10 pm
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Default Re: Deuterocanonical books, arguments for these being inspired.

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Originally Posted by Julia Mae View Post
And obv no NT
Matthew quite possibly could have been written in Hebrew or Aramaic.
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  #22  
Old Nov 14, '11, 2:02 pm
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Default Re: Deuterocanonical books, arguments for these being inspired.

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There is a difference between Christian LXX and Jewish LXX, talk to any rabbi about it sometime.
These are the same people who reject the idea of a suffering Messiah? No Jewish rabbi ever had the authority to claim what was inspired and what was not. In fact there is some even today who say that the Jewish scriptures are not closed but only the Messiah will close them when he comes.
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  #23  
Old Nov 14, '11, 9:22 pm
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Default Re: Deuterocanonical books, arguments for these being inspired.

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Originally Posted by E Thrower II View Post
COOL!!

I bought a facsimile of the original 1611 King James and it has 14. But I guess they couldn't prove those writings were inspired by God so eventually they were removed. But what I find very interesting is that in the Old Testament writings that they believed were inspired by God, they refer to other books that are not in the Bible.

For example Joshua 10:13
And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. [Is] not this written in the book of Jasher?

Who is Jasher? That book is not in the Apocrypha either.
Interestingly, Jude refers to the non-caninical, non-inspired book of Enoch in his letter, which itself is inspired (Jude 1:14-16).

Even though Luther declared the Deuterocanon to be "non-inspired", he left them in the bible which bears his name, as he thought them edifying to read. At what point, and by what authority was Luther's judgment later rejected and the seven books were removed entirely?

Just as Luther picked and chose (and was restrained from further deletions - i.e. the Apocalypse, James, Hebrews, etc.), those who followed also picked and chose from Luther's selection. This process is decidedly entropic in nature.

Following this principle, should the entire bible be re-done? What authority would accomplish this?
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  #24  
Old Nov 14, '11, 9:46 pm
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Default Re: Deuterocanonical books, arguments for these being inspired.

Recent conversation with an Anglican Bishop reveals that prominent Anglican theologian Henry Chadwick believed that Jesus quoted directly from Sirach. The discovery of three partial copies of Sirach among the dead sea scrolls is a rather thorny issue for those who wish to exclude the book. This certainly should lead to questioning the advisability of summarily excluding the Deuterocanon in the first place. Church authority included the books, while individual authority excluded them.

The reason that Trent declared the seven books as the Deuterocanon is the same reason that inspired all declarations of dogma: a response to heresy. Each deuterocanonical book had been used somewhere in the Church (although not in all individual churches) from day one. If not, no book could then be introduced.
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  #25  
Old Nov 14, '11, 10:26 pm
garysibio garysibio is offline
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Default Re: Deuterocanonical books, arguments for these being inspired.

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Originally Posted by po18guy View Post
The discovery of three partial copies of Sirach among the dead sea scrolls is a rather thorny issue for those who wish to exclude the book.
I'm not questioning the canonicity of Sirach but your logic here is flawed. I assume - and I apologize in advance if I am wrong - that you mean that this shows that it was accepted by Hebrew/Aramaic-speaking Jews. However consistency would require you to apply this same logic to those works found at Qumran that are not in anyone's canon such as the "War of the Sons of Light Against the Sons of Darkness."
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  #26  
Old Nov 14, '11, 11:10 pm
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Default Re: Deuterocanonical books, arguments for these being inspired.

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Originally Posted by garysibio View Post
I'm not questioning the canonicity of Sirach but your logic here is flawed. I assume - and I apologize in advance if I am wrong - that you mean that this shows that it was accepted by Hebrew/Aramaic-speaking Jews. However consistency would require you to apply this same logic to those works found at Qumran that are not in anyone's canon such as the "War of the Sons of Light Against the Sons of Darkness."
Basically, the discovery has caused some second guessing on the part of the "apocryphers" (is that a word?) as to its summary exclusion from the reformer's bible. If I'm not mistaken, there are fragments of Hebrew copies in addition to the Greek, which raises the question of pre- or extra-Septuagint use. The use of any book outside of the Pentateuch is not universal even in Judaism. Going further, the requirement for Judaic acceptance as a determinant of Christian Canonicity appears ludicrous to me, especially in the then-nascent Christian era, when there were plentiful motives for the various Jewish authorities to reject any writing of potential Christian application. There was no agreement on the Jewish canon among even the Jews who were contemporaneous to Sirach's composition.

Bottom line is that the Church has always used it, was lead to examine it and declared it inspired. Some 1,700 years after its composition, a rebellious, agenda-driven individual, on his own authority (or lack thereof), called it into question. To Catholics and Orthodox, there has never been a question.
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  #27  
Old Nov 14, '11, 11:12 pm
garysibio garysibio is offline
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Default Re: Deuterocanonical books, arguments for these being inspired.

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Originally Posted by po18guy View Post
Basically, the discovery has caused some second guessing on the part of the "apocryphers" (to coin a clumsy phrase) as to its canonicity. If I'm not mistaken, there are fragments of Hebrew copies in addition to the Greek, which raises the question of pre- or extra-Septuagint use. The use of any book outside of the Pentateuch is not universal even in Judaism. Going further, the requirement for Judaic acceptance as a determinant of Christian Canonicity appears ludicrous to me, especially in the then-nascent Christian era, when there were plentiful motives for the various Jewish authorities to reject any writing of potential Christian application. There was no agreement on the Jewish canon among even the Jews who were contemporaneous to Sirach's composition.

Bottom line is that the Church has always used it, was lead to examine it and declared it inspired. Some 1,700 years after its composition, a rebellious, agenda-driven individual, on his own authority (or lack thereof), called it into question. To Catholics and Orthodox, there has never been a question.
I see you point. Thanks for the clarification.
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  #28  
Old Feb 24, '12, 10:30 am
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Default Re: Deuterocanonical books, arguments for these being inspired.

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If you are using the term apocrypha in the Protestant sense, yes. If you are using it in the Catholic sense, no. What the Catholics call the apocrypha, Protestants call the pseudopigrapha.
Here is some typologies of the Deuterocanonical scripture:

Revelation 1:4 John, to the seven churches of Asia: grace and peace to you from him who is, who was, and who is to come, from the seven spirits who are before his throne, Tobit 12:15 I am Raphael, one of the seven angels who stand ever ready to enter the presence of the glory of the Lord.'
James 5:3 l your gold and your silver are corroding away, and the same corrosion will be a witness against you and eat into your body. It is like a fire which you have stored up for the final days. Sirach 29:10 Spend your money on your brother or your friend, do not leave it under a stone to rust away. 11 Use your wealth as the Most High has decreed; you will find that more profitable than gold.
James 3:13 Anyone who is wise or understanding among you should from a good life give evidence of deeds done in the gentleness of wisdom. Sirach 3:18 The greater you are, the more humbly you should behave, and then you will find favour with the Lord;
James 1:19 Remember this, my dear brothers: everyone should be quick to listen but slow to speak and slow to human anger; Sirach 5:11 Be quick to listen, and deliberate in giving an answer.
Ephesian 6:13 That is why you must take up all God's armour, or you will not be able to put up any resistance on the evil day, or stand your ground even though you exert yourselves to the full. 14 So stand your ground, with truth a belt round your waist, and uprightness a breastplate, 15 wearing for shoes on your feet the eagerness to spread the gospel of peace 16 and always carrying the shield of faith so that you can use it to quench the burning arrows of the Evil One. 17 And then you must take salvation as your helmet and the sword of the Spirit, that is, the word of God. Wisdom 5:17 For armour he will take his jealous love, he will arm creation to punish his enemies;18 he will put on justice as a breastplate, and for helmet wear his forthright judgement; 19 he will take up invincible holiness for shield, 20 of his pitiless wrath he will forge a sword, and the universe will march with him to fight the reckless.
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