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  #46  
Old Feb 24, '12, 9:59 am
Bezant Bezant is offline
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Default Re: People that leave/reject the Church.

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Originally Posted by tbcrawford View Post
Another reason some may leave is because of the actions of other catholics.Perhaps a priest/other religious has let them down.Perhaps a catholic has, by their actions, led another person to believe that the catholic church may not be the one true church.There are many 'upset' people from painful things such a child abuse and so forth that have given the church a bad name.
Although we know the church is true, members of the church may let it down by their actions and lead others to question their very faith.
It is not always a straight forward reason for people lapsing or straying.
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Originally Posted by Zundrah View Post
Yes you're right. It's just like how people will abandon Christianity itself as a whole.

One of my mothers old neighbors use to bring the Eucharist to disabled people at their own homes. She ended up divorcing her husband even though after talking with the priest and he had advised against it. She did so because he was very violent. Anyway, the way people treated her afterwards was horrific. So in a sense it wasn't about Church teaching maybe, but because of how she remembers being treated by them.

She's not even Christian now.
I definitely agree with both of you. When my parents first visited a Catholic Church after showing a long interest, they didn't know that they couldn't receive the Eucharist until a very rude deacon told them on the queue, "You're not Catholic" and made a shooing gesture. Thankfully the rest of the parish was very kind but it only takes a bad apple to turn people away (as my parents almost did), I can only imagine what many bad apples could do to that lady
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  #47  
Old Feb 24, '12, 10:05 am
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Zundrah Zundrah is offline
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Default Re: People that leave/reject the Church.

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Originally Posted by Bezant View Post
I definitely agree with both of you. When my parents first visited a Catholic Church after showing a long interest, they didn't know that they couldn't receive the Eucharist until a very rude deacon told them on the queue, "You're not Catholic" and made a shooing gesture. Thankfully the rest of the parish was very kind but it only takes a bad apple to turn people away (as my parents almost did), I can only imagine what many bad apples could do to that lady
Bezant, that must have been really embarrassing for them and what hostility!
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  #48  
Old Feb 24, '12, 10:13 am
Bezant Bezant is offline
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Default Re: People that leave/reject the Church.

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Originally Posted by MrZetterlund View Post
In my opinion, denial of the Real Presence and transubstantiation is un-Christian, regardless if they leave the Church:
But since when was a belief transubstantiation or the Real Presence the basis of being a Christian?

I believe that the Orthodox refrain from the theory of transubstantiation, and unless I'm mistaken the theory is only eight or nine centuries old.
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  #49  
Old Feb 24, '12, 10:14 am
Bezant Bezant is offline
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Default Re: People that leave/reject the Church.

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Bezant, that must have been really embarrassing for them and what hostility!
It was but he had been causing problems in the parish for years. He left a few months before my family converted.
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  #50  
Old Feb 24, '12, 10:31 am
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tbcrawford tbcrawford is offline
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Default Re: People that leave/reject the Church.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bezant View Post
I definitely agree with both of you. When my parents first visited a Catholic Church after showing a long interest, they didn't know that they couldn't receive the Eucharist until a very rude deacon told them on the queue, "You're not Catholic" and made a shooing gesture. Thankfully the rest of the parish was very kind but it only takes a bad apple to turn people away (as my parents almost did), I can only imagine what many bad apples could do to that lady
Thankyou for sharing this Bezant.This makes me so sad and so many other situations like this.So many people are being led away form the church due to the actions of some people.I am thankful the rest of the parish were kind.

Makes me so sad.These situations could and should be prevented.Sometimes I think we have to look inside ourselves and try to see ourselves as perhaps others may to recognise when we may be failing Our Lord by our very actions.I am sure most of the time we do not realise that our actions can be negative or hurtful. May God bless us and guide us all
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  #51  
Old Feb 24, '12, 10:45 am
Bezant Bezant is offline
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Default Re: People that leave/reject the Church.

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Originally Posted by tbcrawford View Post
Thankyou for sharing this Bezant.This makes me so sad and so many other situations like this. So many people are being led away form the church due to the actions of some people.I am thankful the rest of the parish were kind.

Makes me so sad.These situations could and should be prevented.Sometimes I think we have to look inside ourselves and try to see ourselves as perhaps others may to recognise when we may be failing Our Lord by our very actions.I am sure most of the time we do not realise that our actions can be negative or hurtful. May God bless us and guide us all

It is sad, because my parents were visiting what became our parish at a time when they badly needed a church, but thankfully most people are more sensitive about divorce and Protestants than they were in the past. The negativity I believe that's most prevalent in parishes are gossip, politics and clique-y behaviour but it all comes from a prideful heart I suppose.
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  #52  
Old Feb 24, '12, 10:49 am
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LittleSoldier LittleSoldier is offline
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Default Re: People that leave/reject the Church.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bezant View Post
But since when was a belief transubstantiation or the Real Presence the basis of being a Christian?

I believe that the Orthodox refrain from the theory of transubstantiation, and unless I'm mistaken the theory is only eight or nine centuries old.
It's not a "theory." A theory is based on evidence which may have been discovered just by chance. When God says something it goes way beyond a theory - it is absolute Truth. Jesus said "This is My Body which will be given up for you." He didn't say "This symbolizes My Body" or "This is kind of like My Body but it's really unleavened bread." He also said "This is My Blood," not "This is really wine but it symbolizes My Blood."

Transubstantiation took place that very night. The bread and wine were miraculously transformed into the actual Body and Blood of the Christ. That means it is about 2,000 years old - 20 centuries, not eight or nine.

A belief in transubstantiation or the Real Presence may not the basis of being a Christian. A Christian is a person who tries to follow the teachings of Jesus or who simply believes that Jesus is God. There are many different types of Christians. But a Christian Catholic believes in transubstantiation or may have tried his very best to accept this but is invincibly ignorant. Transubstantiation is so much the basis of the Catholic Faith that I wonder how any Catholic could remain a Catholic and not believe in it. The words that Jesus said on the night He was betrayed are the most important words ever spoken in the history of the world.

If I have written anything contrary to official Church teaching I apologize and request clarification.
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  #53  
Old Feb 24, '12, 11:00 am
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Zundrah Zundrah is offline
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Default Re: People that leave/reject the Church.

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Originally Posted by Bezant View Post
It was but he had been causing problems in the parish for years. He left a few months before my family converted.
Let's hope he doesn't spread his bitterness all where ever he goes, and thankful that you are without him.

Your priest, if he did see/hear it should have giving him a good talking to.
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  #54  
Old Feb 24, '12, 11:01 am
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LittleSoldier LittleSoldier is offline
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Unhappy Re: People that leave/reject the Church.

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Originally Posted by Bezant View Post
It was but he had been causing problems in the parish for years. He left a few months before my family converted.
It's so sad that those who represent the Church sometimes (and way too often) forget Jesus' Commandments - especially the second one (Love your neighbor as yourself). A priest teaching an RCIA class told one of my doctors that because he (the doctor, not the priest) had had a vasectomy years before that he and his wife would not be allowed to have marital relations for the rest of their lives.

My doctor mistakenly believed that the priest was a successor of the Apostles (bishops are the real successors). He left that night, with his wife, and didn't check to see if what this priest had said was true. One priest and one statement ended with this doctor and his wife not becoming Catholics.

I can't say it was all the priest's fault. Certainly a physician should know enough to check things out and he didn't bother. He and his wife joined the Episcopal Church but now have given up on all organized religion. I wish I had had the knowledge to help him when I could have but I was very unknowledgeable myself.
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He said to him the third time: Simon, son of John, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he had said to him the third time: Lovest thou me? And he said to him: Lord, thou knowest all things: thou knowest that I love thee. He said to him: Feed my sheep.

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  #55  
Old Feb 24, '12, 11:05 am
Bezant Bezant is offline
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Default Re: People that leave/reject the Church.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LittleSoldier View Post
It's not a "theory." A theory is based on evidence which may have been discovered just by chance. When God says something it goes way beyond a theory - it is absolute Truth. Jesus said "This is My Body which will be given up for you." He didn't say "This symbolizes My Body" or "This is kind of like My Body but it's really unleavened bread." He also said "This is My Blood," not "This is really wine but it symbolizes My Blood."

Transubstantiation took place that very night. The bread and wine were miraculously transformed into the actual Body and Blood of the Christ. That means it is about 2,000 years old - 20 centuries, not eight or nine.
Thank-you. I mean to say that the idea as explained by the Church is only centuries old.
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  #56  
Old Feb 24, '12, 11:13 am
Rence Rence is offline
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Default Re: People that leave/reject the Church.

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Originally Posted by JD27076 View Post
What are the souls who leave the Church? Are they in a state of Mortal Sin?

Or the people who reject the Church, such as Matt Slick, Mike Grendon, etc.
Since all Salvation comes from Jesus through his Church, are they not accepting the gift of Salvation?

Thanks.
Nobody knows what happens to the souls who leave the Church. Only God knows that. I have to believe it has everything to do with their intentions when leaving though. If someone leaves the Church because they can't reconcile with a teaching, but finds God and spirituality in another religion that brings them home, I don't think it will be held against them. People have to follow their conscience and bring them to a place that leads them and keeps them with God. There's no sense in remaining in a religion that has you simmering in anger and resentment and disbelief. Ultimately, Catholics have to believe in the Church and trust in the Church. If they don't believe and trust in the Church, but find God and love God in another, I don't think it's a one-way ticket to Hell.
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  #57  
Old Feb 24, '12, 2:52 pm
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MrZetterlund MrZetterlund is offline
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Default Re: People that leave/reject the Church.

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Originally Posted by SmallCcatholic View Post
Intellectually honest ??? I don't claim to be a scholar..I read those verses more times than you are old to read what was going on in the background..What do scholars commentary say about the chapter.. Does the Orthodox teach this is about consubstantiation ? How about the persons heart being pure before the Lord before He partakes,,,
This verse isn't about consubstantiation or transubstantiation, its about the Real Presence, the actual presence of Christ in the bread and the wine of the Eucharist. Catholics and Orthodox Christians are the oldest Christian religions, and they both agree on this.

If its just bread and wine, then why worry about being "pure of heart" before taking it anyway?

Regardless, in my conversion I went with transubstantiation (i.e. the bread and wine actually being His body and blood) instead of consubstantiation (i.e. being present "along side" the bread and wine,) because 1 Cor. 10:16-17 clearly says:

"The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?"

And unlike Protestants, Catholics and Orthodox Christians celebrate the Eucharist every Sunday as it is seen in Sacred Scripture:

"Now on the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul, ready to depart the next day, spoke to them and continued his message until midnight.” (Acts 20:7 NKJV.)

In fact, this is seen every time the Christians gather together in unity:

"So continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they ate their food with gladness and simplicity of heart,” (Acts 2:46 NKJV.)

“And they continued steadfastly in the apostles’ doctrine and fellowship, in the breaking of bread, and in prayers.” (Acts 2:42 NKJV.)

The Eucharist is one of many reasons I will never again be a Protestant. To me, to be a Protestant is to be a mutilated member of the body of Christ.....

Last edited by MrZetterlund; Feb 24, '12 at 3:05 pm.
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  #58  
Old Feb 24, '12, 3:04 pm
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MrZetterlund MrZetterlund is offline
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Default Re: People that leave/reject the Church.

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Originally Posted by Bezant View Post
But since when was a belief transubstantiation or the Real Presence the basis of being a Christian?

I believe that the Orthodox refrain from the theory of transubstantiation, and unless I'm mistaken the theory is only eight or nine centuries old.
I wasn't making the point that it was the basis of being Christian, rather it is un-Christian to reject the Real Presence, and to a lesser extent, transubstantiation. You can believe in Christ and be a Christian, but rejection of the Real Presence is the rejection of the Bible, Christ's word according to His followers, and true Christianity itself.
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  #59  
Old Mar 6, '12, 5:59 pm
cmlarose cmlarose is offline
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Default Re: People that leave/reject the Church.

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Originally Posted by Luvtosew View Post
What about someone who leaves because they just realized the Mass is a Sacrifice of Jesus and also learns about transubstantiation, and in her heart can't come to grips with neither, what about her?? should she stay and receive the Eucharist anyway?
Leaving Christ’s Church because something disappoints you is like leaving Christ (as many of the Jews did), when He taught something too hard to believe, like on receiving Holy Communion in John 6: “ Jesus said to them, ‘Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life and I will raise them up at the last day.’” (v 53-54) and “On hearing it, many of his disciples said, ‘This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?’ . . . From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.” (v 60,66)

Stay and ask God for the grace to receive Him fully, Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity.
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