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  #76  
Old Feb 23, '12, 8:39 am
scipio337 scipio337 is offline
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Default Re: Pres. Obama’s pro-abortion record chronicled [Fr. Z]

Hey, I even found a copy of the bill he voted against:

Quote:
New Act

Creates the Partial-birth Abortion Ban Act. Prohibits
partial-birth abortions unless necessary to save the life of a mother
whose life is endangered by a physical disorder, physical illness, or
physical injury, provided that no other medical procedure would
suffice for that purpose. Makes performance of a partial-birth
abortion a Class 4 felony. Provides for a civil action by the father
and maternal grandparents of the fetus. Prohibits prosecution of a
woman on whom a partial-birth abortion is performed. Effective 60 days
after becoming law.
http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/legi...900SB0230.html

Obama: voted "NO" in judiciary comittee, voted "present" on the floor of the senate, when it was obvious the bill would NOT pass.

Is this still "misinformation", bella?
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  #77  
Old Feb 23, '12, 8:43 am
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qui est ce qui est ce is offline
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Default Re: Pres. Obama’s pro-abortion record chronicled [Fr. Z]

Quote:
Originally Posted by bellasbane View Post
Historically women and children have been considered the property of men. We are talking about thousands of years. When Jesus lived, the law of Rome was that it was up to the man of the house to decide whether or not a baby would be allowed to live. If he didn't want it - the baby would be left to die. How do you think all those mothers felt about that? We don't know, because the voices of women from antiquity are silent.
Completely irrelevant to the subject. We are discussing history here.
Quote:
And they remained silent for the next 2000 years. Sure there are a few exceptions (e.g., Catherine of Siena) - but really, how many centuries of jurisprudence, theology and philosophy are skewed by the voices of men only? The result is that we have only a "half-witted" understanding of human nature.
[/quote[
So now men are feeling a bit unempowered by our current reproductive laws - Good! When you don't own something - what right do you have to it? Men don't own women's bodies - we are not incubators but people. People who happen to have a soft spot for babies. That's how God made us. We don't need men to tell us to want children.
Wow, just wow. Who on this thread has said women are incubators and men want to control women???
Quote:
If a man is really worried about his children, then as Beyoncé says, "If you like then you should have put a ring on it". Women who have the financial and emotional support of a husband do not abort their babies. As long as men keep trying to control women, instead of controlling their own selfish libidos - then abortions will continue.
And the women who are accommodating them.
Quote:
The Virginia law is being reexamined because of genuine outrage. Don't act like it would have been changed anyway out of the "goodness" of Bill McDonnell's heart.
I sure wish those who are so outraged about this bill would channel their energies to protect the unborn from invasive procedures that kill them.
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  #78  
Old Feb 23, '12, 8:53 am
jwinch2 jwinch2 is offline
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Default Re: Pres. Obama’s pro-abortion record chronicled [Fr. Z]

Quote:
Originally Posted by bellasbane View Post
So now men are feeling a bit unempowered by our current reproductive laws - Good! When you don't own something - what right do you have to it? Men don't own women's bodies - we are not incubators but people. People who happen to have a soft spot for babies. That's how God made us. We don't need men to tell us to want children.
Women don't own that life in their womb either the last time I checked.
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  #79  
Old Feb 23, '12, 9:09 am
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bellasbane bellasbane is offline
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Default Re: Pres. Obama’s pro-abortion record chronicled [Fr. Z]

Quote:
Originally Posted by scipio337 View Post
I'm not sure where my post stated he was a Muslim.

Again, WHY IS THE FEDERAL BAIPA THE ISSUE??? We have his actual voting record on the IL, and the lies and leaps of logic in defense of that voting record.

Obama on PBA:





http://www.issues2000.org/social/Bar...a_Abortion.htm

Michell Obama fundraising letter for Obama's 2004 campaign, regarding the "unconstitutional" PBA ban.

I know it's jill staneks site, but its just a PDF of the newsletter.

http://www.jillstanek.com/Slide%201%...a%20letter.jpg

http://www.jillstanek.com/Slide%202%...a%20letter.jpg

His/her exuse at the time was, as always, "no health exception for the mother", even though he voted AGAINST A STATE BILL THAT DID INCLUDE AN EXCEPTION FOR THE MOTHER.


And you can take that at face value, based on his previous lies regarding the IL BAIPA?

You can accept what Obama says he would have done, but I think the more weighted evidence would be what he actually has done.


Its not 'Lies", bella, its his voting record as a state senator.
OK - lets take a look at one of the bills he voted against:

Obama Voted against banning partial birth abortion

In 1997, Obama voted against SB 230, which would have turned doctors into felons by banning so-called partial-birth abortion, & against a 2000 bill banning state funding. Although these bills included an exception to save the life of the mother, they didn’t include anything about abortions necessary to protect the health of the mother. The legislation defined a fetus as a person, & could have criminalized virtually all abortion.

Why is so much packed into this one bill?

1. Ban on PBA
2. Exception for the life of mother
3. No exception for the health of the mother
4. Fetus defined as a person
5. Potential to criminalize virtually all abortion

If the goal is to ban PBA - why not just #1 with exceptions for 2 & 3?

If Obama believes that defining a fetus as a person is going dangerously too far - then he is forced to vote against the entire bill as written. However, if the bill were more limited in scope, then he could vote for it.

Who wrote this bill?
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  #80  
Old Feb 23, '12, 9:21 am
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bellasbane bellasbane is offline
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Default Re: Pres. Obama’s pro-abortion record chronicled [Fr. Z]

Quote:
Originally Posted by jwinch2 View Post
Women don't own that life in their womb either the last time I checked.
Syria doesn't own the lives of its citizens either, but there is not much we can do to save them. They are beyond our jurisdiction. Sure we could invade with force, but can we really justify taking away the sovereignty of a nation without first doing everything in our power to compel them to support human rights?

Lets say we supply them with all sorts of aid that would make them a healthy and productive nation, and they responded by loving and nurturing their citizens. Wouldn't that be a better option then war?
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  #81  
Old Feb 23, '12, 10:01 am
scipio337 scipio337 is offline
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Default Re: Pres. Obama’s pro-abortion record chronicled [Fr. Z]

Quote:
Originally Posted by bellasbane View Post
OK - lets take a look at one of the bills he voted against:

Obama Voted against banning partial birth abortion

In 1997, Obama voted against SB 230, which would have turned doctors into felons by banning so-called partial-birth abortion, & against a 2000 bill banning state funding. Although these bills included an exception to save the life of the mother, they didn’t include anything about abortions necessary to protect the health of the mother. The legislation defined a fetus as a person, & could have criminalized virtually all abortion.

Why is so much packed into this one bill?

1. Ban on PBA
2. Exception for the life of mother
3. No exception for the health of the mother
4. Fetus defined as a person
5. Potential to criminalize virtually all abortion

If the goal is to ban PBA - why not just #1 with exceptions for 2 & 3?

If Obama believes that defining a fetus as a person is going dangerously too far - then he is forced to vote against the entire bill as written. However, if the bill were more limited in scope, then he could vote for it.

Who wrote this bill?
I provided a link of the bill. There was no "definition of the fetus as a person, that could criminalize all abortion". If there is, please point this out in the link I provided.

The "health of the mother" clause has been defined in Doe v. Bolton:

Quote:
Whether, in the words of the Georgia statute, "an abortion is necessary" is a professional judgment that the Georgia physician will be called upon to make routinely. We agree with the District Court, 319 F. Supp., at 1058, that the medical judgment may be exercised in the light of all factors - physical, emotional, psychological, familial, and the woman's age - relevant to the well-being of the patient. All these factors may relate to health.
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/script...=410&invol=179

A PBA ban with an exception for the "health of the mother" would effectively ban PBA, except for when the mother wanted one.

In effect, it wouldnt' be a "ban" at all. A woman could make the claim that time away from her job for maternity leave would create stress, and viola, have your PBA.

Can you name an condition or incidence when the health, but not the life of the mother would be in danger?

On a side note, the federal PBA did include a "life" exception, but not a "health" exception, and was found constitutional.
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  #82  
Old Feb 23, '12, 11:55 am
jwinch2 jwinch2 is offline
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Default Re: Pres. Obama’s pro-abortion record chronicled [Fr. Z]

Quote:
Originally Posted by bellasbane View Post
The Virginia law is being reexamined because of genuine outrage. Don't act like it would have been changed anyway out of the "goodness" of Bill McDonnell's heart.
Perhaps it would be better to move this discussion to a different thread as we are pretty much off the rails according to the topic of this one. I will start a new thread to that end.

http://forums.catholic.com/showthrea...55#post8996855

On this thread, I will not post further on the VA bill in an attempt to keep the thread focused on its purpose which is President Obama and his record on life.
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  #83  
Old Feb 23, '12, 2:07 pm
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Maso Maso is offline
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Default Re: Pres. Obama’s pro-abortion record chronicled [Fr. Z]

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  #84  
Old Feb 24, '12, 7:34 am
Graubo3 Graubo3 is offline
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Default Re: Pres. Obama’s pro-abortion record chronicled [Fr. Z]

Quote:
Originally Posted by jwinch2 View Post

On this thread, I will not post further on the VA bill in an attempt to keep the thread focused on its purpose which is President Obama and his record on life.
Thanks jwinch. Sad that people do not know the truth, especially in regards to Obama's Illinois voting record on Infants Born Alive. Some people and the media would rather attempt to re-focus your attention on something else. Fact is Obama supported a form of infanticide, a baby surviving an induced abortion and set anywhere convenient gasping for breath until he/she died. This set him apart even from the most ardent pro-abortion politicians in the nation. Margaret Sanger might be tickled in her grave by someone with this infanticide belief and it fits her philosophies. The facts were suppressed for the 2008 election but I think 2012 will be different thanks to Newt calling out John King. Thank goodness for the Illinois voting records, even the "present" ones speak volumes about the type of person this individual is.
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  #85  
Old Feb 24, '12, 12:23 pm
He Man He Man is offline
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Default Re: Pres. Obama’s pro-abortion record chronicled [Fr. Z]

Quote:
Originally Posted by bellasbane View Post
Where does it say here that Obama would support PBA? Sounds more like he's dodging what he perceives to be a "gotcha" question.

Gotcha question? Please. Is "do you like being tickle-tortured with feathers by a 400 lb. clown?" a gotcha question? Just say yes or no.

If you support a women's right to have a PBA, say so. If you oppose them (as GWB did), say so. It isn't that hard to be honest for most of us.
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  #86  
Old Feb 24, '12, 8:45 pm
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zz912 zz912 is offline
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Default Re: Pres. Obama’s pro-abortion record chronicled [Fr. Z]

Stunning the lengths and mental gymnastics some will go through to allow themselves to support evil. Twisting and contorting to be able to cram Church teaching into your political beliefs, instead of forming your political beliefs to Church teaching.

Obama is pro-abortion. Quit dancing around the subject and admit it. You twist like a pretzel to try and convice yourself that your support of Obama is not material support of the evil he commits. His actions and beliefs are antithetical to the Catholic faith.

Find another Democrat politician to support, but you can't support Obama. If you do, you are choosing a politician against your Church.
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