Catholic FAQ


Latest Threads
newest posts



Go Back   Catholic Answers Forums > Forums > Apologetics > Moral Theology
 

Welcome to Catholic Answers Forums, the largest Catholic Community on the Web.

Here you can join over 400,000 members from around the world discussing all things Catholic. Membership is open to all, Catholic and non-Catholic alike, who seek the Truth with Charity.

To gain full access, you must register for a FREE account. Registered members are able to:
  • Submit questions about the faith to experts from Catholic Answers
  • Participate in all forum discussions
  • Communicate privately with Catholics from around the world
  • Plus join a prayer group, read with the Book Club, and much more.
Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free. So join our community today!

Have a question about registration or your account log-in? Just contact our Support Hotline.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search Thread Display
  #46  
Old Feb 22, '12, 4:37 pm
InSearchofGrace's Avatar
InSearchofGrace InSearchofGrace is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: October 12, 2009
Posts: 2,068
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Homosexuality, causes and treatment

Quote:
Originally Posted by GraceDK View Post
wow, so this is what has become of my thread.

I get the feeling that not one, not one, cared to look at the conference talk by Dr. Nicolosi, but almost everyone is ranting on about
- change is impossible
- the church has no stance
- my gut feeling tells me this and that
- these bad therapists shouldn't be going around promising full recovery to homosexuals!
and even one had the gut to say that offering therapy to people to are very unhappy with their ssa is a violation of human rights.

From now on, everyone please comment when you have already watched the talk.
I am not interested in hearing your personal feelings coloured by the fallen culture we live in.

I grew up in that myself and thought "gays are born like that", until I came across serious research by Joseph Nicolosi, Janelle Hallman, read numerous testimonies on NARTH.com on other media.

You only need to do a few searches on google to see that people have indeed been healed in the name of Jesus from ssa. Whether you believe ssa is a gender deficit or merely a spiritual problem, Jesus is the healer for all.

Dr. Nicolosi himself claims that his successrate is the same as other psychotherapy.. that is, not everyone gets healed, but very many, if they come of themselves, find out the root causes of their gender disorder and actually become able to, although late, to work on identifying with maleness and differentiation from femaleness (if they are male) plus figuring out a heck of a lot more about what is going on and why..

Its worth listening to.
GraceDK,

Your linked video clip is worth a listen. It is not that long, just 9 minutes. Dr. N made clear that his talk was neither about blame nor guilt, but about presenting a developmental model and program that can work for many clients who seek treatment.

I also went on the www.josephnicolosi.com and viewed a 3-part video presentation on the common patterns observed in clients with unwanted same sex attraction. Dr. N, in drawing from his work with young adult and adult clients, stated that the ideal candidate is one who is not forced to therapy by the parents or church to which he/she belongs. In short, a big factor in the success of sexual re-orientation is the motivation of the individual him/herself. Also of interest is Dr. N's definition of cure -- it does not mean a homosexual will never feel sexual attraction to a member of his/her own sex anymore. It is arriving at a stage in life whereby he/she no longer lives around same sex attraction, with reduction of feelings of SSA, and opening of oneself to life as a heterosexual. Another factor is the amount of homosexual experience one brings into therapy. Obviously, it is more difficult for one who is deeply entrenched in the lifestyle to change than one in a situational or non-habitual situation.

In the video link you supplied as the OP, Dr. N raised four myths, the third underlined as some contention arose in discussion of it in this thread:
10% of the population is gay
born gay
once gay always gay
homosexuality is normal in every way
Homosexuals seeking change, and parents and loved ones of youth struggling with homosexuality issues need to be wary as they are not served by a mainstream mental health profession that has partnered with gay activism. These activists are aggressively claiming language and social areas with profound effect on everyone to achieve not just tolerance but total acceptance and normalization of homosexuality, as evidenced by efforts to legalize same sex ‘marriage’ in every state and the grab for adoption rights by homosexual couples of children. Indeed marriage and family are being revamped not insignificantly by moral relativism and tyranny helped along by legislative connections and judicial means.
,
__________________


Meet Agnes Gonxha

~ InSearchofGrace ~
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old Feb 23, '12, 1:18 am
GraceDK GraceDK is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: December 6, 2006
Posts: 3,520
Religion: Catholic Christian
Default Re: Homosexuality, causes and treatment

Quote:
Originally Posted by mitex View Post
michelleds the first night I walked into a ex-gay group shortly after starting RCIA I was told to deny something that was part of me and not tell anyone about it (and this group is sanctioned by the Church).

Because if I was to tell anyone about it that somehow made me a bad person. I got a card referring me to NARTH the first night (supposedly I was under on obligation to change my sexual identity ).

So I went along with it for several months six to be exact. I spent $1000 on a rip off therapist who used abusive techniques such as bioenergetics and aversion therapy.

To make a long story short my feelings only got bigger and stronger from the experience. If you didn't experience an abusive time at ex-gay therapy well then good for you. But I know many people like myself and others who went through the fires of hell and back for nothing but broken promises.

And I know many "ex-gays" who have admitted that their still homosexuals or experience feelings! I cite Alan Chambers and Smid as the two biggest.

Michelleds if you want to believe that you have truly experienced healing and the power of Christ at work. Then go for it and believe it. That's called faith and I can applaud that.

But for me there is no healing. Only reality of dealing with a situation you can't change. That I am a homosexual and nothing I do will change that.
This thread is not for all kinds of groups and oppinions to hijack it.
If people wanna advertise something then please do it elsewhere.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I would like to spread the knowlege of Nicolosi's work and hear especially from people who struggle with ssa, if they find his theories and research usefull for themselves.

Mitex, I am sure you can and do find useless therapies and people who don't understand you.
Precisely because you are struggling with ssa I would like to hear your oppionion about the precise talk by Nicolosi.

Nicolosi does not say that his clients will all be healed or fully have hetero sexual longings. On the contrary, he says that many of the clients still from time to time experience some ssa attraction and longings after they have ended therapy.
But many of them become enabled to experience this far less, many of them actually succeed in successfully identifying with the biologically male identity, feel good around straight males and differentiate themselves from feminie identity (which normally is done in a healthy individual in the genderidentity phase before the age of 3), feel attraction towards women and experience fullfilling marriage (sexual and friendship).
Some of the clients don't feel any improvement. Some of them come for the wrong reasons (eg, their family pressures them to go to therapy) and some just start to know themselves more, and to live without risktaking compulsive sexual behaviour.
Nicolosi also explains why male ssa is far more common than female ssa.

I think the talk is really worth listening to. But you are the target-group, to say if there is anything in his talk that resembles your own situation and past.

Two gay men who went into some program (which I know nothing about) and end up falling back into sexual relationships with each other, well it doesn't prove that nothing ever worked for anybody.
Actually, what I rather noticed is that these guys were looking into such programs in the first place, meaning, there is some fulfillment they already didn't find in the gay lifestyle. They wanted to get out of it.. Then they didn't feel helped, or they gave into temptation, and started rationalizing that it wasn't worth it ever to ask for help in the first place..
There is nothing unsual psychologically speaking, that people have this defence mecanism, and that it brings some kind of relief to act out.
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old Feb 23, '12, 1:23 am
GraceDK GraceDK is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: December 6, 2006
Posts: 3,520
Religion: Catholic Christian
Default Re: Homosexuality, causes and treatment

Quote:
Originally Posted by InSearchofGrace View Post
GraceDK,

Your linked video clip is worth a listen. It is not that long, just 9 minutes. Dr. N made clear that his talk was neither about blame nor guilt, but about presenting a developmental model and program that can work for many clients who seek treatment.

I also went on the www.josephnicolosi.com and viewed a 3-part video presentation on the common patterns observed in clients with unwanted same sex attraction. Dr. N, in drawing from his work with young adult and adult clients, stated that the ideal candidate is one who is not forced to therapy by the parents or church to which he/she belongs. In short, a big factor in the success of sexual re-orientation is the motivation of the individual him/herself. Also of interest is Dr. N's definition of cure -- it does not mean a homosexual will never feel sexual attraction to a member of his/her own sex anymore. It is arriving at a stage in life whereby he/she no longer lives around same sex attraction, with reduction of feelings of SSA, and opening of oneself to life as a heterosexual. Another factor is the amount of homosexual experience one brings into therapy. Obviously, it is more difficult for one who is deeply entrenched in the lifestyle to change than one in a situational or non-habitual situation.

In the video link you supplied as the OP, Dr. N raised four myths, the third underlined as some contention arose in discussion of it in this thread:
10% of the population is gay
born gay
once gay always gay
homosexuality is normal in every way
Homosexuals seeking change, and parents and loved ones of youth struggling with homosexuality issues need to be wary as they are not served by a mainstream mental health profession that has partnered with gay activism. These activists are aggressively claiming language and social areas with profound effect on everyone to achieve not just tolerance but total acceptance and normalization of homosexuality, as evidenced by efforts to legalize same sex ‘marriage’ in every state and the grab for adoption rights by homosexual couples of children. Indeed marriage and family are being revamped not insignificantly by moral relativism and tyranny helped along by legislative connections and judicial means.
,
Wow.. what? I posted the wrong video.. this is the one I wanted to post...the 3-part thing.
No wonder people "comment in east and west" ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjQT4QXBpEQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUhtt...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tm43o...eature=related
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old Feb 23, '12, 3:15 am
Hadrianus Hadrianus is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2011
Posts: 381
Religion: Roman Catholic
Default Re: Homosexuality, causes and treatment

Quote:
Originally Posted by mitex View Post
michelleds the first night I walked into a ex-gay group shortly after starting RCIA I was told to deny something that was part of me and not tell anyone about it (and this group is sanctioned by the Church).

Because if I was to tell anyone about it that somehow made me a bad person. I got a card referring me to NARTH the first night (supposedly I was under on obligation to change my sexual identity ).

So I went along with it for several months six to be exact. I spent $1000 on a rip off therapist who used abusive techniques such as bioenergetics and aversion therapy.

To make a long story short my feelings only got bigger and stronger from the experience. If you didn't experience an abusive time at ex-gay therapy well then good for you. But I know many people like myself and others who went through the fires of hell and back for nothing but broken promises.

And I know many "ex-gays" who have admitted that their still homosexuals or experience feelings! I cite Alan Chambers and Smid as the two biggest.

Michelleds if you want to believe that you have truly experienced healing and the power of Christ at work. Then go for it and believe it. That's called faith and I can applaud that.

But for me there is no healing. Only reality of dealing with a situation you can't change. That I am a homosexual and nothing I do will change that.
Mitex,

I am sorry you were given the impression that the Catholic Church "sanctions" reparative therapy. The Church, in fact, has no opinion on it and you won't find it mentioned in any magisterial document. From what you say it seems that the particular group of Catholics you met endorse it, but they cannot speak for the Church, and it strikes me as odd that they would try to impose it on someone in RCIA.
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old Feb 23, '12, 4:30 pm
LovePatience LovePatience is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: August 12, 2011
Posts: 478
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Homosexuality, causes and treatment

Many forms of therapy are ineffective. Some forms are effective, but they are well researched and for specific symptoms.

Quote:
"In a review of forty-two studies comparing professional therapists with paraprofessional therapists (such as teachers given the job of counseling students), only one study showed that the trained therapists got better results. Twenty-nine studies showed no difference between the two groups, and the remaining twelve studies showed that the paraprofessionals actually outperformed the professional therapists" (p. 130).
http://www.antipsychiatry.org/br-thdel.htm
Reply With Quote
  #51  
Old Feb 23, '12, 6:47 pm
mitex mitex is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: January 26, 2012
Posts: 544
Religion: Protestant Church
Default Re: Homosexuality, causes and treatment

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hadrianus View Post
Mitex,

I am sorry you were given the impression that the Catholic Church "sanctions" reparative therapy. The Church, in fact, has no opinion on it and you won't find it mentioned in any magisterial document. From what you say it seems that the particular group of Catholics you met endorse it, but they cannot speak for the Church, and it strikes me as odd that they would try to impose it on someone in RCIA.
I was referrred to Courage who referred me to NARTH...
__________________
Lead Them Home
Reply With Quote
  #52  
Old Feb 23, '12, 9:54 pm
Hadrianus Hadrianus is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2011
Posts: 381
Religion: Roman Catholic
Default Re: Homosexuality, causes and treatment

Quote:
Originally Posted by mitex View Post
I was referrred to Courage who referred me to NARTH...

I believe that Courage as such is approved by the American bishops; but individual chapters vary as with all such groups. I know it is not a universal practice of Courage to refer people to NARTH, unless of course, they ask to be. The Church herself would never require this.
Reply With Quote
  #53  
Old Feb 24, '12, 2:54 pm
parable1's Avatar
parable1 parable1 is offline
New Member
 
Join Date: January 9, 2012
Posts: 41
Religion: catholic
Default Re: Homosexuality, causes and treatment

honestly I think its mainly they like same sex intamacy. Has nothing to do with genes, dna or anything like that.
Reply With Quote
  #54  
Old Feb 24, '12, 9:07 pm
reallyru4real reallyru4real is offline
Trial Membership
 
Join Date: February 24, 2012
Posts: 2
Religion: catholic
Default Re: Homosexuality, causes and treatment

I just can't understand what you call curing gays when i read vouthon's post "However, some gays have in fact become heterosexual which if anything shows the fluidity of human sexuality, and the fact that we really don't have as yet a through understanding of the human mind and thought processes." I thought many they are saying there hetro because they have people like you saying how wrong they are and trying to screw with them.

you nor does anyone ls have the right to say that gays are wrong or that they are in need of curing. it is not a genetic thing or a choice you just are. if you think that being gay is treatable than by that logic you think anyone can be homosexual so i challenge you for one day be gay go date a guy or something i just don't see what you people don't understand about homosexuality. there have been homosexuals since time began o GET OVER IT
Reply With Quote
  #55  
Old Mar 2, '12, 8:53 pm
RiverTam51 RiverTam51 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: January 18, 2012
Posts: 103
Religion: Deist
Default Re: Homosexuality, causes and treatment

Quote:
Originally Posted by edwest2 View Post
Homosexuals persons must prove to a court, using the latest scientific research, that same-sex marriage will not create problems for society as a whole.
Human sexuality is not fluid. It takes two people to perform a sex act involving an exchange of bodily fluids.
This is frankly ridiculous. Not even the best stock market analysts can accurately predict the implications of a tiny change in the market, much less prove that their predictions will work in a scientific or legal manner. And society is dozens of times more complex than economics.
We do not force biochemical companies to prove that their medicines will never have bad side effects for anyone. We do not force car companies to prove that their cars will never crash. We do not force investment companies to prove that their stock transfers will not hurt the economy. Yes, sometimes there are bad, widely felt results. But to ask people to predict chaotic systems is an impossible task. We ask them to do a reasonable amount of testing, then tentatively approve their action. And when Thalidomide cripples babies, Toyotas' brakes give out, and the economy crashes, we learn from our mistakes.
The evidence so far is that the benefits of allowing gay marriage, on an economic and social level (the happiness of the couple and their ability to own property together), are far better than any deficits. The government, being a non-religious entity, must deal with the issue on this level.
When gay marriage causes a social apocalypse, let me know and I'll petition my senator to ban it.
Reply With Quote
  #56  
Old Mar 2, '12, 9:19 pm
John21652 John21652 is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: December 1, 2009
Posts: 7,979
Religion: Catholic
Send a message via MSN to John21652
Default Re: Homosexuality, causes and treatment

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiverTam51 View Post
This is frankly ridiculous. Not even the best stock market analysts can accurately predict the implications of a tiny change in the market, much less prove that their predictions will work in a scientific or legal manner. And society is dozens of times more complex than economics.
Ever heard of risk management and due diligence? Random, public, usupported stock market predictions can get an individual into a whole lot of trouble. The homosexual marriage issue is not a complicated economic issue, but a standalone social issue which doesn't require rocket science to understand it as something quite disordered and abnormal.
Quote:
We do not force biochemical companies to prove that their medicines will never have bad side effects for anyone.
Yes we do. Ever wondered why it takes so long to get a drug to market? Ever heard of LD tests done with drugs on mice and rabbits? The regulations governing drug research, development, manufacture and marketing are horrendously stringent. All designed to avoid catostrophic impacts of a drug's release onto the market.
Quote:
We do not force car companies to prove that their cars will never crash.
Drivers are tested and licensed in the hope they wont crash a car. Car manufacturers are forced to comply to stringent safety standards during manufacture so that when dumb drivers crash, they might survive. If drivers are too dumb they might even be refused a licence in the interests of public safety.
Quote:
We do not force investment companies to prove that their stock transfers will not hurt the economy.
You are being rediculously selective and a little unreal, because investment companies are governed by laws which make certain transactions illegal; in the national interest, of course.
Quote:
Yes, sometimes there are bad, widely felt results.
And if laws are broken, the national interest is harmed, or individuals pose a public safety hazard, they are dealt with accordingly.
Quote:
But to ask people to predict chaotic systems is an impossible task. We ask them to do a reasonable amount of testing, then tentatively approve their action. And when Thalidomide cripples babies, Toyotas' brakes give out, and the economy crashes, we learn from our mistakes.
That learning also happens to include stricter regulation and quality control throughout the entire process.
Quote:
The evidence so far is that the benefits of allowing gay marriage, on an economic and social level (the happiness of the couple and their ability to own property together), are far better than any deficits.
Well, isn't that a typical utilitarian point of view! Considering how the issue of gay marriage only pertains to around 3% of the population, how is it conceivable that the happiness of the 3%, assuming they wioll all get married and be happy, can possibly outweigh the unhappiness of the majority whose morality is being trashed?
Quote:
The government, being a non-religious entity, must deal with the issue on this level.
What level? A Utilitarian level? So ou advocate a discredited philosophical approach to running government?
Quote:
When gay marriage causes a social apocalypse, let me know and I'll petition my senator to ban it.
You have contradicted your own arguemnt. You mention about learning from the mistakes of things like thalidomide and the lessons learnt result in far more stringent controls and checking before drugs are released onto the market. Yet here, it is Ok to do something first and worry about the consequences later. With that logic, you could argue for less stringent controls on the manufacturing and marketing of anything. Gee, you'd end up being electrocuted by your toaster.
Reply With Quote
  #57  
Old Mar 2, '12, 11:15 pm
RiverTam51 RiverTam51 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: January 18, 2012
Posts: 103
Religion: Deist
Default Re: Homosexuality, causes and treatment

Exactly.
We require small-scale testing to ensure that a car will probably be safe, that a drug will rarely cause side effects, and that a type of stock trading is not unfair or harmful. This quality control is beneficial to all parties, and I am not in any way saying to ignore the data we have or are gathering. Once we see that something is not harmful in most cases, we cautiously allow it on a larger scale. Thalidomide, Toyotas, and the recent stock market crash are all examples of how this can go wrong. But, if we erred on the side of caution, we would have fewer benefits today, which is why we did not place a burden of indefinitely stringent proof on these changes.
No, gay marriage is not a complicated social issue. It is a relatively simple one, although I disagree with you on the morality. But social trends, like economics and the chemistry of the human body, and unlike most areas of rocket science, are a highly chaotic system-making a small change has huge consequences, so we cannot reasonably ask for absolute proof of an outcome.
Long-term homosexual relationships have been around for quite some time now, with no blaring negative consequences for those involved. So, I think that we should legalize these on a larger scale now that we have seen that there are no major issues on the small scale.
And no, I do not mention the "moral dangers" to the gay couple. I firmly believe that God does not punish disobediance of the Bible by those who do not believe in the Bible.
Here, the happiness of the gay 3? 2? 5?% outweighs that of the 47%(Gallup poll) of Americans who are against gay marriage because of the stake they have in it. The majority of people around me disliked that I ate onions today. However, I enjoyed the onions much more than all of them together disliked my breath, so it is good that I can legally eat onions. This is the same reason we ought to illegalize abortion-many women would feel affronted, especially those who would have gotten abortions, but the rights of the babies to life outweighs the rights of the women to nine months of an empty uterus.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Go Back   Catholic Answers Forums > Forums > Apologetics > Moral Theology

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search Thread
Search Thread:

Advanced Search
Display

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



Prayer Intentions

Most Active Groups
8372Meet and talk,talk talk
Last by: Loren42
5102CAF Prayer Warriors Support Group
Last by: mountee
4417Devotion to the Sorrowful Mother
Last by: daughterstm
4037OCD/Scrupulosity Group
Last by: eschator83
3859SOLITUDE
Last by: Prairie Rose
3696Let's empty Purgatory
Last by: RJB
3269Poems and Reflections
Last by: PathWalker
3262Petitions Before the Blessed Sacrament
Last by: Amiciel
3218Catholic Vegetarians & Vegans
Last by: memphian
3093For seniors and shut- ins
Last by: SERVENT FOR GOD



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:53 pm.

Home RSS Feeds - Home - Archive - Top

Copyright © 2004-2014, Catholic Answers.