MERGED Posthumous Mormon Baptisms - Page 7

anp1215 · #91 Feb 24, '12, 12:34 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by PazzoGrande

To me, it's not much different than me praying for the soul of a non-Catholic. Their non-Catholic relatives might appreciate the thought, but they'd never be offended by the act. I believe that it has a beneficial effect for the dead person and it's an act of care for a dead friend.

It seems to me that an LDS posthumous baptism is the same thing. I personally don't believe it has any spiritual benefit, but it's a nice gesture. If someone did that for an ancestor of mine, I appreciate that a person cared enough about a family member to do that. It doesn't change my religion and it certainly doesn't change the religion of the dead person but I'd be grateful that someone did the gesture.

It reminds me of Christopher Hitchens' thought about people praying for him while he was sick. He didn't believe it did anything (who's sorry now?) but he said, if praying for him makes you feel good, then that's good for you and he appreciates the gesture.

well, actually many non-Catholics are offended if you pray for one of their dead relatives. The reason is because they are certain that person is in Heaven because he/she "believed in Jesus" and you suggesting otherwise offends them.

PazzoGrande · #92 Feb 24, '12, 9:28 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by LemonAndLime

To the OP - Would you be offended if a pagan tried to contact your dead relative?

That's a fair point, but I think that is quite different. If a pagan tried to contact a dead relative, it could be offensive because it's as if they are playing with the deceased disrespectfully, using my relative for a ouija board game or to figure out what tomorrow's lottery ticket numbers will be. It's very different from praying or posthumously baptising, because those are acts of care. If the deceased weren't cared about or respected, they wouldn't be prayed for or posthumously baptised. Contacting the deceased for fun is disrespectful.

But aside from that, even then, it still doesn't matter to me.

#1, I studied exorcists' opinions on demons; they don't all agree on whether or not the dead really can have contact with the world (except in cases where they need prayer or are giving an apparition, but always with God's assent); some exorcists believe that when the dead is supposedly conjured, it really is a demon trying to deceive. So, they aren't really talking to my dead relative, and it's their problem that they're summoning up demons, not mine.

#2, Even if they really did summon up my relative, then it is a private matter between the pagan and my relative. My relative can choose to talk back to the person or can refuse (presumably the relative would have the choice to reject it -- it's not as if God would force him to converse with some pagan in the afterlife, right?). If it pleases my dead relative to do so, then it isn't really my business.

#3, I try to communicate with dead people all the time -- I pray to Mary and to the saints and I consider my day a failure if I've neglected my Rosary, and they answer back by helping me with what I pray for. Jesus doesn't mind that I talk to His mom, Saint Theresa's sister's won't mind that I talk to their sister, the Passionists don't mind that I talk to their founder -- in fact, they'd encourage it

Bezant · #93 Feb 24, '12, 9:47 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by PazzoGrande

To me, it's not much different than me praying for the soul of a non-Catholic. Their non-Catholic relatives might appreciate the thought, but they'd never be offended by the act. I believe that it has a beneficial effect for the dead person and it's an act of care for a dead friend.

It seems to me that an LDS posthumous baptism is the same thing. I personally don't believe it has any spiritual benefit, but it's a nice gesture. If someone did that for an ancestor of mine, I appreciate that a person cared enough about a family member to do that. It doesn't change my religion and it certainly doesn't change the religion of the dead person but I'd be grateful that someone did the gesture.

It reminds me of Christopher Hitchens' thought about people praying for him while he was sick. He didn't believe it did anything (who's sorry now?) but he said, if praying for him makes you feel good, then that's good for you and he appreciates the gesture.

Whether or not they mean well or the ritual has spiritual benefit is completely besides the point. At the very least there's privacy issues here that aren't being respected.

KathleenGee · #94 Feb 25, '12, 8:04 am

Mitex...

The Jews and Vatican already told the LDS administration not to do this but they still do.

LemonAndLime · #95 Feb 25, '12, 8:34 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by PazzoGrande

That's a fair point, but I think that is quite different. If a pagan tried to contact a dead relative, it could be offensive because it's as if they are playing with the deceased disrespectfully, using my relative for a ouija board game or to figure out what tomorrow's lottery ticket numbers will be. It's very different from praying or posthumously baptising, because those are acts of care. If the deceased weren't cared about or respected, they wouldn't be prayed for or posthumously baptised. Contacting the deceased for fun is disrespectful.

And baptising someone into a faith when they did not choose to, give permission, or tell the family isn't disrespectful?

Yerusalyim · #96 Feb 25, '12, 8:35 am

As long as no record considered "official" marks the dead as LDS I have no probelm with what the LDS are doing. It's as effective (or ineffective) as me looking at a list of English commoners and declaring them to be the King and Queen of New York.

Jessup · #97 Feb 25, '12, 10:32 am

I don't know what the big deal is either. If someone is dead and therefore made it to the presence of God, he or she isn't going to do a
Micheal J Fox back to the future style photograph fading disappearance.
Cheers!

anp1215 · #98 Feb 25, '12, 10:36 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by LemonAndLime

And baptising someone into a faith when they did not choose to, give permission, or tell the family isn't disrespectful?

I wouldn't care. They're not baptizing them. They are dead. They baptize themselves "on behalf of" the dead person. It's meaningless nonsense.

If a pagan tried to contact my dead relative, I wouldn't care. I would say the same thing to them as I do to the Mormon dead "baptizers"-Have fun wasting your time!

LemonAndLime · #99 Feb 25, '12, 11:31 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by anp1215

I wouldn't care. They're not baptizing them. They are dead. They baptize themselves "on behalf of" the dead person. It's meaningless nonsense.

If a pagan tried to contact my dead relative, I wouldn't care. I would say the same thing to them as I do to the Mormon dead "baptizers"-Have fun wasting your time!

Well, that's you.

Other people feel differently and I think they have a right in doing so.

andrewstx · #**100** Feb 25, '12, 11:55 am

I do think it is a big deal, and disrespecful to the deceased and the family. If the person wanted to be Mormon they would have became Mormon during their lifetime.

It's like the Mormons thumb their noses at others and imply, "now that she/he is dead they know better".

Bezant · #**101** Feb 25, '12, 12:32 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewstx

I do think it is a big deal, and disrespecful to the deceased and the family. If the person wanted to be Mormon they would have became Mormon during their lifetime.

And where's the disclosure? I wouldn't give my grandfather's information to anyone if I knew he or she planned to "baptise" his soul by proxy, or if I knew his organisation would be careless with his information.

PazzoGrande · #**102** Feb 25, '12, 1:28 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by LemonAndLime

And baptising someone into a faith when they did not choose to, give permission, or tell the family isn't disrespectful?

But to be fair, the Mormons say that a posthumous baptism is only effective if the person in the afterlife accepts it. Let's say their theology is right; it still would be up to the person to decide to accept it or not. It doesn't seem disrespectful to give the dead person a choice. Their baptisms have no effect, it isn't a forced baptism.

If the baptisms were done by force, then that's a much different story and that would be disrespectful.

LemonAndLime · #**103** Feb 25, '12, 1:32 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by PazzoGrande

But to be fair, the Mormons say that a posthumous baptism is only effective if the person in the afterlife accepts it. Let's say their theology is right; it still would be up to the person to decide to accept it or not. It doesn't seem disrespectful to give the dead person a choice. Their baptisms have no effect, it isn't a forced baptism.

If the baptisms were done by force, then that's a much different story and that would be disrespectful.

Okay, so how would you feel if a pagan said they were casting spells for your dead relative?

PazzoGrande · #**104** Feb 25, '12, 1:35 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by LemonAndLime

Okay, so how would you feel if a pagan said they were casting spells for your dead relative?

I'm afraid I fail to see the analogy. But I'd probably try to be suppressing my laughter if they did that.

LemonAndLime · #**105** Feb 25, '12, 2:20 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by PazzoGrande

I'm afraid I fail to see the analogy. But I'd probably try to be suppressing my laughter if they did that.

A pagan casting a spell over your death relative isn't that much difference to a posthumous baptism, if you look at it from a theological point of view.