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  #151  
Old Feb 24, '12, 7:26 am
paul c paul c is offline
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Default Re: How to respond to "Jesus already died...my sins are forgiven" logics

Quote:
Originally Posted by DPMartin View Post
The first person to be associated to Grace is Noah, notice him and his were saved from Elohimís judgement of all the flesh on the face of the earth.

Gen:6:8: But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD (YHWH) .

Note, that in his site is Grace.
you are misled on this account. First of all, there is no distinction between God the creator, who you are calling Elohim for some reason, and the God who told Moses that " I am who am", YHWH. They are one and the same. Secondly, Noah was not the first man to have God's grace. There are two kinds of grace. Sanctifying grace, which is the indwelling of the holy spirit that comes with baptism and was unavailable prior to Jesus' sacrifice. In contrast, actual grace, which is God acting on us to bring us to him, is available to every man. Noah was favored by God in Genesis 6:8, but Enoch walked with God in Genesis 5:24.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DPMartin View Post
The Israelites were aware of the Father Son and Holy Spirit, it was new to the gentiles back in the day when the Gospel was spreading through out the world but this was known by the Israelites way back. What do you think the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob means? The father, the sacrificed son, and Children of Israel (Jacob) those born of the Holy Spirit.
I seet that you have a great misunderstanding of the Trinity. Abraham is not the Father, Isaac is not the sacrificed son and Jacob is not the Holy Spirit. While the Old testament pointed to the Trinity in many ways, the true Trinitarian nature of God was never understood until Jesus came to explain it. Are you familiar with the Nicene Creed. It is the simplist and most fundamental prayer that explains what Catholic's believe about God:
I believe in one God, the Father almighty,maker of heaven and earth,of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ,the Only Begotten Son of God,born of the Father before all ages.God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God,begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father; through him all things were made. For us men and for our salvation he came down from heaven, and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary, and became man. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate, he suffered death and was buried, and rose again on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures.
He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead and his kingdom will have no end.

And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son, who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified, who has spoken through the prophets.

And one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church. I confess one baptism for the forgiveness of sins and I look forward to the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen.



Quote:
Originally Posted by DPMartin View Post

The Word of the Creator and Judge is established in the Presence of the Creator and Judge, is seen in the very first chapter of Genesis. And the rest of the Bible is about the Lord, (YHWH) (the Word of God in the Presence of God) Elohimís relationship with men.
I must ask, where did you ever get this view? It is far from that understood by Catholics an dmainline Protesnt denominations. Who's innovation is it?


Quote:
Originally Posted by DPMartin View Post
It is stupid to think there is no need for repentance in relationship to Grace. It is also stupid to think that looking to the Lord (Godís Grace) has nothing to do with repentance. You have to repent to be received and saved. But after that its correction and being reproved by the Lord because He Loves you. King Davidís experience is of this

Ps:23:4: Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.
This doesn't in any way say that you are allowed to sin freely after your acceptance into the Church. It simply says that David trusted in the Lord to protect him from evil.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DPMartin View Post
The Lord corrects you to His Truth and Way and Life, He doesnít condemn His own.
Once you turn away from God in sin, you are no longer his own. You have fallen from grace.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DPMartin View Post
Once saved its not about condemnation, there is no condemnation in the Lord Jesus.
This is clearly not true. First of all, if you fall from a boat into the water and you are saved when someone pulls you back in, that doesn't keep you from falling in again. So it is with sin. If you fall into sin and you are saved, if you fall back into sin, you will need to be saved again, or else you will drown. And as for Jesus not condemning, you are clearly not very familiar with the Gospel. Did he not turn away the evil doers, who were calling him "Lord", in Matthew 7: 21-23?


Quote:
Originally Posted by DPMartin View Post
There is Grace and Truth in Godís site. If your concerned about the proverb about the seed on rocks and good ground and such, it not your problem, the Lord said this is the way it is. Your not responsible, as long as your not the one making the ground hard and resistant. The Lord knows how to get the ground plowed, so that it may receive.

the Lord be with you Paul C
The purpose of this parable was to show that not every seed planted by the sower bears fruit and that many turn away for a variety of reasons. Frankly, the reason you don't understand this is because as Jesus says in between the parable of the sower and the explanation of its meaning in Mark 4, everything hs been given to his Church but to those on the outside,, they look and see but do not percieve. But don't loose heart. The Church is open to all that want to enter. You just have to open your heart to the truth.
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  #152  
Old Feb 24, '12, 7:48 am
fhansen fhansen is online now
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Default Re: How to respond to "Jesus already died...my sins are forgiven" logics

Bible verses supporting both sides of this issue can be brought up but a lot of this question can be answered by common sense. God did not create man to sin. Sin is unnatural for man, natural as it may often seem going by the behavior of this fallen world. He also didnít give man laws he couldnít possibly obey, blame man for not obeying them anyway, and then cast man out of the garden into a world of pain, suffering, and death just to be capricious. If that were the case, God would be the "author of sin". Godís purpose is to restore justice and order to his fallen creation, by putting His laws on our hearts and writing them in our minds, to quote the most important New Covenant prophesy from Jer 31. So Jesus didnít tell the woman simply, ďYouíre sins are forgivenĒ; He also included, ďGo, and sin no more.Ē Our past sins are forgiven and forgotten for that very purpose-to give us a fresh start, to make new creations out of us, literally, ontological, not mere ďimputedlyĒ, and not by our own power but by the power of the Holy Spirit which weíre promised to receive so that God can be the God of man again; the relation lost at the Fall can be restored, true communion of man and God is realized. This is a process, whereby the Potter seeks to re-create us into beings who truly love Him with their whole heart, soul, mind, and strength and their neighbor as themselves.
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  #153  
Old Feb 24, '12, 8:49 am
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nickybr38 nickybr38 is offline
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Default Re: How to respond to "Jesus already died...my sins are forgiven" logics

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Originally Posted by fhansen View Post
Bible verses supporting both sides of this issue can be brought up but a lot of this question can be answered by common sense. God did not create man to sin. Sin is unnatural for man, natural as it may often seem going by the behavior of this fallen world. He also didnít give man laws he couldnít possibly obey, blame man for not obeying them anyway, and then cast man out of the garden into a world of pain, suffering, and death just to be capricious. If that were the case, God would be the "author of sin". Godís purpose is to restore justice and order to his fallen creation, by putting His laws on our hearts and writing them in our minds, to quote the most important New Covenant prophesy from Jer 31. So Jesus didnít tell the woman simply, ďYouíre sins are forgivenĒ; He also included, ďGo, and sin no more.Ē Our past sins are forgiven and forgotten for that very purpose-to give us a fresh start, to make new creations out of us, literally, ontological, not mere ďimputedlyĒ, and not by our own power but by the power of the Holy Spirit which weíre promised to receive so that God can be the God of man again; the relation lost at the Fall can be restored, true communion of man and God is realized. This is a process, whereby the Potter seeks to re-create us into beings who truly love Him with their whole heart, soul, mind, and strength and their neighbor as themselves.
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  #154  
Old Feb 24, '12, 10:31 am
QuickCat QuickCat is offline
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Default Re: How to respond to "Jesus already died...my sins are forgiven" logics

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Originally Posted by nickybr38 View Post
We could play the swap Bible verses game all day, by the way.

1. Thy kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven - the Church on earth is in harmony with the Church in heaven. It helps if you recite the whole prayer instead of half of it. We are praying that we continue to be in harmony with those who have gone before us, the Saints in heaven who are with the Father and the Church militant who are still on this earth.


2. I did mean Matthew 15:8, thanks for catching that. Matthew 15:24? Really? Why don't you explain it to me? More importantly, explain how it counters 15:8?

3. Works are absolutely not forbidden. Works we do just for show are forbidden but God COMMANDS us to do good works. He commands us to feed the poor, He commands us to love (an action, not a feeling), He commands us to ACT on our faith.

Really, my point in posting the verses was not to debate with you because I have no desire to, but to point out to you that we could swap Bible verses forever that seem to contradict your point and mine. So what's the point of quoting Bible verses?
I quote Bible verses because the Word of God is "..alive and powerful... The Bible is the very foundation of the Christian faith.

#1. In the prayer of Mt 6:9-15 Our Lord warned the Jews, to whom He was speaking, not to pray as "..the heathen [i.e., Gentiles] do..." vs 7,8. And the kingdom of heaven is the earthly kingdom promised to Israel by the O.T. prophets. The Jews were told to pray for this "kingdom to come." The Body of Christ is not in view here.
#2 The Lord Jesus Christ says: ".....I AM NOT SENT BUT UNTO THE LOST SHEEP OF THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL...." This, of course, in His first advent. Paul confirms this in Romans 15:8 that our Lord Jesus Christ "...was a minister to the circumcision ... to CONFIRM THE PROMISES MADE UNTO THE FATHERS." At the time of the first coming the nation of Israel was under the Law and in Covenant relationship with God.
#3 I have no quarrel with you if you say that we are saved unto good works, but if you say that we are saved BY good works the Bible [rightly divided] and I totally disagree with you. Paul makes it so clear in Romans 4 and Ephesians 2 that works have no part in the plan of salvation in this dispensation of the grace of God. And I would remind you that when you bring in the Jewish book of James to "prove" that faith plus works save us you are in effect putting us back under the Law.

Question: Is 1 Cor. 15:1-4 the gospel that saves us?

Be of good cheer, the Lord is coming in the air soon to catch up all believers in the Lord Jesus Christ. We are to be proclaiming this great truth and watching for it.

Grace and Peace,
QC
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  #155  
Old Feb 24, '12, 3:49 pm
Philthy Philthy is offline
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Default Re: How to respond to "Jesus already died...my sins are forgiven" logics

Quote:
Originally Posted by QuickCat View Post
I quote Bible verses because the Word of God is "..alive and powerful... The Bible is the very foundation of the Christian faith.
Really? The Bible is the foundation of the Christian faith? I thought that is what the Church was. The Church precedes the Bible and revealed it to the world. In addition, the Bible calls the Church the "pillar and FOUNDATION of truth".
Quote:
I have no quarrel with you if you say that we are saved unto good works, but if you say that we are saved BY good works the Bible [rightly divided] and I totally disagree with you. Paul makes it so clear in Romans 4 and Ephesians 2 that works have no part in the plan of salvation
Paul never says that works "have no part in the plan of salvation", QC. What he says in Ephesians is, "for by grace you have been saved...apart from works". He is talking about their coming to faith in Christ - their initiation into the family of God, which is entirely by grace through faith and not as a result of works. But to assume - as you have - that this means that works "have no part in salvation" is to confuse "having been saved" with remaining saved and to confuse it with going to Heaven. They are all parts of "salvation", but they are not all the same thing. We have a life to live after we are adopted into the family of God (by grace apart from works) which involves us living the life we are called to live by God. God will provide sufficient grace for us to overcome the obstacles that Satan/the world will through at us (1Cor 10:13) but we need to cooperate with that grace. We need to persevere in faith and we need to avoid serious sin. It is all by grace, and if we take advantage of the gift of grace given to us we remain saved, if we don't...well, I'll let the very same letter to the Ephesians speak:" Immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be mentioned among you...no immoral or impure or greedy person, that is, an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God." He's talking to those who "have been saved" and he's warning them that if they can lose that gift. It isn't that complicated and it has nothing to do with "dividing the word rightly".

Blessings!
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  #156  
Old Feb 24, '12, 4:26 pm
QuickCat QuickCat is offline
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Default Re: How to respond to "Jesus already died...my sins are forgiven" logics

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Originally Posted by Philthy View Post
Hi QuickCat!
Do you believe that once someone is "saved" that they can't, through the temptations of the world or through being misled, fall from grace and, should they die in that state, go to Hell? Yes or No please - followed by any explanations you deem appropriate.
Blessings!
The way you have worded the question makes a YES or NO answer difficult. What you want to know is: Can a saved person be lost? The answer is NO!

Whatsoever God doeth is forever. He saved me and He provides the way for me to remain saved. His Holy Spirit sealed me until the redemption of my body.

Questions for you: If you can be lost after being saved, in what sense were you ever saved in the first place? If the Holy Spirit seals you who can break that seal? Can you ever be absolutely sure that you were saved in the first place?

Grace and Peace,
QC
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  #157  
Old Feb 25, '12, 5:31 am
Philthy Philthy is offline
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Default Re: How to respond to "Jesus already died...my sins are forgiven" logics

[quote=QuickCat;9001792]
Quote:
The way you have worded the question makes a YES or NO answer difficult.
No it doesnt, you are simply not accustomed to answering questions directly.
Quote:
What you want to know is: Can a saved person be lost? The answer is NO!
I think you are mistaken and I am sure that there is nothing in Scripture that makes this specific claim and I'm sure that there are many things in Scripture that directly contradict it.
Quote:
Whatsoever God doeth is forever.
This is a pure fabrication dressed up in some attempt at old English and thrust upon us to rationalize your claim that precedes. I'm not persuaded in the least by such folly. There are a number of logical and theological and Scriptural problems with it.
Quote:
He saved me and He provides the way for me to remain saved.
Correct.
Quote:
His Holy Spirit sealed me until the redemption of my body.
Im not sure of the relevance of this claim to whether one can ultimately, after being sealed, be condemned.
Quote:
Questions for you: If you can be lost after being saved, in what sense were you ever saved in the first place?
Simple: in the sense that I was separated from God by sin - original and actual - and I was saved by being united to the Redemptive work of Christ and empowered by His grace to continue - in faith, hope and love - toward my ultimate salvific goal: being judged worthy of entering into God's unveiled presence for all eternity (Heaven).
Quote:
If the Holy Spirit seals you who can break that seal?
Again, I'm not sure of the relationship between being "sealed" and whether or not one actually goes to Heaven. Can you provide a clear link - specifically is there a reference that no one who goes to Hell was ever sealed with the HS in their earthly life?
Quote:
Can you ever be absolutely sure that you were saved in the first place?
My answer is yes, leaving considerable room for the definition of the term "absolutely sure". Are you ready to get back down to earth and deal with the multitude of NT Scripture that deals with losing salvation?

Blessings!
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  #158  
Old Feb 25, '12, 8:47 am
DPMartin DPMartin is offline
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Default Re: How to respond to "Jesus already died...my sins are forgiven" logics

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Originally Posted by paul c View Post
you are misled on this account. First of all, there is no distinction between God the creator, who you are calling Elohim for some reason, and the God who told Moses that " I am who am", YHWH. I must ask, where did you ever get this view? It is far from that understood by Catholics an dmainline Protesnt denominations. Who's innovation is it?
It is true they are One but yet you say trinity. Why? Could it be that the Word of God (the Son of God) is from God, in His Presence. Just as what we say is from us in our presence. (other than repeating God's Word of course)


Elohim is Hebrew for Creator and Judge which in the Tora as in the Book of Genesis the first chapter only the word Elohim is written where you see the word God in English. Not for example; the Lord God, or in KJV the LORD God. Now when the Spirit of God (Godís Presence) moved upon the face of the waters. No one else was there but God, so why would He speak in order to let there be Light? Unless it was to establish His Word, which is from Him the Creator and Judge in His Presence in His Creation. Isnít Jesus the Word of God, from God? When LORD is written in KJV it means YHWH said Yahweh, and when converted Jews refer to Jesus they say Yahweh. And if you notice the Creator and Judgeís relationship to all things created, is through His Word in His Presence which is and was established from the beginning and forever.

Jn:1:1: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2: The same was in the beginning with God.
3: All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4: In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

In Chapter two in Genesis after creation is complete then the LORD God is written.

Ge:2:4: These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,


The Gospel message is not something new, but was fulfilled in Christ.

Gen:3:15: And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Interesting that she was help meet for Adam. And so was Sara for Abraham in Godís Promise to Abraham and so was the Virgin Mary, for all mankind in Godís Promise to all mankind fulfilled at the Cross.

Note that:

Adam associated to the body (the flesh) that cannot justify itself to be in Godís site. Of which Adam had no problem with before hand.

Gen:38: And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.

The body of Christ is justified to be in Godís site. Isnít He risen and sitting at the right hand of God (Creator and Judge)

Note that the bread is required to sustain the body (flesh), and the body of Christ, the Bread of Life, is to sustain the Life which is of Him.

Noah found Grace in the Lordís site, hence the Grace that saves man from Godís Judgement of all flesh. And the wine representative of the blood the life of the body (note all today are children of Noah.) The life of the body of Christ the blood represented by wine and when the judgement of death comes if it sees the blood of the Lamb it moves on.

Hence by Grace are you saved.


Abraham the man of Faith, and of the man of faith where the Children of Israel through the sacrificed son Isaac.
So by Grace (Noah) are you saved (from Godís Judgement, of all flesh) through Faith (Abraham) and the King of Salem (now Jerusalem) and Priest of the Most High God brings the bread and the wine to Abraham.

Hence by Grace are you saved through Faith to live in the Kingdom of God.

For the God of Abraham (the father) and Isaac (the sacrificed son) and Jacob (representative of the Holy Spirit) (named Israel by Lord God) who received through the son Isaac, the Children of Israel of the twelve sons of Israel is the kingdom of Israel.

The Gospel message is as old as Genesis itself. Fulfilled in Christ Jesus.

Also you might read the Book of Enoch, you just might learn something. I suggest chapter XL
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  #159  
Old Feb 25, '12, 4:46 pm
Chowmah Chowmah is offline
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Default Re: How to respond to "Jesus already died...my sins are forgiven" logics

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Originally Posted by callmeChris View Post
People think that just because Jesus died and rose again, that we are 100% free from sin and God is no longer counting our sins. that we will automatically go to Heaven just because we accept Jesus, which I think is stupid. How as a Catholic do I respond to these Universalist ideas.
Ive found that the reasoning behind the no sin doctrines is the abolishing of Gods law. The Word says sin is the transgression of the law. Theyre takin one liners (that for the most part are speaking of circumcsion} out of context and make the claim the law has been made void.
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  #160  
Old Feb 25, '12, 5:58 pm
Philthy Philthy is offline
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Default Re: How to respond to "Jesus already died...my sins are forgiven" logics

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Originally Posted by DPMartin View Post
It is true they are One but yet you say trinity. Why?
This issue was settled so long ago...over 1600 years ago...by the same Holy Spirit guided authority which canonized the very Scriptures you cherish. Here, let me help you:

We believe in one God,
the Father Almighty...
And in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God.
Eternally begotten of the Father
God from God, Light from Light
True God from True God
One in being with the Father
Through Him all things were made
By the power of the Holy Spirit He was born of the virgin Mary and became man...
We beleive in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son. With the Father and Son He is worshiped and glorified...He has spoken through the prophets...

It remains unfortunate - and prideful IMHO - that you and others (ie QC) consider yourselves intellectually and spiritually superior in wisdom and teaching authority to those whom Jesus instructed and to those who held that faith taught to them and passed in on to others who did the same. In a sense you have become your own Pope except that you can't in any way trace your teaching back to the Apostles, can't trace your spiritual heritage to them through the succession of laying on of hands, and, basically, are just another voice in the crowd - and a relatively weak one at that.

Blessings
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  #161  
Old Feb 26, '12, 3:54 am
QuickCat QuickCat is offline
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Default Re: How to respond to "Jesus already died...my sins are forgiven" logics

[quote=Philthy;9003325]
Quote:
Originally Posted by QuickCat View Post
No it doesnt, you are simply not accustomed to answering questions directly.
I think you are mistaken and I am sure that there is nothing in Scripture that makes this specific claim and I'm sure that there are many things in Scripture that directly contradict it.

This is a pure fabrication dressed up in some attempt at old English and thrust upon us to rationalize your claim that precedes. I'm not persuaded in the least by such folly. There are a number of logical and theological and Scriptural problems with it.

Correct.

Im not sure of the relevance of this claim to whether one can ultimately, after being sealed, be condemned.

Simple: in the sense that I was separated from God by sin - original and actual - and I was saved by being united to the Redemptive work of Christ and empowered by His grace to continue - in faith, hope and love - toward my ultimate salvific goal: being judged worthy of entering into God's unveiled presence for all eternity (Heaven).
Again, I'm not sure of the relationship between being "sealed" and whether or not one actually goes to Heaven. Can you provide a clear link - specifically is there a reference that no one who goes to Hell was ever sealed with the HS in their earthly life?

My answer is yes, leaving considerable room for the definition of the term "absolutely sure". Are you ready to get back down to earth and deal with the multitude of NT Scripture that deals with losing salvation?
Blessings!
I do answer questions directly with Scripture. . Ec 3:14 I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him. (KJV)
I don't quite see what your problem is inre the sealing of the Holy Spirit. This sealing is of God, I can't break it and He won't break it. It is the "earnest of my redemption and inheritance." I am a "purchased possession" of God. Eph. 1:14; 4:30.
Can you provide me with Scripture that says when one is sealed by God he can still be lost? Not much of a seal if this can occur.
I pray that you are sealed by the Holy Spirit, if so, you are secure in Him.
Grace and Peace,
QC
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  #162  
Old Feb 26, '12, 5:36 am
DPMartin DPMartin is offline
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Default Re: How to respond to "Jesus already died...my sins are forgiven" logics

Quote:
Originally Posted by Philthy View Post
This issue was settled so long ago...over 1600 years ago...by the same Holy Spirit guided authority which canonized the very Scriptures you cherish. Here, let me help you:

We believe in one God,
the Father Almighty...
And in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God.
Eternally begotten of the Father
God from God, Light from Light
True God from True God
One in being with the Father
Through Him all things were made
By the power of the Holy Spirit He was born of the virgin Mary and became man...
We beleive in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son. With the Father and Son He is worshiped and glorified...He has spoken through the prophets...
I donít recollect saying anything contrary to this.


Quote:
It remains unfortunate - and prideful IMHO - that you and others (ie QC) consider yourselves intellectually and spiritually superior in wisdom and teaching authority to those whom Jesus instructed and to those who held that faith taught to them and passed in on to others who did the same. In a sense you have become your own Pope except that you can't in any way trace your teaching back to the Apostles, can't trace your spiritual heritage to them through the succession of laying on of hands, and, basically, are just another voice in the crowd - and a relatively weak one at that.

Blessings


What is established, sits at the Right Hand of the Almighty.

Mt:24:35: Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
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  #163  
Old Feb 26, '12, 11:40 am
paul c paul c is offline
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Default Re: How to respond to "Jesus already died...my sins are forgiven" logics

Quote:
Originally Posted by DPMartin View Post
It is true they are One but yet you say trinity. Why? Could it be that the Word of God (the Son of God) is from God, in His Presence. Just as what we say is from us in our presence. (other than repeating God's Word of course)


Elohim is Hebrew for Creator and Judge which in the Tora as in the Book of Genesis the first chapter only the word Elohim is written where you see the word God in English. Not for example; the Lord God, or in KJV the LORD God. Now when the Spirit of God (Godís Presence) moved upon the face of the waters. No one else was there but God, so why would He speak in order to let there be Light? Unless it was to establish His Word, which is from Him the Creator and Judge in His Presence in His Creation. Isnít Jesus the Word of God, from God? When LORD is written in KJV it means YHWH said Yahweh, and when converted Jews refer to Jesus they say Yahweh. And if you notice the Creator and Judgeís relationship to all things created, is through His Word in His Presence which is and was established from the beginning and forever.

Jn:1:1: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2: The same was in the beginning with God.
3: All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4: In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

In Chapter two in Genesis after creation is complete then the LORD God is written.

Ge:2:4: These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,


The Gospel message is not something new, but was fulfilled in Christ.

Gen:3:15: And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Interesting that she was help meet for Adam. And so was Sara for Abraham in Godís Promise to Abraham and so was the Virgin Mary, for all mankind in Godís Promise to all mankind fulfilled at the Cross.

Note that:

Adam associated to the body (the flesh) that cannot justify itself to be in Godís site. Of which Adam had no problem with before hand.

Gen:38: And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.

The body of Christ is justified to be in Godís site. Isnít He risen and sitting at the right hand of God (Creator and Judge)

Note that the bread is required to sustain the body (flesh), and the body of Christ, the Bread of Life, is to sustain the Life which is of Him.

Noah found Grace in the Lordís site, hence the Grace that saves man from Godís Judgement of all flesh. And the wine representative of the blood the life of the body (note all today are children of Noah.) The life of the body of Christ the blood represented by wine and when the judgement of death comes if it sees the blood of the Lamb it moves on.

Hence by Grace are you saved.


Abraham the man of Faith, and of the man of faith where the Children of Israel through the sacrificed son Isaac.
So by Grace (Noah) are you saved (from Godís Judgement, of all flesh) through Faith (Abraham) and the King of Salem (now Jerusalem) and Priest of the Most High God brings the bread and the wine to Abraham.

Hence by Grace are you saved through Faith to live in the Kingdom of God.

For the God of Abraham (the father) and Isaac (the sacrificed son) and Jacob (representative of the Holy Spirit) (named Israel by Lord God) who received through the son Isaac, the Children of Israel of the twelve sons of Israel is the kingdom of Israel.

The Gospel message is as old as Genesis itself. Fulfilled in Christ Jesus.

Also you might read the Book of Enoch, you just might learn something. I suggest chapter XL
You have gone way off into the weeds with your personal theology based apparently on the non-canonical book of Enoch. This is way beyond the scope of thi thread, which is focused on the concept of once saved, always saved. Both Philthy and I have pointed you to the Nicene in rebutal to your views on the trinity in this post as demonstration that they have strayed from Christian beliefs. If you want to discuss yoru alterntive view of the three persons in one God, start another thread.
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  #164  
Old Feb 26, '12, 12:52 pm
Philthy Philthy is offline
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Default Re: How to respond to "Jesus already died...my sins are forgiven" logics

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul c View Post
You have gone way off into the weeds with your personal theology based apparently on the non-canonical book of Enoch. This is way beyond the scope of thi thread, which is focused on the concept of once saved, always saved. Both Philthy and I have pointed you to the Nicene in rebutal to your views on the trinity in this post as demonstration that they have strayed from Christian beliefs. If you want to discuss yoru alterntive view of the three persons in one God, start another thread.
Agreed.
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  #165  
Old Feb 26, '12, 1:25 pm
Philthy Philthy is offline
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Default Re: How to respond to "Jesus already died...my sins are forgiven" logics

Quote:
Originally Posted by QuickCat View Post
I do answer questions directly with Scripture. .
Im gonna hold you to that!
Quote:
Ec 3:14 I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him. (KJV)
I stand corrected - sorry. I'm still not sure how it relates to the topic at hand.
Quote:
I don't quite see what your problem is inre the sealing of the Holy Spirit.
You dont need to see it, you just need to answer the questions!
Quote:
This sealing is of God, I can't break it and He won't break it. It is the "earnest of my redemption and inheritance." I am a "purchased possession" of God. Eph. 1:14; 4:30.
Can you provide me with Scripture that says when one is sealed by God he can still be lost? Not much of a seal if this can occur.
Well, since you cited - rightly so - that Paul speaks to the Ephesians who were sealed with the Spirit (4:30), lets go to the very next chapter. Eph 5:3
Immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be mentioned among you, as is fitting among holy ones
The "you" he speaks of here is the very same "you" he was speaking to when he said in verse 30 "do not grieve the holy Spirit by whom YOU were sealed...", Agreed?
Now, look at what he says to them...
Immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be mentioned among you, as is fitting among holy ones...Be sure of this, that no immoral or impure or greedy person, that is, an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
No inheritance in the kingdom Christ and of God, QC. What do you suppose that means? I think it means that those who are sealed with the Holy Spirit can lose the inheritance that they had in Heaven - their salvation.
I know you will resist this conclusion - most likely by wrongly dividing salvation and the inheritance Paul mentions or you might try and claim that this verse(only 3 verses after the one you quoted) somehow isn't written to the same "you" as your verse. I am prepared to provide further Scriptural evidence to support my position, but I'll give you the opportunity to respond first so that I can meet your objections directly rather than presuming.
One thing is abundantly clear however - your claim that "whatsoever God does He does forever" applies to all of God's actions in the manner you attempted to present it is no longer reconcilable with some clear facts. For it is God who established an inheritance and God who says it can be lost.
Quote:
I pray that you are sealed by the Holy Spirit, if so, you are secure in Him.
Grace and Peace,
QC
Do not fear QC, except with a holy fear that keeps you resolute and awake with the shield of faith to protect you on the dangerous road we travel called mortal life. God will indeed provide a way out that we can bear the trials of this life (1cor10:13) and we must be careful not to allow attractive arguments to weaken our will to "take up your cross daily and follow " Him. For, as Paul says in the very same chapter to the Ephesians: Let no one deceive you with empty arguments, for because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the disobedient.

blessings
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