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  #1  
Old Feb 21, '12, 9:06 pm
Bezant Bezant is offline
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Default Any good reading on Christology?

I'm afraid I know very little about it. Does anyone know of any good articles or books?
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  #2  
Old Feb 21, '12, 9:15 pm
LovePatience LovePatience is offline
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Default Re: Any good reading on Christology?

Fr. Amorth's an Interview with An Exorcist provided me with a few bits of unknown information on Christ, but I am also interested in the answer to this question.
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  #3  
Old Feb 24, '12, 9:46 am
Alterum Alterum is offline
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Default Re: Any good reading on Christology?

Can you be a bit more specific? You can read about Christology in virtually any area of theology, and in some areas of philosophy (like metaphysics).
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  #4  
Old Feb 24, '12, 9:55 am
Cristiano Cristiano is offline
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Default Re: Any good reading on Christology?

Gospel of Mark!
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  #5  
Old Feb 25, '12, 6:37 am
levinas12 levinas12 is offline
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Default Re: Any good reading on Christology?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alterum View Post
Can you be a bit more specific? You can read about Christology in virtually any area of theology, and in some areas of philosophy (like metaphysics).
I have a question for you that's specific. Jesus has both a divine intellect and a divine will, and, additionally, a human intellect and a human will. I understand that there is only one divine intellect and one divine will, i.e., the Father, Son and Holy Spirit have the same divine intellect and divine will. Even though they are persons, they do not have their own separate divine intellect and divine will.

Do you know an authoritative cite for this? Perhaps somewhere in the Summa but I can't find it (other than the article on divine simplicity which does not specifically say one divine intellect and one divine will).
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  #6  
Old Feb 25, '12, 7:10 am
Alterum Alterum is offline
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Default Re: Any good reading on Christology?

Quote:
Originally Posted by levinas12 View Post
I have a question for you that's specific. Jesus has both a divine intellect and a divine will, and, additionally, a human intellect and a human will. I understand that there is only one divine intellect and one divine will, i.e., the Father, Son and Holy Spirit have the same divine intellect and divine will. Even though they are persons, they do not have their own separate divine intellect and divine will.

Do you know an authoritative cite for this? Perhaps somewhere in the Summa but I can't find it (other than the article on divine simplicity which does not specifically say one divine intellect and one divine will).
Levinas, while the Summa is authoritative in some respects, it isn't a dogmatically authoritative document (as I'm sure you know), so I'd look to Chalcedon. In its Definition of Faith, it makes an explicit anti-Nestorian claim by rejecting a two-subject Christology. Remember that Nestorius thought that the divine will of the Word, and the human will of the human subject of the hypostatic union, were separate but conjoined. The Council was reacting against Nestorianism specifically when it asserted, on the contrary, that Christ has two natures in one subject (hypostasis) with "no separation". So I don't think it's right to say that Christ had two separate wills. The Council still allows for the predication of properties like "suffering" to Christ, but they are predicated of the human nature instead of the divine nature. Does that help?
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  #7  
Old Feb 25, '12, 9:02 am
Cristiano Cristiano is offline
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Default Re: Any good reading on Christology?

Quote:
Originally Posted by levinas12 View Post
I have a question for you that's specific. Jesus has both a divine intellect and a divine will, and, additionally, a human intellect and a human will. I understand that there is only one divine intellect and one divine will, i.e., the Father, Son and Holy Spirit have the same divine intellect and divine will. Even though they are persons, they do not have their own separate divine intellect and divine will.

Do you know an authoritative cite for this? Perhaps somewhere in the Summa but I can't find it (other than the article on divine simplicity which does not specifically say one divine intellect and one divine will).
I do not know of any document that discusses that point but I think that we can get to it through reason. If three persons have three separate wills and three separate intellects then are three beings thus three gods. To be the same unique God the three persons must be of the same being (of the same substance) thus same intellect and will. If you look at Jesus in the garden during the agony you can see that He had to align his human will to the Father's will but not his divine will because that was already one with the Father's.
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  #8  
Old Feb 27, '12, 3:54 am
levinas12 levinas12 is offline
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Default Re: Any good reading on Christology?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alterum View Post
Levinas, while the Summa is authoritative in some respects, it isn't a dogmatically authoritative document (as I'm sure you know), so I'd look to Chalcedon. In its Definition of Faith, it makes an explicit anti-Nestorian claim by rejecting a two-subject Christology. Remember that Nestorius thought that the divine will of the Word, and the human will of the human subject of the hypostatic union, were separate but conjoined. The Council was reacting against Nestorianism specifically when it asserted, on the contrary, that Christ has two natures in one subject (hypostasis) with "no separation". So I don't think it's right to say that Christ had two separate wills. The Council still allows for the predication of properties like "suffering" to Christ, but they are predicated of the human nature instead of the divine nature. Does that help?
I think it's de fide that Jesus had two wills (divine, human). The posting from Cristiano (#7) provides the scriptural basis - from the Agony in the Garden ("not my will ...). Jesus couldn't have said this if he had not had a human will (in addition to his divine will).

Without a human intellect and a human will, what kind of human nature would Jesus have had (and has)? Yet Jesus was not and is not a human person, only a divine person.

The theological "hinge" here is the notion of person (which equates to hypostasis). Philosophically, "person" is different from "nature". Thus, there can be 3 persons in God. But "person" can never be closed in (as in a monad). "Person" is a relation to an other, and thus is not a Cartesian center of consciousness. And "person" is flexible enough philosophically to accommodate both a human nature and a divine nature, unmixed. But that's only possible given the unusual character of the divine nature. Divine nature is totally outside the world so it can be united with a human nature without mixing, without producing a hybrid or a demi-god. Jesus's divine nature does not "damage" his human nature.

Last edited by levinas12; Feb 27, '12 at 4:12 am.
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  #9  
Old Feb 28, '12, 6:02 am
Alterum Alterum is offline
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Default Re: Any good reading on Christology?

Quote:
Originally Posted by levinas12 View Post
I think it's de fide that Jesus had two wills (divine, human). The posting from Cristiano (#7) provides the scriptural basis - from the Agony in the Garden ("not my will ...). Jesus couldn't have said this if he had not had a human will (in addition to his divine will).

Without a human intellect and a human will, what kind of human nature would Jesus have had (and has)? Yet Jesus was not and is not a human person, only a divine person.

The theological "hinge" here is the notion of person (which equates to hypostasis). Philosophically, "person" is different from "nature". Thus, there can be 3 persons in God. But "person" can never be closed in (as in a monad). "Person" is a relation to an other, and thus is not a Cartesian center of consciousness. And "person" is flexible enough philosophically to accommodate both a human nature and a divine nature, unmixed. But that's only possible given the unusual character of the divine nature. Divine nature is totally outside the world so it can be united with a human nature without mixing, without producing a hybrid or a demi-god. Jesus's divine nature does not "damage" his human nature.
Levinas, on the contrary, I'm fairly certain that position was condemned as Nestorianism at Chalcedon (to which Definition of Faith I again refer you). Chalcedon is de fide teaching; a Scriptural citation is not. There are many other ways to account for the agony in the garden than to suppose that Christ had two wills.

If you do say that Christ had two wills, you run into the same problem as Nestorius. What is a will? In conjunction with the intellect, it's the governing principle of deliberate human acts (as Aquinas said, it's rational appetite). Nestorius thought that the person of Christ did indeed have two governing principles (one divine, one human), with the human being subordinate to the divine. Instead of a hypostatic union, in which the Word is really incarnate with no separation or confusion, the result is a prosoponic union, in which the Word permanently indwells the human subject, rather than actually becoming the human subject. This is why Nestorianism is a two-subject Christology.

Again, Christ had two natures, but not two wills. Those two natures were united without separation or confusion in the one person, Christ.
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  #10  
Old Feb 28, '12, 7:36 am
Alindawyl Alindawyl is offline
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Default Re: Any good reading on Christology?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alterum View Post
Again, Christ had two natures, but not two wills. Those two natures were united without separation or confusion in the one person, Christ.
Christ most definitely does have both a human will and divine will. The claim that Christ has only a single will is the heresy of monothelitism. That heresy was condemned at the Third Council of Constantinople.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church states in paragraph 475:

Similarly, at the sixth ecumenical council, Constantinople III in 681, the Church confessed that Christ possesses two wills and two natural operations, divine and human. They are not opposed to each other, but co-operate in such a way that the Word made flesh willed humanly in obedience to his Father all that he had decided divinely with the Father and the Holy Spirit for our salvation. Christ's human will "does not resist or oppose but rather submits to his divine and almighty will."

That section of the Catechism briefly covers the major Christological and Trinitarian heresies of the early Church, with this one near the end.

An excellent book on Christology is Jesus Christ: Fundamentals of Christology, by Father Roch Kereszty. Here it is on Amazon.
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  #11  
Old Feb 28, '12, 8:30 am
piejesu piejesu is offline
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Default Re: Any good reading on Christology?

Quote:
Christ most definitely does have both a human will and divine will. The claim that Christ has only a single will is the heresy of monothelitism. That heresy was condemned at the Third Council of Constantinople.
Good for you Alindawyl. A person might also supplement the book by Father Roch Kereszty with Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Dr. Ludwig Ott, also available at Amazon.com.
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  #12  
Old Feb 28, '12, 10:04 am
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Default Re: Any good reading on Christology?

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Originally Posted by Bezant View Post
I'm afraid I know very little about it. Does anyone know of any good articles or books?
Yes, I do. I highly recommend The Person of Christ by Reverend Jean Galot. It's available for free reading on Google Books. There may be some pages missing. It's difficult to get a copy of your own as one rarely is put up for sale. http://books.google.com/books?id=IP8...page&q&f=false
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  #13  
Old Feb 28, '12, 10:17 am
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DCNBILL DCNBILL is offline
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Default Re: Any good reading on Christology?

I doubt that these are still in print but these are good compilations of early Church Fathers through Vatican II theologians.

A Theology of Christ: Sources edited by Vincent Zamoyta from Bruce publishing.

Another is The Theology of Christ: Commentary edited by Ralph J. Tapia

There is also Aloys Gtrillmeier, S.J Christ in Christian Tradition in 2 volumes.

Good stuff in all. You may be able to pick up used copies somewhere.
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  #14  
Old Feb 29, '12, 7:04 am
Alterum Alterum is offline
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Default Re: Any good reading on Christology?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alindawyl View Post
Christ most definitely does have both a human will and divine will. The claim that Christ has only a single will is the heresy of monothelitism. That heresy was condemned at the Third Council of Constantinople.
I stand corrected. Apparently Nestorianism (or what was condemned at Chalcedon) should be understood in a more nuanced way.
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  #15  
Old Feb 29, '12, 9:12 am
levinas12 levinas12 is offline
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Default Re: Any good reading on Christology?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alindawyl View Post
Christ most definitely does have both a human will and divine will. The claim that Christ has only a single will is the heresy of monothelitism. That heresy was condemned at the Third Council of Constantinople.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church states in paragraph 475:

Similarly, at the sixth ecumenical council, Constantinople III in 681, the Church confessed that Christ possesses two wills and two natural operations, divine and human. They are not opposed to each other, but co-operate in such a way that the Word made flesh willed humanly in obedience to his Father all that he had decided divinely with the Father and the Holy Spirit for our salvation. Christ's human will "does not resist or oppose but rather submits to his divine and almighty will."

That section of the Catechism briefly covers the major Christological and Trinitarian heresies of the early Church, with this one near the end.

An excellent book on Christology is Jesus Christ: Fundamentals of Christology, by Father Roch Kereszty. Here it is on Amazon.
In addition to two wills, Jesus also had two intellects (divine, human).

I'll try to find the Kereszty book.

Let me just say that this is mindboggling. The divine intellect & will must be very different from the human intellect & will for this to work. I hope Kereszty can shed some light.
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