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  #76  
Old Feb 24, '12, 7:19 pm
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IggyAntiochus IggyAntiochus is offline
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Default Re: Ideas for explaining the 'visible church' to non-Catholics?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cat Herder View Post
No, it is simply to trust that Jesus is not a failure. You are the one presupposing the end of apostolic authority. Nowhere do the Scriptures say such a thing.
The qualifications for the office of Apostle cannot be met today. In a more negative sense, can you reference one passage of Scripture wherein the authority of the twelve, Paul, James, and Barnabas is said to be given to another?

Quote:
I'm going to refer you again to the fact that for over a thousand years the only church was the Catholic Church. If what the Church was teaching was wrong then no one was justified and Jesus failed to do the will of God that all men have knowledge of the truth in order to be saved. (1Tim 2:3-4)
Only if you believe that it be required for an infallible church in order for God to save men.

Quote:
Calvin realized that if Jesus is not a failure then the Church was telling the truth and there was nothing to reform, so Calvin asserted that Jesus only died for the sins of certain special people (the billions who lived during the Catholic only millennium not being among them in his mind). And ever since then, non-Catholics have wanted to be special instead of being Christian.
I don't know enough about Calvin to speak to that topic.
  #77  
Old Feb 24, '12, 7:30 pm
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anodos anodos is offline
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Default Re: Ideas for explaining the 'visible church' to non-Catholics?

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Originally Posted by Jaboshua View Post
You cannot include non-Catholics into the body. They, from what I know, do not believe what Catholics are told is essential for salvation (many things), therefore they are not really "saved" or "born again". If I am wrong please point it out, I thirst for truth.
Yes, other Christians are considered part of the body, though incompletely.

CCC paragraph 818:
"All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."
819 Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements. Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to Catholic unity.
__________________


Ah Lord! do not withdraw,
Lest want of aw
Make Sinne appeare;
And when thou dost but shine lesse cleare,
Say, that thou art not here.

George Herbert, "A Parodie"
  #78  
Old Feb 24, '12, 7:58 pm
Cat Herder Cat Herder is offline
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Default Re: Ideas for explaining the 'visible church' to non-Catholics?

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Originally Posted by IggyAntiochus View Post
The qualifications for the office of Apostle cannot be met today. In a more negative sense, can you reference one passage of Scripture wherein the authority of the twelve, Paul, James, and Barnabas is said to be given to another?







Quote:
Only if you believe that it be required for an infallible church in order for God to save men.
How else do you propose that everyone can come to knowledge of the truth than through the Catholic Church? There are no other churches in the Middle Ages. No one has a Bible but the barons.
  #79  
Old Feb 24, '12, 8:28 pm
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Default Re: Ideas for explaining the 'visible church' to non-Catholics?

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Originally Posted by Cat Herder View Post

And this implies apostolic authority how?

[/quote]

Same as above.

Quote:
How else do you propose that everyone can come to knowledge of the truth than through the Catholic Church? There are no other churches in the Middle Ages. No one has a Bible but the barons.
I agree. And how is infallibility required for this?
  #80  
Old Feb 24, '12, 8:36 pm
Cat Herder Cat Herder is offline
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Default Re: Ideas for explaining the 'visible church' to non-Catholics?

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Originally Posted by IggyAntiochus View Post
And this implies apostolic authority how?




Quote:
I agree. And how is infallibility required for this?
It prevents this from happening:



Seeing as there were already false gospels circulating during his lifetime, if there is no one with Paul's authority to set things straight, it would be all but impossible to guarantee that anyone actually had knowledge of the truth and the ability to be saved.

I know Jesus. He would NEVER allow something like that to happen. He loves us too much to leave us in anxiety over whether a given gospel is the real thing. That is why there was an Apostle Paul, and for that matter, an Apostle Peter--and thus why there is the Catholic Church.
  #81  
Old Feb 24, '12, 9:42 pm
grandfather grandfather is offline
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Default Re: Ideas for explaining the 'visible church' to non-Catholics?

[quote=IggyAntiochus;9002084][
Quote:
Repentance is a response of faith.
It is your response, something you do, a work motivated by grace.



Quote:
I agree that grace causes us to repent. Our repentance is not the basis of our forgiveness, however. The sole ground of our forgiveness is God's mercy in Christ, who bore our sins. Our sins are remitted because He has suffered in our place for the punishment of those sins. 2 Cor 5:21.
Jesus told a story that might have been made up to make a point, or it might have really happened.

He spoke of two men who went to the synagogue to pray. The publican was a penitent and acknowledged his guilt. Jesus said of him that he went away justified. How was that possible? Your theology on justification does not hold up here. The factors you say are necessary for justification, the way you say it happens, are absent. He simply was remorseful, sorry for his sins, penitent. He recognized his guilt and confessed it in prayer. There was no laying hold of promises, no faith in Christ's substitution and dying for us. It seems his repentance was the basis for his forgiveness and it had nothing to do with what you say is the sole ground of forgiveness, your formula for justification.

Quote:
I do not dispute that our good works will be rewarded by God. Scripture plainly teaches this, and no Protestant tradition I know of denies it (I could be wrong in that).
I know some. You could be wrong about a few other things also.


Quote:
Pastors today do not possess the same authority as the apostles, as the apostolic office has ceased. Revelation has ceased. Now, that is not to deny that there is an office of the holy ministry within the church. But to see that hierarchy as being the sole recipient of the word "church" whenever it is used in the NT, is to read presupposition into the text where it is not warranted.
But Jesus promised to be with His apostles until the end of time. I think you make stuff up as you go to suit whatever point you are trying to make. The Bible says in Acts the apostles began replacing themselves. The Church from ancient times taught that they passed on their teaching authority. Time is not ended and they are all dead. Jesus promised to be with them until the end of time. Your last sentence makes no sense. No one thinks the ordained ministers are all there is to Church. All the faithful make up the Church. All the faithful do not now or have ever held the authority given to the hierarchy.

Really think about it. How did the publican get justified given all he did was repent and your formula for justification was impossible for him to meet? Maybe your notion of justification isn't exaclty how things work given this story Jesus told.
  #82  
Old Feb 24, '12, 10:29 pm
Jaboshua Jaboshua is offline
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Default Re: Ideas for explaining the 'visible church' to non-Catholics?

Quote:
Originally Posted by anodos View Post
Yes, other Christians are considered part of the body, though incompletely.

CCC paragraph 818:
"All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."
819 Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements. Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to Catholic unity.
But if I don't believe that Mary is a coredeemer, I am damned by "the church". If I don't partake in its Eucharist I am damned, if I don't partake in any of the sacraments, dont believe that the pope has the authority the Catholics proclaim, don't talk(pray) to the deadi am damned. I can only hope on Christ and his promises for me, my family, and my "neighbors".
  #83  
Old Feb 25, '12, 2:37 am
grandfather grandfather is offline
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Default Re: Ideas for explaining the 'visible church' to non-Catholics?

Quote:
Originally Posted by IggyAntiochus View Post
[

I do not dispute that our good works will be rewarded by God. Scripture plainly teaches this, and no Protestant tradition I know of denies it (I could be wrong in that).

.
Iggy,

Can you name five things all Protestant traditions agree upon?

I think I can name two, but maybe it is one.
  #84  
Old Feb 25, '12, 2:44 am
grandfather grandfather is offline
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Default Re: Ideas for explaining the 'visible church' to non-Catholics?

Quote:
Originally Posted by IggyAntiochus View Post
The qualifications for the office of Apostle cannot be met today. In a more negative sense, can you reference one passage of Scripture wherein the authority of the twelve, Paul, James, and Barnabas is said to be given to another?

.
How did Barnabus obtain authority?

In Acts the apostles replaced Judas, by drawing straws.

Can you name one passage in scripture that says the Church has lost her authority to teach, given to her by Christ to His apostles?

If every Christian has this authority we have doctrinal chaos, as witnessed in Protestantism, pure confusion.
  #85  
Old Feb 25, '12, 3:44 am
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anodos anodos is offline
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Default Re: Ideas for explaining the 'visible church' to non-Catholics?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaboshua View Post
But if I don't believe that Mary is a coredeemer, I am damned by "the church". If I don't partake in its Eucharist I am damned, if I don't partake in any of the sacraments, dont believe that the pope has the authority the Catholics proclaim, don't talk(pray) to the deadi am damned. I can only hope on Christ and his promises for me, my family, and my "neighbors".
The Catholic Church does not teach that any individual is damned; there's always a "maybe" factor. Only God knows. I quoted from the Catechism of the Catholic Church to show that non-Catholic Christian communities do, in fact, have their means of salvation through Jesus Christ.
__________________


Ah Lord! do not withdraw,
Lest want of aw
Make Sinne appeare;
And when thou dost but shine lesse cleare,
Say, that thou art not here.

George Herbert, "A Parodie"
  #86  
Old Feb 25, '12, 5:21 am
JonNC JonNC is online now
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Default Re: Ideas for explaining the 'visible church' to non-Catholics?

Quote:
Originally Posted by IggyAntiochus View Post
Confessional Lutherans would reunite with Rome in a heartbeat (at least I would, and I am sure Jon would as well), if the issues which still divide us were resolved. It was never the position of the conservative Reformation to divide from the Western church. We believe Rome did that at the Council of Trent.
In a heartbeat. So much so, in my case, that soteriology is not an obstacle for me. Ecclesiology, however, is.

Jon
__________________
“This also is certain, that no one should rely on his own wisdom in the interpretation of the Scripture, not even in the clear passages, for it is clearly written in 2 Peter 1:20: ‘The Scripture is not a matter of private interpretation.’
"The best reader of the Scripture, according to Hilary, is one who does not bring the understanding of what is said to the Scripture but who carries it away from the Scripture. "
Chemnitz
  #87  
Old Feb 25, '12, 9:30 am
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onemangang onemangang is offline
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Default Re: Ideas for explaining the 'visible church' to non-Catholics?

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Originally Posted by IggyAntiochus View Post
There is nothing in that about preserving justification. What it does mean, is that one who merely professes faith without the actions to back up his faith, doesn't really have faith to begin with. Just a profession.
I have read this to be a position of yours in a couple of post. I do not accept this view. I will start a new thread on this subject soon, but I am busy with a new car project. I think it would benefit you greatly to read a book by Robert Sungenis called Not by Faith Aone!

It was instrumental in usurping my previous "reformed" view of justification.

All I would say is, the works James talks about are salvific!

They are not meritorious in regards to payment due for work performed, that is strict merit.

They are however meritorious in this sense. God has told us what is pleasing to Him, and doing such acts are meriting justification. They are only meritorious because God is looking at us, through the eye's of Mercy and Love as His Children, due to the Merit of His Son, by grace we receive, we have entered into a divine family! God is not bound to pay us, but since He says in His word, we will be justified by works, viewed through the eye's of His mercy, through the Merit of His Son, we can hold fast that He will. God isn't somehow bound to anything, but He is in the sense that, if He says something, He who is Truth, will honor His own words.

So it is completely by His GRACE, and LOVE, that doing these works viewed through the eye's of a Merciful, Loving Father, we are justified.

It is all about entering into the covenant a divine family!

Therefore, we are Saved by Grace, through faith, working in Love.

That is about as basic as I can put it, for the time being. I think I will greatly expand on this in another thread!

Quote:
Originally Posted by IggyAntiochus View Post
Confessional Lutherans would reunite with Rome in a heartbeat (at least I would, and I am sure Jon would as well), if the issues which still divide us were resolved. It was never the position of the conservative Reformation to divide from the Western church. We believe Rome did that at the Council of Trent.
Lay, out specifically, what the issues are, in a thread, so that we may open a dialog on these topics, if you would please!

I would ask of JonNC to do the same in regards to Ecclesiology!

Peace and Love in Christ!
  #88  
Old Feb 25, '12, 10:02 am
grandfather grandfather is offline
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Default Re: Ideas for explaining the 'visible church' to non-Catholics?

Iggy,

Suppose someone offered you a proposition. Suppose I said if you will wear a white shirt to lunch tomorrow I will give you a million dollars. That is my offer. The bargain is not reasonable. There is no way you fairly earn the million dolalrs for soing something like putting on a shirt. But if I agree to do this thing and you fulfill your part of the bargain you deserve what I promised.

God says, I offer you forgiveness of your sins, eternal life where you will participate with me in the divine nature of the Blessed Trinity if you will believe the offer and repent of your sins. I send my Son to take on your nature and go to the cross to seal the deal. I swear to you I will forgive you, clean you of all iniquity, and welcome you to my heaven.

If you do what God asks of you, you fulfill your end of the deal however ridiculous the deal seems. It is not fair value for fair value. Nevertheless if you do it you have done what God requires to expect Him to do what He promised. He has given you salvation and at the same time you have earned it by saying yes to it and turning from your evil ways, because that is the deal God offers. You merit salvation in exchange for repentance..
  #89  
Old Feb 25, '12, 11:16 am
Cat Herder Cat Herder is offline
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Default Re: Ideas for explaining the 'visible church' to non-Catholics?

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Originally Posted by Jaboshua View Post
But if I don't believe that Mary is a coredeemer, I am damned by "the church".



(It doesn't matter whether you translate the "she" as "he," they are both at enmity with the devil.)

Quote:
If I don't partake in its Eucharist I am damned,



if I don't partake in any of the sacraments,



Quote:
dont believe that the pope has the authority the Catholics proclaim




Quote:
don't talk(pray) to the deadi am damned.



Quote:
I can only hope on Christ and his promises for me, my family, and my "neighbors".
You could start by losing the they're-out-to-get-me stuff (fear is of the enemy, not of the Lord) and by reading your Bible.
  #90  
Old Feb 25, '12, 11:19 am
Cat Herder Cat Herder is offline
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Default Re: Ideas for explaining the 'visible church' to non-Catholics?

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Originally Posted by grandfather View Post
Can you name one passage in scripture that says the Church has lost her authority to teach, given to her by Christ to His apostles?
There isn't one. In fact the Bible is quite clear that the Church will never lose the truth.

But all Protestants have to assert that the Catholic Church apostatized in order to justify their existence, so they just add the "great apostasy" to the Bible while shouting "Sola Scriptura."
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