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  #76  
Old Feb 25, '12, 8:47 am
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Default Re: Social Issues and the Santorum Surge

Quote:
Originally Posted by mlund View Post
That's really a result of the media purposefully obfuscating things and being deliberately obtuse than Sen. Santorum's own conduct.



See, that's how they get you. Santorum claims to have voted against federally funding the supply of contraceptives. That's not the same as "voting against birth control." The media uses imprecise paraphrases to attempt to imply that Rick Santorum is going to ban Birth Control Pills and send ATF out after you for it because he's a "crazy religious fanatic."



Actually, he said that he wasn't some guy out to "destroy women's health" like Planned Parenthood and its surrogates in the media try to label him. Title X includes a lot more than contraceptives - including abstinence sex-ed, STD testing, cancer testing, and HIV/AIDS treatment. His point is that even though he disagrees with and has tried to remove contraception from the federal dole he's not going to vote down the whole of Title X just because he doesn't have the votes to amend it his own way - nor is he going to bypass the legislative process and impose such things by executive order like President Obama is wont to do.



We all agree the government has a role in regulating sexual behavior. That's why we have laws against rape, incest, public lewdness, etc. That doesn't mean we don't believe in personal autonomy anymore than restricting the cry of "fire" in a crowded theater means we don't believe in Freedom of Speech.

The media (and Ron Paul) are also doing a great job confusing what Rick Santorum's offered as his private opinions on social conduct (like when he was an ex-Senator speaking at a religious event) with what he's put forth as public regulatory policy. One thing Rick Santorum has been explicit about (though no one wants to report on it) is that there's a difference between what we ought to do and what the government ought to be able to impose on us - and that's a lesson that completely flies over the heads of Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid, and Barack Obama.

- Marty Lund
I hope everybody reads this post. It is a very good one separating fact from myth.
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  #77  
Old Feb 25, '12, 8:57 am
Bubba Switzler Bubba Switzler is offline
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Default Re: Social Issues and the Santorum Surge

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Originally Posted by qui est ce View Post
I hope everybody reads this post. It is a very good one separating fact from myth.
I think what he also does is rightly identify the source of "myth", which is really better characterized as propaganda. The media is quite intentionally misrepresenting the facts. It is not mere ignorance on their part.
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  #78  
Old Feb 25, '12, 8:58 am
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Default Re: Social Issues and the Santorum Surge

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Originally Posted by Bubba Switzler View Post
No disagreement there. But I think there is an expectation that a candidate should improve with practice.


http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/...ome-back-haun/
Really making a simple thing overly complex. From the article:
Quote:
The Senate Health and Human Services Committee rejected a bill that declares any fetus with a beating heart or muscle movement outside the womb as ‘born alive,’” reporter Kristy Hessman’s AP story said
Obama's words:
Quote:
is that there was a method of abortion, and induced abortion, where the – – the fetus or child, as – – as some might describe it, is still temporarily alive outside the womb.
Wow. Unbelievable what gyrations people will go through to dehumanize a baby.
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  #79  
Old Feb 25, '12, 8:58 am
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Default Re: Social Issues and the Santorum Surge

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Originally Posted by Bubba Switzler View Post
I think what he also does is rightly identify the source of "myth", which is really better characterized as propaganda. The media is quite intentionally misrepresenting the facts. It is not mere ignorance on their part.
It boggles my mind that people eat this up.
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  #80  
Old Feb 25, '12, 9:29 am
Bubba Switzler Bubba Switzler is offline
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Default Re: Social Issues and the Santorum Surge

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Originally Posted by qui est ce View Post
It boggles my mind that people eat this up.
I think most in the media know better, though I have found that they are not nearly as smart as they think they are. And certainly plenty of non-media "activists" know how these games are played. But I suspect the vast majority of "news" consumers simply don't care enough to sort it out or hold the media accountable.
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  #81  
Old Feb 25, '12, 10:45 am
ProVobis ProVobis is offline
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Default Re: Social Issues and the Santorum Surge

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Originally Posted by _Abyssinia View Post
Gas prices are expected to be over $5 a gallon this year, already $4 dollars gallon average, so I would not be so arrogant.
Gas prices may be the least of our problems come November. The issue was overblown in 2008 and in eight months unemployment could easily reach 10% everywhere. Not everyone will be driving then.
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  #82  
Old Feb 25, '12, 4:18 pm
Personanongrata Personanongrata is offline
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Default Re: Social Issues and the Santorum Surge

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Originally Posted by qui est ce View Post
You don't "know" yet what will happen in November. You can have your opinion. That is what Abyssinia is talking about.
NO ONE really knows what will happen in November. My opinion is that Santorum cannot beat Obama in the general election. Arrogance has nothing to do with it. I just don't like Santorum and I don't believe he will get the Republican nomination.
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  #83  
Old Feb 25, '12, 4:42 pm
Christopher68 Christopher68 is offline
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Default Re: Social Issues and the Santorum Surge

It's highly unlikely that Santorum will win the GOP nomination. The fact that a politician who lost his last election by 17% is a semi-viable candidate is a testament to the overall weakness of the Republican field. The social issues that might give Santorum a bump in the GOP primary will be a hindrance in a general election.
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  #84  
Old Feb 25, '12, 4:50 pm
Bubba Switzler Bubba Switzler is offline
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Default Re: Social Issues and the Santorum Surge

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Originally Posted by Personanongrata View Post
NO ONE really knows what will happen in November. My opinion is that Santorum cannot beat Obama in the general election. Arrogance has nothing to do with it. I just don't like Santorum and I don't believe he will get the Republican nomination.
In my opinion, you overestimate the electability difference between Romney and Santorum.

If Romney has any advantage over Santorum in this respect, it is negligible compared to the differences between either and Obama.

Who would vote for Obama who would otherwise vote for Romney if Santorum were the Republican nominee? And vice versa. While there may be some there are not many and no necessarily any more of one than the other, judging from their current base of support.

Romney has been the so-called "front runner" from the beginning and has been unable to excite anyone. Santorum was a nobody until relatively recently. In order to win Santorum will have to move beyond not being Romney to exciting people about himself while avoiding self implosion that consumed Bachmann, Cain, Gingrich, etc. He has not quite accomplished this yet. But if he can then that will certainly give him an edge over Romney.

In other words, in order to win the nomination Santorum must attract the support that would make him a better candidate against Obama.

Let the process play out.
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  #85  
Old Feb 25, '12, 8:15 pm
ishii ishii is offline
 
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Default Re: Social Issues and the Santorum Surge

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Originally Posted by Personanongrata View Post
NO ONE really knows what will happen in November. My opinion is that Santorum cannot beat Obama in the general election. Arrogance has nothing to do with it. I just don't like Santorum and I don't believe he will get the Republican nomination.
I have to agree. I think the Obama billion $ smear machine will ensure that the average Joe will think that Santorum wants to outlaw contraceptives. He will make sure that the issue is Santorum and not Obama's dismal performance as president. The mainstream media will help him with this. That is a given. But Obama should not get the vote of even one Catholic who understands Catholic moral teaching. He might get the votes of confused or lapsed catholics, but a Church going catholic should know better this time. There really is no excuse for a Catholic voting for Obama in 2012. If enough catholics understand this, then Obama could well lose against a Santorum or a Romney. There is no excuse for a Catholic to vote for Obama.

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  #86  
Old Feb 25, '12, 8:22 pm
MinkPink MinkPink is offline
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Default Re: Social Issues and the Santorum Surge

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Originally Posted by ishii View Post
If enough catholics understand this, then Obama could well lose against a Santorum or a Romney. There is no excuse for a Catholic to vote for Obama.

Ishii
Considering how much war-mongering (which has killed tens of thousands of born human beings), social program hating and safety net despising (which would lead to the poor being more marginalized and poorer), and death penalty supporting that goes on in the Republican Party, I am always puzzled by people who find it problematic that many Catholics do not vote Republican. It's like right-wing Catholics are choosing to overlook (that is, doing the same cherry picking they accuse Democratic Catholics of) all those issues the church has a strong opinion on solely to focus on abortion, even though conservative Republicans have done little to outlaw it (little obstacle called the Supreme Court) and couldn't give two straws about what happens to you after you are born.

Bizarre.
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  #87  
Old Feb 25, '12, 9:32 pm
ishii ishii is offline
 
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Default Re: Social Issues and the Santorum Surge

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Originally Posted by MinkPink View Post
Considering how much war-mongering (which has killed tens of thousands of born human beings), social program hating and safety net despising (which would lead to the poor being more marginalized and poorer), and death penalty supporting that goes on in the Republican Party, I am always puzzled by people who find it problematic that many Catholics do not vote Republican. It's like right-wing Catholics are choosing to overlook (that is, doing the same cherry picking they accuse Democratic Catholics of) all those issues the church has a strong opinion on solely to focus on abortion, even though conservative Republicans have done little to outlaw it (little obstacle called the Supreme Court) and couldn't give two straws about what happens to you after you are born.

Bizarre.
Ha. Typical post full of ad hominems and lame arguments " the Democrats might be for infanticide, but the GOP hates the poor because they're against failed welfare programs."

I don't have the time for these old, tired arguments, minkpink - but thanks for trying.

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  #88  
Old Feb 26, '12, 2:01 am
MinkPink MinkPink is offline
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Default Re: Social Issues and the Santorum Surge

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Originally Posted by ishii View Post
Ha. Typical post full of ad hominems and lame arguments " the Democrats might be for infanticide, but the GOP hates the poor because they're against failed welfare programs."

I don't have the time for these old, tired arguments, minkpink - but thanks for trying.
You failed entirely to address socially conservative Republican positions that directly contradict Church teachings, including the pro-war and pro-death penalty positions of socially conservative Republicans, war especially having killed tens of thousands of born human beings in Iraq. So, right wing Republican Catholics cherry pick just as much if not more than Democratic ones.

Last edited by MinkPink; Feb 26, '12 at 2:20 am.
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  #89  
Old Feb 26, '12, 5:14 am
ProVobis ProVobis is offline
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Default Re: Social Issues and the Santorum Surge

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Originally Posted by MinkPink View Post
It's like right-wing Catholics are choosing to overlook (that is, doing the same cherry picking they accuse Democratic Catholics of) all those issues the church has a strong opinion on solely to focus on abortion, even though conservative Republicans have done little to outlaw it (little obstacle called the Supreme Court) and couldn't give two straws about what happens to you after you are born.

Bizarre.
Six Catholics currently sit on the Supreme Court. And all they've seemed to have decided in the past few year or so is that corporations have the same rights as individuals. Weird.
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  #90  
Old Feb 26, '12, 6:27 am
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Dawnia Dawnia is offline
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Default Re: Social Issues and the Santorum Surge

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Originally Posted by MinkPink View Post
You failed entirely to address socially conservative Republican positions that directly contradict Church teachings, including the pro-war and pro-death penalty positions of socially conservative Republicans, war especially having killed tens of thousands of born human beings in Iraq. So, right wing Republican Catholics cherry pick just as much if not more than Democratic ones.
Neither war nor the death penalty are explicitly forbidden by the Church. They are determined on a case by case situation. Abortion is always wrong.

What you term cherry picking is really just having their priorities right. Whereas born people can work to change their conditions in life. Unborn babies are at the mercy of people already born.

(FYI - California which is heavily Democrat has the death penalty enshrined in their constitution)
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