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  #181  
Old Feb 23, '12, 7:32 am
grannymh grannymh is offline
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Default Re: Priest says OT is all "just stories"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Voco proTatiano View Post
I am still convinced that it is an error to look for a spiritual message in the WORDS of the Old Testament.
The Spiritual message, when it is present, is written in the white spaces.
In the melody, not the words.
Most of the OT is Nationalist Propaganda.
The Children of Israel are G_D's Chosen People.
The rest are other.
I definitely cannot speak for other Christian religions. Since reading posts on CAF, I have discovered that the Catholic Church is totally unique in some areas of faith. The Catholic Church has the guts to formally declare basic doctrines which are to be accepted as true teachings of God.

Obviously, Catholicism recognizes that when individuals look for spiritual messages in the *words* there can be personal human errors in interpretations. The Catholic Church seeks God's guidance about both the words and what might be in the white spaces.

Starting with the "Apostolic Age" the Catholic Church has consistently studied both the words and actions of Jesus Christ. It has studied the writings of the early Church Fathers and the inspired teachers who followed. It has intensely studied Scripture. It has studied Tradition which puts faith into actions such as the Liturgies for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and the seven Sacraments. It has prayed constantly to the Holy Spirit for wisdom and guidance especially when leaders met together in ecumenical church councils.

As a result, there is confidence that the Catholic Deposit of Faith contains Divine Revelation.

Blessings,
granny

“The shepherds sing; and shall I silent be?”
From the poem "Christmas" by George Herbert
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  #182  
Old Feb 23, '12, 12:26 pm
Pete Holter Pete Holter is offline
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Default Re: Priest says OT is all "just stories"

Greetings in Christ everyone!

In case anyone was interested in Augustine’s take, he held detrimental bodily deformities, congenital diseases, infant mortality, etc. to be undeniable empirical proofs of original sin in light of our faith in our God, Who is a just and good God:
“I shall say nothing of those who are feeble-minded by nature, who in the words of Scripture are more to be mourned than the dead. The grace of God is indeed able to deliver them from so great an evil through the blood of the Mediator; but how could they have fallen into so great an evil unless by divine decree there was a punishment due a vitiated origin? … What do you mean, then, when you ask: ‘Why would not the children be cleansed in the work itself, so that the hands of the Creator would purify them of the defilements attributed to the parents?’ You do not see this could also be said about the manifest bodily faults with which not a few infants are born; yet, let none ever doubt that the true and good God forms all bodies. Nevertheless, from the hands of so great a Creator proceeds a multitude not only of faulty things, but even such monsters that they are called ‘errors of nature’ by some who, unable to search out the divine power, what God does and why, are ashamed to confess they do not know what they do not know. … And if the just God imposed evils so great I cannot at present recount them, upon infants who contract no sin, He would rather seem unjust” (Against Julian, Bk. 6, Ch. 1; Bk. 5, Ch. 15; Bk. 2, Ch. 10).
Here are some thoughts from him where he briefly interacts with objections raised on account of the man born blind in John 9. He makes the basic point that Jesus’ words do not amount to using this man as an illustration of a general point concerning all such men:
“[O]ur Lord’s words about the man born blind—that this did not happen because of his own sin or the sin of his parents, but that the works of God were to be made manifest in him—cannot be applied to the innumerable infants born with such great variety of faults in soul and body. For, indeed, there are many who are never healed at all, but die with those same faults, at another age, or even in infancy; and some infants already reborn retain the faults with which they were born, while other evils of the same kind may also be added—God forbid we say this is done without its being deserved” (Against Julian, Bk. 3, Ch. 6:13).

“(1) Be silent, please! You do not know what you are saying. Some children have been born with their mouths sealed, and doctors opened them. There lived in our area a certain Acatius, a member of a respected family among his people. He said that he was born with his eyelids sealed. Because his eyes, though healthy, could not open with the lids sealed together, the doctor wanted to open them with a knife. His pious mother did not permit this, but opened his eyes by placing on them a plaster made from the eucharist when he was already a boy of almost five or more years. For this reason he reported that he remembered this well. (2) I pass over that man born blind in the gospel whose eyes their maker himself restored, the eyes which he made defective in order to reveal his marvelous works. For in that case the reason why he was born blind was not passed over; it was not on account of his sin or that of his parents, but in order that the works of God might be revealed in him. Ask the doctors, nonetheless, and let them tell you how many they help, when they can, so that bodily defects from birth do not remain or even kill the children. For, as some are born with the mouths sealed, so others are born with blockages in internal passages, and if these defects remain, they do not, of course, permit them to live. After all, when these human being are helped by medical expertise, the works of God are not blamed when they are corrected. For what true worshipper of God does not know that they out to be born in the condition in which they were born? (3) But even this pertains to the woes of the human race in which we live out these evil days filled, under the just judgment of God, with labors, sorrows, fears, and dangers. Heaven forbid that all these evils should be present in that happiness of paradise! And for this reason they have sprung up only from that root of sin. What about minds? If they are left as they are born and not developed by careful teaching by the great labor of teachers and of students, is it not clear what they will remain? But you, go ahead, fill your paradise with human beings born with defective minds and bodies in order that you may to your own misfortune deny original sin with your eyes closed and your mouth impudently open” (Unfinished Work in Answer to Julian, Bk. 3, 162).
Did everyone get to see our Pope’s homily from yesterday? Seems to fit in well with the present discussion on original sin:
“The same spirit that resurrected Jesus from the dead can transform our hearts from hearts of stone to hearts of flesh. We said as much in the psalm: ‘A pure heart create for me O God [...].’ That the same God that exiled our first parents from Eden, sent His own Son to this Earth devastated by sin, without sparing Him, so that we, prodigal children, can return, penitent and redeemed through His mercy, to our true homeland. So be it for all of us, and for all believers, and for all those who humbly recognize their need to be saved. Amen” (Homily, 2/22/12).
With love in Christ,
Pete
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  #183  
Old Feb 23, '12, 1:30 pm
Gorgias Gorgias is offline
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Default Re: Priest says OT is all "just stories"

Quote:
Originally Posted by grannymh View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorgias
(btw... the doctrine wouldn't be 'transubstantiation', would it, but rather, 'the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist', right? )
The basic doctrine is the Real Presence of Christ under the appearances of bread and wine. The Eucharist is the usual name. The term Transubstantiation describes the Eucharist and as such is also a doctrine.
Right. Let me rephrase, then, since you misunderstood:

(btw... the doctrine your friend is asking you to defend wouldn't be 'transubstantiation', would it, but rather, 'the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist', right?

There. Better?

(After all ... the Last Supper narratives establish the Real Presence; transubstantiation is whole 'nother discussion...!)
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  #184  
Old Feb 23, '12, 1:54 pm
Voco proTatiano Voco proTatiano is offline
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Default Re: Priest says OT is all "just stories"

So a man spent half his life in darkness so that G_D could show off.
Not a very nice god.
Job was covered in boils so that G_D might be glorified.
Not a very nice god.
If my mother or father acted such, I would hand them over for Crimes Against Humanity.
And I would be ashamed.
I do not believe this of G_D.
G_D did not design a universe destined to fail, nor life, which has striven to be human, and ultimately divine, to fail.
The design, and the creation was made with the possibility of failure, but the possibility, and the hope for success.
In the Creation, there have been failures, necessary failures, where a design prototype failed to meet requirements, but overall, the progress has been successful.
Like the dinosaurs, we may not be the ultimate goal.
No-one in this universe knows how it will turn out. That is a different story.
The OT Genesis was a purported 'history' based on inadequate science.
It is no better than a 'Just-so' story.
It gives us clues to the mindset of the writers.
Without the understanding of how evolution, and natural selection worked, it came to conclusions no better than the Greek Chess game of the gods.

Yes, there is 'original sin'.
But it is not the memory of a fall, but the signature of a deliberately 'imperfect' creation.
Imperfect in as much as it can be improved by the created.
By this definition, a 'perfect' creation would be an absolute failure.

Humanity is the seed of a very nasty bunch of predatory chimps.
The Native American myth that the wolves taught humanity how to live is not far from the truth, for without active interspecie co-operation between the wolves and the chimps, the lions and tigers would have stopped progress in its tracks.
The wolf-pack hunting discipline is the source of both language, and civilization.
Ultimately it has become the moral code.
But the wolf pack discipline also requires that the stronger pack will destroy the weaker, and that weaklings in the pack will be rejected. Also, the pack leader, when too old, or weakened, will be removed, by lethal force. This is war, infanticide, and patricide.
These are our foundations.
We are little better than savages, some of us are worse.
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  #185  
Old Feb 24, '12, 7:59 pm
RevG RevG is offline
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Default Re: Priest says OT is all "just stories"

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Originally Posted by razredge View Post
Job is clearly a piece of didactic, wisdom literature which gives a response to the problem of evil and was not written as an actual historical account and should not be taken as such (note the highly structured text with cycles of speeches occurring between Job, Eliphaz, Bildad, Zophar and later Elihu, and then the dialogue between Yahweh and Job).
Many of the details of the text are fantastical - Job lives for another 140 years (living to see the 4th generation of his children!)



Hardly, the books of the Bible are written at very different times by different authors and have different levels of support by independent evidence.

Why does taking the Genesis creation account or Job as a 'story' also entail that we take the life of Christ as a story?
Sice it is so clear to you that these books are not historical let me ask this...how much Biblical Hebrew do you know? Obviously none. The structure of the text does not Make it non-historical. The fact that you question God, and His Word is interesting.
The books were written at different times, but the level of proof is consistent. There have been over 24,000 archaeological endeavors that have confirmed the historicity of the Bible. There is nothing in science that disproves anything in Scrpture.
The reason I said it is a small step to question Christ is because if God misled you at any point in the Bible then the whole Bible is erroneous. If you question any one part then you must question the whole.
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  #186  
Old Feb 24, '12, 8:07 pm
RevG RevG is offline
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Default Re: Priest says OT is all "just stories"

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Originally Posted by Voco proTatiano View Post
Friend, you go to far.
G_D, in the Body of Our Lord is the author of the Gospels, as they were originally written.
Some minor alterations and additions have crept in by the hands of 'correctors' and illustrators.
As for the rest, it is by the hand of Man, some inspired, and some maybe not so inspired.

Your claim is about as admissible as the claims that the Holy Quran was dictated in its entirety to Mohammad by the Angel Gabliel, and by that standard, your claim should be judged.

Faith is a mystery.
There is No certainty, other than perhaps death and taxation.

That is the way G_D built the Universe.
Uncertainty is a necessary part of its existence.
Inside this universe no-one can see the future, and that includes G_D in the body in this universe.
Outside of time and space, it is of course, a different matter.
Let me see if I understand your position correctly. Are you saying that what is contained in the Bible is not 100% trustworthy? In every book and every verse?

If you are then let me ask this. How can it be that the Bible was written by about 40 different human authors, on 3 continents (Africa, Asia, Europe) in 3 languages (Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek) over the course of about 1500 years and there is not a single contradiction anywhere in it. Humans can write a single book without contradicting themselves do you honestly think anyone other than God could have accomplished this?
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  #187  
Old Feb 24, '12, 8:16 pm
RevG RevG is offline
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Default Re: Priest says OT is all "just stories"

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Originally Posted by razredge View Post
Both human and animal death existed before the Fall
There is absolutely zero evidence to prove that ridiculous statement. I am sorry if you do not trust God when He says in the beginning He created...and then tells the details which include the death of the first animals for coverings for Adam and Eve, the blood was shed to cover sin, and the death of the first human by murder when Cain murders Able. Scripture tells us these things if you choose to make up your own reality then that's your choice.
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  #188  
Old Feb 24, '12, 10:18 pm
Deus_lo_vult Deus_lo_vult is offline
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Post Re: Priest says OT is all "just stories"

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Originally Posted by bethanysamuel View Post
I hope this post works as my last 1 disappeared. Basically, yesterday at Mass our new priest said "And thank God it's just a story" referring to Job. I approached him after Mass to ask him whether Job ever really existed and he said no, and neither did Jonah. He said all the Old Testament books are "just stories". I'm really worried about this as it appears to be a heresy and I am considering contacting the Bishop. Please give me advice on this.
I don't know if this has already been said, but at the moment I'm short of time so I can't bother to look through this thread. I apologize in advance if I'm just re-hashing old news.

Let me add that the Catholic Church teaches that the Bible is made up of books that are both poetical and historical. I don't think it's appropriate to say that the Old Testament is just a story book. When did the Church start teaching that Moses' parting of the Red Sea was just a story? The Paschal feast commemorates the deliverance of the Jews from slavery in Egypt; the male head of every Jewish household is instructed to behave as if he himself was freed from the slavery of the Egyptians.

I agree that certain of the books in the Bible are poetic and allegorical but the stories of Moses, Isaiah and Kind David are all historical records; indeed Christ traces His bloodline to a true and historical King David, it is one of the grounds on which He claims the title Christ, or Messiah.
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If it is a de fide teaching, and you realize that, and you persist in your dissent, then you place yourself outside the Church (excommunication). Therefore, you are no longer a Catholic.
I've made this point before.
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  #189  
Old Feb 25, '12, 12:39 am
grannymh grannymh is offline
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Default Re: Priest says OT is all "just stories"

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If you question any one part then you must question the whole.
That is silly because the point of life is to seek God in humility.
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  #190  
Old Feb 25, '12, 12:07 pm
RevG RevG is offline
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Default Re: Priest says OT is all "just stories"

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Originally Posted by grannymh View Post
That is silly because the point of life is to seek God in humility.
silly? If you doubt the authority or authenticity of, let's just say Genesis 1:1. What is there to prove the rest of the Bible is accurate? Where will you seek God if you question His revelation to us?
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  #191  
Old Feb 25, '12, 12:20 pm
Voco proTatiano Voco proTatiano is offline
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Default Re: Priest says OT is all "just stories"

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Originally Posted by RevG View Post
Let me see if I understand your position correctly. Are you saying that what is contained in the Bible is not 100% trustworthy? In every book and every verse?

If you are then let me ask this. How can it be that the Bible was written by about 40 different human authors, on 3 continents (Africa, Asia, Europe) in 3 languages (Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek) over the course of about 1500 years and there is not a single contradiction anywhere in it. Humans can write a single book without contradicting themselves do you honestly think anyone other than God could have accomplished this?
Sorry, I do not know where you get your sources from, but the Bible, nay, even the New Testament is RIDDLED with contradictions.
Language needs to be tied into Gordian knots to square the circle.

It took the geneous of Tatian or Ammonius to generate a Gospel Harmony which untied most of the knots.
An understanding that there were three disparate calendars current at the time does not help.

Your blind faith in a man made artefact puts you in the same camp as the Muslims claiming infallibility for the Quran.

Even the Gospel(s) have been altered.
Marginal notes creep into the text.
An occasional letter is mis-copied.

There is no guardian angel watching over typesetters.
Nor over copyists.

Fundamentalists need to know what is fundamental.
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  #192  
Old Feb 25, '12, 12:37 pm
grannymh grannymh is offline
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Default Re: Priest says OT is all "just stories"

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silly? If you doubt the authority or authenticity of, let's just say Genesis 1:1. What is there to prove the rest of the Bible is accurate? Where will you seek God if you question His revelation to us?
My apology for the use of the word silly. I should have said non sequitur based on the way I learned Catholicism. I learned Catholic doctrines before I opened a Bible. I learned the life of Christ from listening to the Scripture readings at the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass when I was a child. As an adult, it is my choice to believe the accuracy of Catholic doctrine.

When I finally started reading Scripture itself, I was amazed to find the foundations for Catholic doctrines. Yet, not every chapter and verse resulted in a Catholic doctrine. I am comfortable with the realization that everything in Scripture does not automatically become a doctrine. I am comfortable with Catholic doctrines as they are. In short, while Scripture is very important to me, I use Catholic doctrines as my standard of faith.

I seek God in the Catholic Church because Jesus Christ is truly present in the Catholic Eucharist.
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  #193  
Old Feb 25, '12, 1:16 pm
RevG RevG is offline
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Default Re: Priest says OT is all "just stories"

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Originally Posted by Voco proTatiano View Post
Sorry, I do not know where you get your sources from, but the Bible, nay, even the New Testament is RIDDLED with contradictions.
Language needs to be tied into Gordian knots to square the circle.

It took the geneous of Tatian or Ammonius to generate a Gospel Harmony which untied most of the knots.
An understanding that there were three disparate calendars current at the time does not help.

Your blind faith in a man made artefact puts you in the same camp as the Muslims claiming infallibility for the Quran.

Even the Gospel(s) have been altered.
Marginal notes creep into the text.
An occasional letter is mis-copied.

There is no guardian angel watching over typesetters.
Nor over copyists.

Fundamentalists need to know what is fundamental.
First of all my sources are the Greek New Testament and the Hebrew Old Testament along with several years of theological education, the primary source is the indwelling Holy Spirit. All of these are obviously absent from you. The Bible never calls for blind faith, and to place faith in Christ who is revealed through the Bible is not blind faith, it is founded on the Word of God. You however have created your own reality without foundation. All the evidence points to the accuracy of the Bible. It sounds like you need to go back to text criticism 101 and pay attention.
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  #194  
Old Feb 25, '12, 2:02 pm
Voco proTatiano Voco proTatiano is offline
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Default Re: Priest says OT is all "just stories"

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Originally Posted by RevG View Post
First of all my sources are the Greek New Testament and the Hebrew Old Testament along with several years of theological education, the primary source is the indwelling Holy Spirit. All of these are obviously absent from you. The Bible never calls for blind faith, and to place faith in Christ who is revealed through the Bible is not blind faith, it is founded on the Word of God. You however have created your own reality without foundation. All the evidence points to the accuracy of the Bible. It sounds like you need to go back to text criticism 101 and pay attention.
I have had this kind of conversation with devout Muslims, and I know it is fruitless for all concerned.
How little you know.
The Gospels were in Latin long before they were Greek.
The Greek is translated Latin.
The 'original' Greek is as lost as the original Aramaic.
No complete Greek exists, predating the Old Latin of the Latin Diatessaron.
See the Forgotten Gospel. AD 200.
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  #195  
Old Feb 25, '12, 2:40 pm
RevG RevG is offline
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Default Re: Priest says OT is all "just stories"

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Originally Posted by Voco proTatiano View Post
I have had this kind of conversation with devout Muslims, and I know it is fruitless for all concerned.
How little you know.
The Gospels were in Latin long before they were Greek.
The Greek is translated Latin.
The 'original' Greek is as lost as the original Aramaic.
No complete Greek exists, predating the Old Latin of the Latin Diatessaron.
See the Forgotten Gospel. AD 200.
it is fruitless since you do not know what your talking about. the Gospels were written in Greek, and we have hundreds of Greek scrolls and parchment from as early as about 125 AD. Maybe you should do a little research since you don't know as much as thought you did.
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