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  #31  
Old Feb 24, '12, 8:19 pm
Dale_M Dale_M is offline
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Default Re: Homosexual Marriage Legal = Prostitution Legal?

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Originally Posted by Nate13 View Post
Talking morally I would say yes in principle it is. Its fundamentally counter to the purpose of sex and marriage and inherently is use of another person regardless of intent. I would argue that same thing though for homosexual acts though as well. I assume by exploitation you were referring to when one human being "uses" another correct?
By "exploitation, I mean using another person to their detriment and without regard for their welfare.
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  #32  
Old Feb 24, '12, 8:26 pm
Nate13 Nate13 is offline
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Default Re: Homosexual Marriage Legal = Prostitution Legal?

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Originally Posted by Leegal View Post
I was responding to your question as to whether pre-marital sex was exploitation. It would not, providing rape was not involved.

However, I would say these two can cover prostitution as exploitation of women.

Directly or indirectly forcing somebody to work
Many prostitutes make more than engineers. If paying well is indirectly forcing someone to work then a lot of people are being exploited. As long as a prostitute is being paid a reasonable wage for her services there would be no exploitation. If it was legal you could better set wages to make sure they received a just wage. Even if being a prostitute is a decision brought upon by economic distress, how is that different that someone who ends up a garbage man because of hard luck? That person may not want to be a garbage man anymore than a woman wants to be a prostitute but as long as they are both paid a fair wage there is no exploitation is there?

Quote:
Using somebody against his will, or without his consent or knowledge
Obviously if such was occurring it would be illegal. Your assuming of course that all prostitutes are being used against their will or without their consent which is not true. You could actually use this as an argument for making prostitution legal since you could make sure that those who wished to provide the service freely were able to do so, and could crack down on those making women do so against their will much more easily.
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  #33  
Old Feb 24, '12, 8:28 pm
Nate13 Nate13 is offline
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Default Re: Homosexual Marriage Legal = Prostitution Legal?

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Originally Posted by Dale_M View Post
By "exploitation, I mean using another person to their detriment and without regard for their welfare.
Who are you to determine "detriment". I think homosexual persons are using each other to their "detriment". And without regard for their welfare? Some prostitutes are probably bringing home double or three times what you are and are not disregarding their welfare anymore than any other sexually active adult is. The whole society surrounding prostitution could be bad for their welfare but that is all the more reason to support legalizing it to clean it all up.
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  #34  
Old Feb 24, '12, 8:29 pm
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Leegal Leegal is offline
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Default Re: Homosexual Marriage Legal = Prostitution Legal?

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Originally Posted by Nate13 View Post
I'm sure there are many horror stories, but that is not the whole story of prostitution. It would be like writing off homosexuals as all being pedophiles and people who take advantage of each other for sex. Some people truly enjoy sex and like to make a living from it. (I'm playing devil's advocate here). As someone else mentioned John Stossel had a segment on todays showing exactly that.

I'm sure some women get married because they feel they have no other choice, but we don't make marriage illegal do we?
I'm sure people truly enjoy sex. I'm positive that the women who resort to prostitution do NOT do it out of true enjoyment of sex and love of men. In fact, I think most studies would say that there are many other reasons why women go into prostitution that have absolutely nothing to do with enjoying sex, or even liking the men.

I'm not sure where you are going with comment that some people believe marriage is their only choice, or what it means in the context of your topic. I fail to see the analogy.
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  #35  
Old Feb 24, '12, 8:35 pm
Nate13 Nate13 is offline
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Default Re: Homosexual Marriage Legal = Prostitution Legal?

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Originally Posted by Leegal View Post
I'm sure people truely enjoy sex. I'm not so sure that the people who resort to prostitution do it out of true enjoyment of sex and love of men. In fact, I think most studies would say that there are many other reasons why women go into prostitution that have absolutely nothing to do with enjoying sex.

I'm not sure where you are going with comment that some people believe marriage is their only choice, or what it means in the context of your topic. I fail to see the analogy.
Who said sex has to be about love? Why can a man employ his arms in the workforce even though he may not enjoy digging ditches all day, but a woman can't employ other parts of her body even if she doesn't always enjoy it? Can I only put my body to service if I enjoy it? It seems you are making a natural law argument here in connecting love to sex, in which case I would assume a natural law argument would be fine in the case of homosexual marriages?
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  #36  
Old Feb 24, '12, 8:51 pm
Dale_M Dale_M is offline
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Default Re: Homosexual Marriage Legal = Prostitution Legal?

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Originally Posted by Nate13 View Post
Some prostitutes are probably bringing home double or three times what you are and are not disregarding their welfare anymore than any other sexually active adult is. The whole society surrounding prostitution could be bad for their welfare but that is all the more reason to support legalizing it to clean it all up.
The exploitation in prostitution comes from persons who force another person to prostitute themselves and reap most of the financial benefits. Granted, there are some individuals who (for a few years) make good money as a prostitute as their own business choice. However, those individuals seem to be a small minority and even legalizing the trade doesn't eliminate the problem of exploitation.
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  #37  
Old Feb 24, '12, 8:54 pm
Nate13 Nate13 is offline
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Default Re: Homosexual Marriage Legal = Prostitution Legal?

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Originally Posted by Dale_M View Post
The exploitation in prostitution comes from persons who force another person to prostitute themselves and reap most of the financial benefits. Granted, there are some individuals who (for a few years) make good money as a prostitute as their own business choice. However, those individuals seem to be a small minority and even legalizing the trade doesn't eliminate the problem of exploitation.
I see well monogamous homosexual couples who actually adopt kids seem to be the minority so we should make sure homosexual marriage remains illegal as well....
Prostitution is not inherently exploitation thus you cannot make it inherently illegal on that basis.
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  #38  
Old Feb 24, '12, 9:04 pm
Semper Zelare Semper Zelare is offline
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Default Re: Homosexual Marriage Legal = Prostitution Legal?

Wow 36 replies with less than 400 views... I wish that could happen in the Vocations forum, or the Evangelization forum. Sometimes there will be threads on there with 400 views and 3 replies.


If only we Catholics cared more about stuff like that than debating the controversial things. Our Church isn't lacking a sound position on gay marriage or prostitution. It's lacking in vocations and evangelism. We're called to a New Evangelization.

And, I don't think winning gay-marriage debates with people is going to help us much
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  #39  
Old Feb 24, '12, 9:07 pm
Nate13 Nate13 is offline
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Default Re: Homosexual Marriage Legal = Prostitution Legal?

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Originally Posted by Semper Zelare View Post
Wow 36 replies with less than 400 views... I wish that could happen in the Vocations forum, or the Evangelization forum. Sometimes there will be threads on there with 400 views and 3 replies.


If only we Catholics cared more about stuff like that than debating the controversial things. Our Church isn't lacking a sound position on gay marriage or prostitution. It's lacking in vocations and evangelism. We're called to a New Evangelization.

And, I don't think winning gay-marriage debates with people is going to help us much
I'm trying to get people to realize that the legalization of gay marriage is a moral issue and some of us just like to debate
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  #40  
Old Feb 25, '12, 6:58 am
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Leegal Leegal is offline
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Default Re: Homosexual Marriage Legal = Prostitution Legal?

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Originally Posted by Nate13 View Post
Many prostitutes make more than engineers. If paying well is indirectly forcing someone to work then a lot of people are being exploited. As long as a prostitute is being paid a reasonable wage for her services there would be no exploitation. If it was legal you could better set wages to make sure they received a just wage. Even if being a prostitute is a decision brought upon by economic distress, how is that different that someone who ends up a garbage man because of hard luck? That person may not want to be a garbage man anymore than a woman wants to be a prostitute but as long as they are both paid a fair wage there is no exploitation is there?



Obviously if such was occurring it would be illegal. Your assuming of course that all prostitutes are being used against their will or without their consent which is not true. You could actually use this as an argument for making prostitution legal since you could make sure that those who wished to provide the service freely were able to do so, and could crack down on those making women do so against their will much more easily.
Forcing someone to work, by my definition, is not only physical force. Someone who has been sexually abused by a child may be "forced" to turn to prostitution having been previously exploited as a child. She now sees, for her own reasons, that this is the way to earn money. Further, yes, prostitutes can make more money than check out operators. For many reasons women are "forced" into prostitution because they have no better way of supporting themselves. They don't see the alternatives. By the way, garbage men here make excellent money; they are a uniformed service, it's hard work and they receive excellent compensation. Garbage men are unionized and work for the government.

I never said we should legalize prostitution. I gave the reasons why we should not and cannot. Yes, they are being "used" in some fashion. See my reply in #21.
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  #41  
Old Feb 25, '12, 2:06 pm
Nate13 Nate13 is offline
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Default Re: Homosexual Marriage Legal = Prostitution Legal?

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Originally Posted by Leegal View Post
Forcing someone to work, by my definition, is not only physical force. Someone who has been sexually abused by a child may be "forced" to turn to prostitution having been previously exploited as a child. She now sees, for her own reasons, that this is the way to earn money. Further, yes, prostitutes can make more money than check out operators. For many reasons women are "forced" into prostitution because they have no better way of supporting themselves. They don't see the alternatives. By the way, garbage men here make excellent money; they are a uniformed service, it's hard work and they receive excellent compensation. Garbage men are unionized and work for the government.

I never said we should legalize prostitution. I gave the reasons why we should not and cannot. Yes, they are being "used" in some fashion. See my reply in #21.
This is bogus. You keep pointing to all the reasons a woman who is a prostitute may be exploited to do so. Do you truly believe everyone woman who is a prostitute is being exploited? In other words do you really believe prostitution by definition is always exploitation? If not how can you make prostitution in general illegal? I also have to ask why I should take your opinion as to whether people are being exploited? In a similar fashion to the "born this way" argument for homosexuals who are you to tell a women differently if she says she is not being exploited? I will continue to stand by my position that there are no solid grounds to make prostitution in general illegal unless you use moral arguments. If a woman is being forced to have sex against her will that is rape and is already covered by the law.

I think you give too little credence to the sexual revolution. Sex is about power now which sometimes means loves but many times it doesn't. I see no reason sex has to be associated with love if moral grounds of arguing are ignored. Society right now might not be quite ripe enough to get majority support for legalized prostitution, but we are getting there.
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  #42  
Old Feb 25, '12, 2:20 pm
TheTrueCentrist TheTrueCentrist is offline
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Default Re: Homosexual Marriage Legal = Prostitution Legal?

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Originally Posted by Nate13 View Post
The fundamental basis for making homosexual marriage legal is the argument that the government has no business in what two consenting adults do in bed. Prostitution would seem to also fit that same argument. If the legality of homosexual marriage is not a moral concern wouldn't that also mean prostitution is not a moral concern where you have two consenting adults involved? In my opinion if homosexual marriage becomes legal nationwide and its denied that homosexual marriage is a moral issue, prostitution would be a sure bet to follow closely in its wake in legality. Thoughts?
Theoretically divorce = prostitution legal. All prostitutes have to do is temporarily marry their clients.
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  #43  
Old Feb 25, '12, 4:01 pm
Nate13 Nate13 is offline
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Default Re: Homosexual Marriage Legal = Prostitution Legal?

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Originally Posted by TheTrueCentrist View Post
Theoretically divorce = prostitution legal. All prostitutes have to do is temporarily marry their clients.
That would be a lot of work and destroys the idea of keeping a low profile.
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  #44  
Old Feb 25, '12, 4:37 pm
Christopher68 Christopher68 is offline
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Default Re: Homosexual Marriage Legal = Prostitution Legal?

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Originally Posted by BListon View Post
You know... this is KINDA off topic, but i've always wondered why prostitution is illegal, but being an "adult film star" is perfectly legal... the only difference is one is being filmed and the other isn't
With regard to the illegality of prostitution, I have never understood why it is illegal to sell something that is perfectly legal to give away. It defies all logic and reason. That's not to say that the act isn't immoral, just that its illegality is nonsensical.
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  #45  
Old Feb 25, '12, 9:14 pm
TheTrueCentrist TheTrueCentrist is offline
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Default Re: Homosexual Marriage Legal = Prostitution Legal?

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That would be a lot of work and destroys the idea of keeping a low profile.
Both of those considerations are irrelevant to the question of legality.
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