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  #76  
Old Feb 25, '12, 11:39 am
meltzerboy meltzerboy is offline
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Default Re: Dinosaurs do not seem a loving response to creation

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Originally Posted by petrel View Post
prove it. The Sacred Scripture says that the land based creatures were created on the same day as Adam. The genealogies are also contained in Sacred Scripture therefore we can easily deduce that between 6 and 7 thousand years have transpired since Adam was created.
There is a very small minority of Orthodox Jews who also take a strictly literal view of Scripture and would agree with you that the Earth is between 6 and 7 thousand years old. The vast majority side with the theory of evolution, as do most Catholics, so long as it is recognized that G-d started and maintains the process. Your belief sounds to me more in keeping with some of the Fundamentalist Protestants. That's your prerogative, however. I think you should recognize though that the Church does not require such a literal interpretation of Genesis.
  #77  
Old Feb 25, '12, 11:42 am
Dale_M Dale_M is offline
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Default Re: Dinosaurs do not seem a loving response to creation

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Originally Posted by wheels10 View Post
Isaiah 11:6 The wolf shall dwell with the lamb: and the leopard shall lie down with the kid: the calf and the lion, and the sheep shall abide together, and a little child shall lead them. 7 The calf and the bear shall feed: their young ones shall rest together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. 8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp: and the weaned child shall thrust his hand into the den of the basilisk. 9 They shall not hurt, nor shall they kill in all my holy mountain, for the earth is filled with the knowledge of the Lord, as the covering waters of the sea.

It may be that prior to the introduction of evil into this world, all of the Dinosaurs also behaved this way, ie. they did not kill each other.
Possibly. However, I am not sure that passage should be read literally. Much of the language of the Bible is figurative, particularly regarding creation.

I don't think Original Sin destroyed God's ordering of the world. That gives Adam and Eve too much power. Rather, the actions of Adam and Eve destroyed the human relationship with God. And it destroyed the human relationship with the world, which had been one of harmony.

Quoting from the Catechism of the Catholic Church
Quote:
390 The account of the fall in Genesis 3 uses figurative language, but affirms a primeval event, a deed that took place at the beginning of the history of man.264 Revelation gives us the certainty of faith that the whole of human history is marked by the original fault freely committed by our first parents.265
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396 God created man in his image and established him in his friendship. A spiritual creature, man can live this friendship only in free submission to God. The prohibition against eating "of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil" spells this out: "for in the day that you eat of it, you shall die."276 The "tree of the knowledge of good and evil"277 symbolically evokes the insurmountable limits that man, being a creature, must freely recognize and respect with trust. Man is dependent on his Creator, and subject to the laws of creation and to the moral norms that govern the use of freedom.
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399 Scripture portrays the tragic consequences of this first disobedience. Adam and Eve immediately lose the grace of original holiness.280 They become afraid of the God of whom they have conceived a distorted image - that of a God jealous of his prerogatives.281

400 The harmony in which they had found themselves, thanks to original justice, is now destroyed: the control of the soul's spiritual faculties over the body is shattered; the union of man and woman becomes subject to tensions, their relations henceforth marked by lust and domination.282 Harmony with creation is broken: visible creation has become alien and hostile to man.283 Because of man, creation is now subject "to its bondage to decay".284 Finally, the consequence explicitly foretold for this disobedience will come true: man will "return to the ground",285 for out of it he was taken. Death makes its entrance into human history.286
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_cs...m/p1s2c1p7.htm

The teaching of the Church is not that death didn't exist for animals prior to the Fall, but that death did not exist for humans. Original sin meant that we no longer had a privileged relationship with creation. This could be taken to mean suffering the same conflicts and violence that animals experienced.
  #78  
Old Feb 25, '12, 11:44 am
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Default Re: Dinosaurs do not seem a loving response to creation

What does the OP and people who agree with them hope to prove here?

That God is not loving?

That dinosaurs must have been herbivores? Or didn't exist at all?

That the Bible is a science textbook? (potentially conflicting with Catholic teaching)

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  #79  
Old Feb 25, '12, 1:39 pm
petrel petrel is offline
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Default Re: Dinosaurs do not seem a loving response to creation

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Originally Posted by meltzerboy View Post
There is a very small minority of Orthodox Jews who also take a strictly literal view of Scripture and would agree with you that the Earth is between 6 and 7 thousand years old. The vast majority side with the theory of evolution, as do most Catholics, so long as it is recognized that G-d started and maintains the process. Your belief sounds to me more in keeping with some of the Fundamentalist Protestants. That's your prerogative, however. I think you should recognize though that the Church does not require such a literal interpretation of Genesis.
What do I care about what the "vast majority" believe. I am only interested in what Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition say; and in both cases they are emphatic in the belief in 6000 year history of the earth.

There is also predicted to be a great falling away at the end of history. I do not aim to be one of them. What amazes me is that the Catholic church loudly proclaims Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture against the Fundamental Protestants with regards to issues such as the Eucharist; and yet they are ones abandoning Sacred Tradition and Sacred Tradition when it comes to the subject of evolution.

Catholics need to take a good hard look at this rank double standard.
  #80  
Old Feb 25, '12, 2:31 pm
LegoGE1947 LegoGE1947 is offline
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Default Re: Dinosaurs do not seem a loving response to creation

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Originally Posted by Lost Wanderer View Post
The portion of Sacred Scripture you cite also mentions a giant land beast and a giant sea monster.

I doubt even the Pope believes such fairy tale literalism.
The giant land beast could be an elephant or giraffe and the sea monster, a whale or a white shark. Remember that the Bible was written in language that people of that day could understand and relate to. They believed the earth sat on pillars and that the abyss was under the sea and other things that we know today are not true but were myths to help them understand sort of. They would not understand things that we take for granted in the 20th and 21st centuries.
  #81  
Old Feb 25, '12, 2:48 pm
petrel petrel is offline
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Default Re: Dinosaurs do not seem a loving response to creation

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Originally Posted by LegoGE1947 View Post
The giant land beast could be an elephant or giraffe and the sea monster, a whale or a white shark. Remember that the Bible was written in language that people of that day could understand and relate to. They believed the earth sat on pillars and that the abyss was under the sea and other things that we know today are not true but were myths to help them understand sort of. They would not understand things that we take for granted in the 20th and 21st centuries.
Have you read the book of Job? Giraffes, elephants, whales or sharks were not being described. Leviathin and Behemoth were not any creature that exists on the earth today.
Ancient people were not stupid. They were quite able to describe a whale and elephant in normal terms that could be understood today without embellishing their description with fantastic imaginations.

The reason these descriptions exist in the scripture is because two real creatures are being described which were known to the ancient people.
  #82  
Old Feb 25, '12, 2:54 pm
petrel petrel is offline
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Default Re: Dinosaurs do not seem a loving response to creation

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Originally Posted by Catholic90 View Post
Let there be light.

I will say it again.....THE BIBLE IS NOT A SCIENCE TEXTBOOK.
No, it is a BOOK OFf TRUTH and everything which it states is TRUE, whether it is in matters of science, history, morals, faith etc.

The popes around the time of Vatican 1 were very clear on that point.

Further to that, the Sacred Tradition is not a body of scientific knowledge, it is a body of revealed truth handed from the apostles down through the ages to this present day. And again, as with the scripture, the Sacred Tradition is unequivocal that the earth and heavens were created in six days approximately 6000 years ago.
  #83  
Old Feb 25, '12, 3:04 pm
Jelrak TB Jelrak TB is offline
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Default Re: Dinosaurs do not seem a loving response to creation

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Originally Posted by Dale_M View Post
We really don't know what heaven is like, but since we will be in perfect communion with God (who is omniscient) I think we will appreciate the good without need for a physical reminder of the lack of good.
Would that suggest that the only reason there is evil in this world is because God purposefully withheld information from mankind that would have made such difficulty unnecessary?

Quote:
God created mankind in his own image. The Fall brought us a broken nature, which includes the sufferings experienced by animals.

Well, no. God's plan for animals and God's plan for humans was very different. Again, God created us in his image. It was Original Sin which took us away from that.
If the fall made it possible for mankind to behave like animals, why would God find such behavior to be both good and evil? Why outline the goodness of his work in creating animals and their nature, while at the same time condemning mankind to all manner of trials and deprivation for behaving likewise? Would one not expect a holy creator to use the animals as an example of what is *not* good instead of declaring them otherwise?
  #84  
Old Feb 25, '12, 3:09 pm
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Default Re: Dinosaurs do not seem a loving response to creation

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Originally Posted by petrel View Post
No, it is a BOOK OFf TRUTH and everything which it states is TRUE, whether it is in matters of science, history, morals, faith etc.

The popes around the time of Vatican 1 were very clear on that point.

Further to that, the Sacred Tradition is not a body of scientific knowledge, it is a body of revealed truth handed from the apostles down through the ages to this present day. And again, as with the scripture, the Sacred Tradition is unequivocal that the earth and heavens were created in six days approximately 6000 years ago.
The Popes around the time of V1 still thought the sun rotated around the Earth. So what's your point?
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  #85  
Old Feb 25, '12, 3:12 pm
Jelrak TB Jelrak TB is offline
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Default Re: Dinosaurs do not seem a loving response to creation

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Originally Posted by ora_pro_nobis View Post
Gorillas are largely herbivore, those that are omnivore tend to eat ants and termites. Are you sure it was gorillas you saw?
They sure seemed like gorillas. Perhaps they were Bonobos or something similar. On the other hand:

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...als-feces-dna/

Either way, is it relevant to the point? Was what I saw nature acting the way it was intended by a loving god?
  #86  
Old Feb 25, '12, 3:16 pm
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Default Re: Dinosaurs do not seem a loving response to creation

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Originally Posted by Jelrak TB View Post
They sure seemed like gorillas. Perhaps they were Bonobos or something similar. On the other hand:

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...als-feces-dna/

Either way, is it relevant to the point? Was what I saw nature acting the way it was intended by a loving god?
Again, God loves us because we're in his image. He loves his whole creation.

But if nature existed the way you describe, no one could ever eat meat. Every creature would be herbivores.

Is this a complicated way of promoting vegetarianism?
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  #87  
Old Feb 25, '12, 3:19 pm
Jelrak TB Jelrak TB is offline
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Default Re: Dinosaurs do not seem a loving response to creation

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Originally Posted by wheels10 View Post
If man were to have discovered the bones and teeth of a Lion during the time of the dinosaur, would he also have determined that the Lion killed other animals?

Isaiah 11:6 The wolf shall dwell with the lamb: and the leopard shall lie down with the kid: the calf and the lion, and the sheep shall abide together, and a little child shall lead them. 7 The calf and the bear shall feed: their young ones shall rest together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. 8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp: and the weaned child shall thrust his hand into the den of the basilisk. 9 They shall not hurt, nor shall they kill in all my holy mountain, for the earth is filled with the knowledge of the Lord, as the covering waters of the sea.

It may be that prior to the introduction of evil into this world, all of the Dinosaurs also behaved this way, ie. they did not kill each other.
Perhaps their gigantic claws were originally designed to help them play pick-up-sticks and their huge teeth to flash pleasing smiles to one another, but God, being omniscient, would also have understood exactly how we would have interpreted the evidence. It is also difficult to imagine how the big-toothed beasts chewed their celery.
  #88  
Old Feb 25, '12, 4:31 pm
Catholic90 Catholic90 is offline
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Default Re: Dinosaurs do not seem a loving response to creation

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Originally Posted by petrel View Post
What do I care about what the "vast majority" believe. I am only interested in what Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition say; and in both cases they are emphatic in the belief in 6000 year history of the earth.

There is also predicted to be a great falling away at the end of history. I do not aim to be one of them. What amazes me is that the Catholic church loudly proclaims Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture against the Fundamental Protestants with regards to issues such as the Eucharist; and yet they are ones abandoning Sacred Tradition and Sacred Tradition when it comes to the subject of evolution.

Catholics need to take a good hard look at this rank double standard.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LemonAndLime View Post
The Popes around the time of V1 still thought the sun rotated around the Earth. So what's your point?
One can be a very faithful Catholic and not believe the world is a literal 6,000 years old.

Petrel, is your view heliocentric or geocentric? You never answered that.

As LemonAndLime stated, early Popes preached we were a heliocentric system. Do you believe that?
  #89  
Old Feb 25, '12, 4:33 pm
Catholic90 Catholic90 is offline
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Default Re: Dinosaurs do not seem a loving response to creation

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Originally Posted by petrel View Post
No, it is a BOOK OFf TRUTH and everything which it states is TRUE, whether it is in matters of science, history, morals, faith etc.

The popes around the time of Vatican 1 were very clear on that point.

Further to that, the Sacred Tradition is not a body of scientific knowledge, it is a body of revealed truth handed from the apostles down through the ages to this present day. And again, as with the scripture, the Sacred Tradition is unequivocal that the earth and heavens were created in six days approximately 6000 years ago.
Catholics are not Sola Scripture. The Bible is not a Science book.
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Old Feb 25, '12, 4:58 pm
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Default Re: Dinosaurs do not seem a loving response to creation

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Originally Posted by LegoGE1947 View Post
The giant land beast could be an elephant or giraffe and the sea monster, a whale or a white shark. Remember that the Bible was written in language that people of that day could understand and relate to. They believed the earth sat on pillars and that the abyss was under the sea and other things that we know today are not true but were myths to help them understand sort of. They would not understand things that we take for granted in the 20th and 21st centuries.
You're... kinda proving my point.

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Originally Posted by petrel View Post
The reason these descriptions exist in the scripture is because two real creatures are being described which were known to the ancient people.
Right... so you actually believe prehistoric creatures breathed fire too?

What next? You're going to tell me that furnace soot causes boils? That sand can transmute into flies?

You haven't even addressed the fact that humanity itself would still have very slim chances living alongside such creatures. Given how primitive we were back then, do pray-tell explain how the likes of Adam and Eve survived without being squashed, eaten, gored, stampeded, trampled, snatched, mauled, ambushed, and all other sorts of grisly deaths you'd see on a Jurassic Park movie?
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