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  #76  
Old Feb 26, '12, 12:45 pm
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karaleigh karaleigh is offline
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Default Re: Was the church Jesus said he would build the Roman Catholic Church?What about the other churches?

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Originally Posted by 174a View Post
And there was me thinking we were all one in Christ Jesus.
Learning in school the bases of secular religion, Protestants are greatly involved and evolved through the verses of the 'Good Samaritan'...helping thy neighbor. Though Protestant legacy associates with those verses (Gospel of Luke 10:25-37), Protestants share a closer association with the verses John 4:7-14 which is Jesus' explanation for our understanding of the Samaritan woman...the woman at the well.
Why fret? Protestants are the branch that has a root in the King James Version, that should tell you how long the journey with Jesus as Lord can be.
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  #77  
Old Feb 26, '12, 1:34 pm
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Default Re: Was the church Jesus said he would build the Roman Catholic Church?What about the other churches?

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Originally Posted by JReducation View Post
The Catholic Church dropped this kind of rhetoric a long time ago and it's time that we do too.

816 "The sole Church of Christ [is that] which our Savior, after his Resurrection, entrusted to Peter's pastoral care, commissioning him and the other apostles to extend and rule it. . . . This Church, constituted and organized as a society in the present world, subsists in (subsistit in) the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the bishops in communion with him."267

The Second Vatican Council's Decree on Ecumenism explains: "For it is through Christ's Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help toward salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained. It was to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the head, that we believe that our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant, in order to establish on earth the one Body of Christ into which all those should be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the People of God."268


We recognize that the fullness of salvation is found only in the Catholic Church. However we also believe the following.

818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."

Current Protestants are not demons or evil.

In addition, we also believe

819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."

Christ uses the Catholic elements of sanctification present in Protestant communities to save. We cannot handcuff God or label others devils, when our Catholic ancestors were equally guilty of the rupture in Christianity. They often dealt unfairly with the first generation Protestants, refusing to hear them out and refusing to acknowledge what was truth in their complaints. In other words, they did not separate the truth from the errors. They condemned them as ruthlessly as they Protestants condemned their fellow Christians. If truth be told, there was enough guilt to go around on both sides. Today, we Catholics are big enough to acknowledge this, even if some Protestants won't step up to the plate an acknowledge the faults of their ancestors. We have to be honest.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF
In that I was raised (Roman Catholic), the below except is the bases for the dispute with the brotherhood in communion with Protestant congregations. Correct me if i'm wrong, but the below link say that as of 1978 Protestants were not in a state of Trinitarianism, that is, they didn't see the trinity(created by the Son called Jesus) as applicable for sanctification. Is that for or against our presious Jesus in regards to the Pentecost and the return of the Holy Spirit for human guidance?

The 1978 Anglican Lambeth Conference requested:
"that all member Churches of the Anglican Communion should consider omitting the Filioque from the Nicene Creed, and that the Anglican-Orthodox Joint Doctrinal Commission through the Anglican Consultative Council should assist them in presenting the theological issues to their appropriate synodical bodies and should be responsible for any necessary consultation with other Churches of the Western tradition...None of the member Churches has implemented this request; but the Church of England, while keeping the phrase in the Creed recited in its own services, presents in its Common Worship series of service books a text of the creed without it for use "on suitable ecumenical occasions". Most Protestant groups that use the creed also include the Filioque clause. Filioque...The filioque clause is a heavily disputed part of Christian trinitarian theology and one of the core differences between Catholic and Orthodox traditions. The Latin term filioque means "and [from] the son," referring to whether the Holy Spirit "proceeds" from the Father alone or both from the Father and the Son. In the Orthodox tradition, the Nicene Creed reads, "We believe in the Holy Spirit … who proceeds from the Father," while in the Catholic tradition it reads "We believe in the Holy Spirit… who proceeds from the Father and the Son."" Again, Most Protestant groups that use the creed also include the Filioque clause. [i]A representative view of Protestant Trinitarian theology is more difficult to provide, given the diverse and decentralized nature of the various Protestant churches. (Wikipedia, Trinity)

Without the Son called Jesus there is not trinity.
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  #78  
Old Feb 26, '12, 3:45 pm
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JReducation JReducation is offline
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Default Re: Was the church Jesus said he would build the Roman Catholic Church?What about the other churches?

Quote:
Originally Posted by karaleigh View Post
In that I was raised (Roman Catholic), the below except is the bases for the dispute with the brotherhood in communion with Protestant congregations. Correct me if i'm wrong, but the below link say that as of 1978 Protestants were not in a state of Trinitarianism, that is, they didn't see the trinity(created by the Son called Jesus) as applicable for sanctification. Is that for or against our presious Jesus in regards to the Pentecost and the return of the Holy Spirit for human guidance?

The 1978 Anglican Lambeth Conference requested:
"that all member Churches of the Anglican Communion should consider omitting the Filioque from the Nicene Creed, and that the Anglican-Orthodox Joint Doctrinal Commission through the Anglican Consultative Council should assist them in presenting the theological issues to their appropriate synodical bodies and should be responsible for any necessary consultation with other Churches of the Western tradition...None of the member Churches has implemented this request; but the Church of England, while keeping the phrase in the Creed recited in its own services, presents in its Common Worship series of service books a text of the creed without it for use "on suitable ecumenical occasions". Most Protestant groups that use the creed also include the Filioque clause. Filioque...The filioque clause is a heavily disputed part of Christian trinitarian theology and one of the core differences between Catholic and Orthodox traditions. The Latin term filioque means "and [from] the son," referring to whether the Holy Spirit "proceeds" from the Father alone or both from the Father and the Son. In the Orthodox tradition, the Nicene Creed reads, "We believe in the Holy Spirit … who proceeds from the Father," while in the Catholic tradition it reads "We believe in the Holy Spirit… who proceeds from the Father and the Son."" Again, Most Protestant groups that use the creed also include the Filioque clause. [i]A representative view of Protestant Trinitarian theology is more difficult to provide, given the diverse and decentralized nature of the various Protestant churches. (Wikipedia, Trinity)

Without the Son called Jesus there is not trinity.
They are not taking the second person out of the Trinity. The debate has been whether it should say,

"I believe in the Holy Spirit who proceeds from the Father and the Son,"

or

"I believe in the Holy Spirit who proceeds from the Father through the Son,"

What some communities have done is taken the line right out of the Apostles' Creed, "I believe in the Holy Spirit" and then they creed continues as usual.

I can't remember what the situation was that Pope Benedict hosted several Orthodox Patriarchs and when they recited the Creed, he omitted the Filioque and incerted, "I believe in the Holy Spirit".

Remember, that in the previous confession in the Nicene Creed you have already said that you believe in Jesus Christ who is consubstantial with the Father. That part is not disputed by any Christian tradition.

The debate is not about whether there is a Trinity, but about the processions. The Orthodox do not use it and there is one Eastern Catholic Church that has made it optional their so called evangelists are the murderers of many souls who preach hatred and lies about the Lords one true Church. .

But what I was addressing was the language in this statement

protestant ministers and their so called evangelists are the murderers of many souls who preach hatred and lies about the Lords one true Church. We can only pray that Lord will take the devil out of these protestant hearts and show them the truth.


The Holy See has made it very clear in word and in action that it does not see Protestant ministers as agents of the devil or malevolent. In Ut Unum Sint, Bl. John Paul tells Catholics to refrain from making negative statements about non-Catholics. Just because others may be rude to us, does not mean that we return the favor.

The Church acknowledges that in some way, unknown to us, Jesus Christ uses the Catholic truths taught in the Reformation Communities to save souls. While the fullness of trust subsists in the Catholic Church, the other Christian communities are not deprived of all truth and are not totally separated from the Catholic Church. There are Catholic elements in them.

Since salvation comes through the Catholic Church, Jesus uses those Catholic elements to save those who are faithful to them and who genuinely seek him.

Because we can see that there is good there, the Catholic Church has moved away from the language of condemnation and judgment. Her hope is that the faithful Catholic will move toward the language that invites the non-Catholic Christian to move closer and closer to the fullness of truth until he finds himself in the Catholic Church. Such language, as I cited above, is not inviting. It's offensive and it's not what the Catholic Church believes.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF
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Fraternally,

Brother JR, FFV

"Forget not love."


How long have I waited . . .
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  #79  
Old Feb 26, '12, 5:38 pm
TimothyH TimothyH is offline
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Default Re: Was the church Jesus said he would build the Roman Catholic Church?What about the other churches?

Quote:
Originally Posted by karaleigh View Post
In that I was raised (Roman Catholic), the below except is the bases for the dispute with the brotherhood in communion with Protestant congregations. Correct me if i'm wrong, but the below link say that as of 1978 Protestants were not in a state of Trinitarianism, that is, they didn't see the trinity(created by the Son called Jesus) as applicable for sanctification. Is that for or against our presious Jesus in regards to the Pentecost and the return of the Holy Spirit for human guidance?

The 1978 Anglican Lambeth Conference requested:
"that all member Churches of the Anglican Communion should consider omitting the Filioque from the Nicene Creed, and that the Anglican-Orthodox Joint Doctrinal Commission through the Anglican Consultative Council should assist them in presenting the theological issues to their appropriate synodical bodies and should be responsible for any necessary consultation with other Churches of the Western tradition...None of the member Churches has implemented this request; but the Church of England, while keeping the phrase in the Creed recited in its own services, presents in its Common Worship series of service books a text of the creed without it for use "on suitable ecumenical occasions". Most Protestant groups that use the creed also include the Filioque clause. Filioque...The filioque clause is a heavily disputed part of Christian trinitarian theology and one of the core differences between Catholic and Orthodox traditions. The Latin term filioque means "and [from] the son," referring to whether the Holy Spirit "proceeds" from the Father alone or both from the Father and the Son. In the Orthodox tradition, the Nicene Creed reads, "We believe in the Holy Spirit … who proceeds from the Father," while in the Catholic tradition it reads "We believe in the Holy Spirit… who proceeds from the Father and the Son."" Again, Most Protestant groups that use the creed also include the Filioque clause. [i]A representative view of Protestant Trinitarian theology is more difficult to provide, given the diverse and decentralized nature of the various Protestant churches. (Wikipedia, Trinity)

Without the Son called Jesus there is not trinity.
The Lambeth Conference is the metting of the Bishops of the Anglican Church which occurs every ten years.

Anything which comes out of the Lambeth Conference is specific only to the Anglican Church and to no other denomination.


-Tim-
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  #80  
Old Feb 26, '12, 9:16 pm
174a 174a is offline
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Default Re: Was the church Jesus said he would build the Roman Catholic Church?What about the other churches?

Quote:
Originally Posted by karaleigh View Post
Learning in school the bases of secular religion, Protestants are greatly involved and evolved through the verses of the 'Good Samaritan'...helping thy neighbor. Though Protestant legacy associates with those verses (Gospel of Luke 10:25-37), Protestants share a closer association with the verses John 4:7-14 which is Jesus' explanation for our understanding of the Samaritan woman...the woman at the well.
Why fret? Protestants are the branch that has a root in the King James Version, that should tell you how long the journey with Jesus as Lord can be.
You did right to point to Jesus, if we all looked to him we wouldn't be looking at each other and squabbling all the while.

.
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  #81  
Old Feb 27, '12, 6:48 am
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RastaPasta RastaPasta is offline
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Question Re: Was the church Jesus said he would build the Roman Catholic Church?What about the other churches?

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Originally Posted by JReducation View Post

But you cannot say to a Maronite Catholic that his is not Catholic, because he is not Roman Catholic or to a Greek Catholic that the Roman Catholic Church is the only Catholic Church.
I know that there is Greek Orthodox (which is not Catholic) but I'm a bit confused. There is such a thing as Greek Catholic as well?
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  #82  
Old Feb 27, '12, 6:53 am
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JharekCarnelian JharekCarnelian is online now
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Default Re: Was the church Jesus said he would build the Roman Catholic Church?What about the other churches?

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Originally Posted by RastaPasta View Post
I know that there is Greek Orthodox (which is not Catholic) but I'm a bit confused. There is such a thing as Greek Catholic as well?
Yep. Along with the many other sui juris Churches.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Catholic_Church
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  #83  
Old Feb 27, '12, 7:07 am
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ByzCathCantor ByzCathCantor is offline
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Lightbulb Re: Was the church Jesus said he would build the Roman Catholic Church?What about the other churches?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RastaPasta View Post
I know that there is Greek Orthodox (which is not Catholic) but I'm a bit confused. There is such a thing as Greek Catholic as well?
Quote:
Originally Posted by JharekCarnelian View Post
Yep. Along with the many other sui juris Churches.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Catholic_Church
The Greek Catholic Churches are a subset of the other sui juris Churches in communion with Rome. They follow the Byzantine Rite, albeit with unique expression through their liturgical chant, etc.
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"Christ always gives his Church the gift of unity, but the Church must always pray and work to maintain, reinforce, and perfect the unity that Christ wills for her."- Catechism of the Catholic Church, "Toward Unity" (CCC 820)
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  #84  
Old Feb 27, '12, 1:59 pm
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karaleigh karaleigh is offline
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Default Re: Was the church Jesus said he would build the Roman Catholic Church?What about the other churches?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JReducation View Post
They are not taking the second person out of the Trinity. The debate has been whether it should say,

"I believe in the Holy Spirit who proceeds from the Father and the Son,"

or

"I believe in the Holy Spirit who proceeds from the Father through the Son,"

What some communities have done is taken the line right out of the Apostles' Creed, "I believe in the Holy Spirit" and then they creed continues as usual.

I can't remember what the situation was that Pope Benedict hosted several Orthodox Patriarchs and when they recited the Creed, he omitted the Filioque and incerted, "I believe in the Holy Spirit".

Remember, that in the previous confession in the Nicene Creed you have already said that you believe in Jesus Christ who is consubstantial with the Father. That part is not disputed by any Christian tradition.

The debate is not about whether there is a Trinity, but about the processions. The Orthodox do not use it and there is one Eastern Catholic Church that has made it optional their so called evangelists are the murderers of many souls who preach hatred and lies about the Lords one true Church. .

But what I was addressing was the language in this statement

protestant ministers and their so called evangelists are the murderers of many souls who preach hatred and lies about the Lords one true Church. We can only pray that Lord will take the devil out of these protestant hearts and show them the truth.


The Holy See has made it very clear in word and in action that it does not see Protestant ministers as agents of the devil or malevolent. In Ut Unum Sint, Bl. John Paul tells Catholics to refrain from making negative statements about non-Catholics. Just because others may be rude to us, does not mean that we return the favor.

The Church acknowledges that in some way, unknown to us, Jesus Christ uses the Catholic truths taught in the Reformation Communities to save souls. While the fullness of trust subsists in the Catholic Church, the other Christian communities are not deprived of all truth and are not totally separated from the Catholic Church. There are Catholic elements in them.

Since salvation comes through the Catholic Church, Jesus uses those Catholic elements to save those who are faithful to them and who genuinely seek him.

Because we can see that there is good there, the Catholic Church has moved away from the language of condemnation and judgment. Her hope is that the faithful Catholic will move toward the language that invites the non-Catholic Christian to move closer and closer to the fullness of truth until he finds himself in the Catholic Church. Such language, as I cited above, is not inviting. It's offensive and it's not what the Catholic Church believes.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF
You have no squabbles with me concerning the requests of the Pope. Yes, we all should be mindful of other religious organizations in the world, as well as, among the Christian societies. I believe the Pope Benedict also remarked that it is the responsibly of every Roman Catholic Christian to instruct in the proper manner towards salvation, and that no child or person should be considered without hope towards that salvation in Christ. My point is that unless, as instructors in the Word, we establish a sound understanding of our faith in the Holy Roman Church and it's personal teaching we will most likely be deluded into the misconceptions that many Christian organizations now have...what to add, what to take away. I do believe the Pope also added that concern to his statement on our faith this year.
Thanks for your input, I will remember your words, and that mankind shares with the Church of God through the Baptism of the Lord.
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  #85  
Old Feb 27, '12, 3:31 pm
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ByzCathCantor ByzCathCantor is offline
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Default Re: Was the church Jesus said he would build the Roman Catholic Church?What about the other churches?

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Originally Posted by karaleigh View Post
You have no squabbles with me concerning the requests of the Pope. Yes, we all should be mindful of other religious organizations in the world, as well as, among the Christian societies. I believe the Pope Benedict also remarked that it is the responsibly of every Roman Catholic Christian to instruct in the proper manner towards salvation, and that no child or person should be considered without hope towards that salvation in Christ. My point is that unless, as instructors in the Word, we establish a sound understanding of our faith in the Holy Roman Church and it's personal teaching we will most likely be deluded into the misconceptions that many Christian organizations now have...what to add, what to take away. I do believe the Pope also added that concern to his statement on our faith this year.
Nice post!

Yes, we should be mindful that the Apostles of our Lord needed much preparation - three years or so of hearing our Lord daily, witness to His death and Resurrection, and the divine inspiration of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost Sunday. They also needed the support of each other. Christ chose twelve intentionally, and designated Peter as first among them with like intent and purpose. That said, even if our own personal beliefs are strong and well ordered, evangelizing requires different strengths and skills.

I am reminded of a quote from Cardinal Dolan's speech last week:

Quote:
The New Evangelization is accomplished with a smile, not a frown!
So as we better prepare ourselves in our Lenten journey to be witnesses to the Lord among other, let's keep on smiling!
__________________
"Christ always gives his Church the gift of unity, but the Church must always pray and work to maintain, reinforce, and perfect the unity that Christ wills for her."- Catechism of the Catholic Church, "Toward Unity" (CCC 820)
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  #86  
Old Jul 10, '12, 9:52 pm
CaptFun CaptFun is online now
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Default Re: Was the church Jesus said he would build the Roman Catholic Church?What about the other churches?

Sentence 1: Yes. (The Church)

Sentence 2: Yeeee-aaaaahhh. What ABOUT THEM? < (church-ES)
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  #87  
Old Jul 11, '12, 7:54 am
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Default Re: Was the church Jesus said he would build the Roman Catholic Church?What about the other churches?

The Catholic Church is the One, True church that Christ intended to exist after His ascension into heaven and of which He left Peter as it's first Pope....264 popes later to Pope Benedict XVI. And the gates of hell have not and will not prevail against her.

All other Christians (those who believe and profess the divinity of Christ) came from the aforementioned Catholic Church and some day they will all return to the aforementioned Catholic Church.

Remember the vision of St. John Bosco of the great Catholic Flagship and the smaller vessels sailing alongside.
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  #88  
Old Jul 23, '12, 10:36 am
adrix adrix is offline
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Default Re: Was the church Jesus said he would build the Roman Catholic Church?What about the other churches?

The wholeness of faith and teaching as handed down by God the father through Jesus Christ(God) to the apostles, guided by the Holy Spirit(God) can only be found in the Catholic Church. Jesus said;"i have sheep that are not of this fold and i must go and bring them too, so that they may be one sheep and one shepherd..." all other religions have segments of the truth and much as they attack the Catholic Church, it is out of wanting to get the 98% of the pie they don't have the chance to eat. the void they feel from not having the Eucharist, wondering if their doctrine is sound, paying tithe but never offertory, in addition to questioning whether their tithe is payed to God or robbed from them... with some kindness we can help them find the truth.....
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  #89  
Old Jul 23, '12, 10:58 am
nordskoven nordskoven is offline
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Default Re: Was the church Jesus said he would build the Roman Catholic Church?What about the other churches?

A hallmark of leading by the Holy Spirit is unity, harmony. It suggests that all the differences are not stemming from the leading of the Holy Spirit.

EPHESIANS 4:1
New International Version (©1984)
Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace.
New Living Translation (©2007)
Make every effort to keep yourselves united in the Spirit, binding yourselves together with peace.
English Standard Version (©2001)
eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
being diligent to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. International Standard Version (©2008)
Do your best to maintain the unity of the Spirit by means of the bond of peace. Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
And to be diligent to keep the harmony of The Spirit in the bonds of peace,
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  #90  
Old Sep 21, '12, 2:02 pm
silent celt silent celt is offline
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Default Re: Was the church Jesus said he would build the Roman Catholic Church?What about the other churches?

History would say so.Their may have been a few sects but remember Jesus taught in two ways either by direct instruction or by the use of parabels in this saying he told Peter he would be the head of his church it is interesting that he did not say Church,s only Church.He also said what you declare bound on earth is bound in heaven what you declare loosed on earth is loosed in heaven taken together with his giving authority to Peter he clearly was showing how he wanted his Church to be structured.Now find a nother church which truely can be traced back to Peter
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