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  #16  
Old Oct 30, '10, 4:33 am
Petergee Petergee is offline
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Default Re: What order did Friar Tuck belong to?

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Originally Posted by CHRISTINE77 View Post
I actually heard that Friar Tuck may have been masquerading as a friar. He certainly wasn't very holy!
the traditional tales portray him bending the rules a little, but not doing anythiung "unholy"! (Disregard the absolutely awful recent film where he and Maid Marian are portrayed as anachronistic protestants.).
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  #17  
Old Oct 31, '10, 2:36 am
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Default Re: What order did Friar Tuck belong to?

Everything I've read said he was a Franciscan. Although from what I gather the order can change depending on who is telling the story.

I think one had him as a wondering Friar who's order had all but died out. He was the last. Also it should be noted Friar took was ordained a Priest as he could hear confession, perform weddings and celibrate mass
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  #18  
Old Nov 6, '10, 3:29 am
Petergee Petergee is offline
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Default Re: What order did Friar Tuck belong to?

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Originally Posted by cyberwolf001 View Post
it should be noted Friar took was ordained a Priest as he could hear confession, perform weddings and celibrate mass
The traditional tales (as opposed to modern inventions) do not portray him hearing confessions or saying Mass. They do portray him being the presiding celebrant at a wedding (without a Nuptial Mass), but you only have to be a Deacon to do that, and quite a few friars are and were deacons.
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  #19  
Old Nov 8, '10, 9:25 am
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CHRISTINE77 CHRISTINE77 is offline
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Default Re: What order did Friar Tuck belong to?

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Originally Posted by Petergee View Post
the traditional tales portray him bending the rules a little, but not doing anythiung "unholy"! (Disregard the absolutely awful recent film where he and Maid Marian are portrayed as anachronistic protestants.).
Here is a link to a site about Robin Hood:
http://www.boldoutlaw.com/realrob/realrob3.html

and a quote:
"Most Robin Hood stories these days are set in the era of Richard I. There were no friars in England back then. It doesn't help that the early ballads are set in later times, because Tuck's not in them either. But he does pop up as Frere Tuk in a relatively early fragment of Robin Hood drama, circa 1475, but he was not the fat, jolly friar we know today. Perhaps that's because this Tuck might have been inspired by a real person.

Twice in 1417, royal writs demand the arrest of an outlaw who led a band which robbed, murdered and committed other acts of general mayhem. One report says he "assumed the name of Frere Tuk newly so called in the common parlance." As Holt explains "the men who drafted the writs of 1417 had apparently never heard the name Friar Tuck before." A letter in 1429 says Tuck is still at large, and mentions his real identity -- Robert Stafford, chaplain of Lindfield, Sussex.

This chaplain may have employed an alias from a pre-existing legend, but it's quite possible that he was the first to use the name of Tuck."
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  #20  
Old Feb 19, '11, 12:16 am
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goforgoal goforgoal is offline
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Default Re: What order did Friar Tuck belong to?

Last night, I watched Robin and Marian (1976) and for some odd reason the ending of the movie made me feel really sad

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0075147/
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  #21  
Old Feb 25, '12, 5:51 am
174a 174a is offline
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Default Re: What order did Friar Tuck belong to?

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Originally Posted by CHRISTINE77 View Post
The oldest references to Robin Hood are not historical records, or even ballads recounting his exploits, but hints and allusions found in various works. From 1228, onwards the names 'Robinhood', 'Robehod' or 'Hobbehod' occur in the rolls of several English Justices. The majority of these references date from the late 13th century. Between 1261 and 1300, there are at least eight references to 'Rabunhod' in various regions across England, from Berkshire in the south to York in the north.[24]

The first allusion to a literary tradition of Robin Hood tales occurs in William Langland's Piers Plowman (c. 1362–c. 1386) in which Sloth, the lazy priest, confesses: "I kan [know] not parfitly [perfectly] my Paternoster as the preest it singeth,/ But I kan rymes of Robyn Hood."[26]

this is from Wikipedia. I say that since the tale was written when there were Fransican Friars, that Friar Tuck was a Franciscan, even though historically he couldn't have been.
Hi, I'm new here and I just happened to come across this thread. If I may explain about the Robin Hood name, I know the person who made the wiki entry, and if you notice they are all dated after 1224 which is when the first Friars arrived in England. As you will know the mendicant friars travelled the countryside preaching the Gospel just like Jesus Christ, and like Jesus they had nowhere to lay their head and of course their vow of poverty did not help in that direction either and again like their Lord they were dependent on the hospitality of others.

These friars unlike monks were often illiterate and so did not know their Paternoster and may only have recited the Lords Prayer or something similar. William Langland saw these men as being slothful and he was not well disposed towards them, we have to remember this is later in their history and William Langland died in 1400 after writing Piers Plowman in 1377 although there are several versions as he refined it over a period of years.

Thank you.

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  #22  
Old Feb 25, '12, 6:00 am
174a 174a is offline
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Default Re: What order did Friar Tuck belong to?

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Originally Posted by Dale_M View Post
Which gets to the question, when did Friar Tuck enter into the tales of Robin Hood? Presumably, like many legends, the tale grew with time, as new story tellers added new elements. As you suggest, by the time the story was actually written down, Franciscans existed and that may be how Friar Tuck was depicted.
Hi, if I may, Friar Tuck appears in an early fragment called “Robin Hood and the Sheriff” c. 1472. This was around the same time as the “Gest of Robin Hood.” Naturally there was a delay between Robin receiving the Freedom of the City of York in 1391 and the earliest printed copies of the rhymes.

Thanks.
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  #23  
Old Feb 25, '12, 9:15 am
174a 174a is offline
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Default Re: What order did Friar Tuck belong to?

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Originally Posted by Dale_M View Post
To add to the mystery, the earliest known instance of Friar Tuck in the Robin Hood tales comes in the ballad "Robin Hood and the Curtal Friar." In it, the friar lives in Fountains Abbey, which was Cistercian. And, of course, Cistercians are monks, not friars.

http://www.lib.rochester.edu/camelot/teams/curta.htm

The Cistercians were the first to make extensive use of lay brothers ‘conversi’ who lived in the abbey under a separate discipline of the Third Order of St. Francis who included regular and secular congregations both male and female tertiaries (mendicants).

The Order was founded by St. Francis himself to which lay and married men and women can belong and live according to the Gospel. Originally they aided the monks in their farm system but by 1400 when the Cistercian order had diminished in importance their place was taken by the Franciscan order of secular friars.
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  #24  
Old Feb 25, '12, 9:19 am
174a 174a is offline
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Default Re: What order did Friar Tuck belong to?

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Originally Posted by Petergee View Post
If he was a "lay" (i.e. unvowed) brother, he wouldn't have been called "Friar". He wouldn't have been a Grey Friar (Franciscan) or a Black Friar (Dominican) because these orders weren't founded until the 13th century, and Robin Hood is usually said to have flourished in the late 12th century or even earlier. He may have been (supposed to be) an Austin (Augustinian) Friar, which order was very numerous at the time in England and elsewhere.

The blame for Robin being placed in the wrong era can be laid fairly and squarely at the door of John Major (1467–1550) who was living in France and for no apparent reason moved the Robin Hood legend back in time to the reign of King Richard and King John despite there being no historical basis. Whatever the reason he wrote, “About this time it was, as I conceive, there flourished those most famous robbers Robert Hood, an Englishman, and Little John.” As a result “Major's dating of the legend was copied and repeated by others and by the time of Elizabeth I, Robin Hood was associated with King Richard I and his much-maligned brother John. (Allen W. Wright)

Barbara A. Buxton writes: – “The legal and royal records for the reigns of Richard I and King John are quite adequate to detail Robin’s offenses, but they do not. Neither is the name of the sheriff ever mentioned even though the names of sheriffs were recorded as far back as 1135. There were no friars in the England of King John, the first came to England in 1221.”

Leaving the last word to Professor Holt, “It (Major's conception) was not reinforced by argument, evidence or proof it was simply recycled through later versions of the tale and so became an integral part of the legend.” Neither is this view supported by the earliest ballads that name the reigning monarch as "Edward."

Unfortunately this rules out Nottingham’s claim to the legend who see Robin Hood as a supporter of the 12th-century king Richard Lionhearted who fought in the Third Crusade and, for the same reason, it also eliminates Robert Fitz Odo of Warwickshire who was living in the reigns of Henry II (died 1189) and Richard Lionhearted who died 1199.
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  #25  
Old Feb 25, '12, 9:23 am
174a 174a is offline
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Default Re: What order did Friar Tuck belong to?

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Originally Posted by Petergee View Post
the traditional tales portray him bending the rules a little, but not doing anythiung "unholy"! (Disregard the absolutely awful recent film where he and Maid Marian are portrayed as anachronistic protestants.).
The Gest begins with Robin preparing a meal to which travellers were invited to dine with him as his guest. This was in the manner of Saint Francis of Assisi who told his monks that when troubled by robbers they were to prepare a meal and invite them to dine: “Spread out a tablecloth on the ground, put the bread and wine on it, and serve them with humility and good humour.” Once the robbers were in a good mood, the monks were told to ask them a favour the first one of which was to harm no-one, then with each successive meal another favour was added and eventually the thieves discovered they were following the rules of the order of Saint Francis of Assisi.


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  #26  
Old Feb 25, '12, 9:25 am
174a 174a is offline
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Default Re: What order did Friar Tuck belong to?

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Originally Posted by Petergee View Post
The traditional tales (as opposed to modern inventions) do not portray him hearing confessions or saying Mass. They do portray him being the presiding celebrant at a wedding (without a Nuptial Mass), but you only have to be a Deacon to do that, and quite a few friars are and were deacons.
Friars first arrived in England in 1224 which is eight years after the death of King John. They were known as “preaching friars,” “brothers of St. Mary” or Black Friars, Grey Friars and White Friars depending on the colour of their habit that identified the order to which they belonged and when they first arrived in England they adhered to the same high ideals as St. Francis of Assisi and were well respected.

Friars the same as monks wore their habits long but Saint Francis of Assisi instructed his friars to wear them short thereby becoming known as Curtailed Friars which means to cut short. As preaching friars they travelled the countryside proclaiming the gospel much like Jesus and as wearing a habit or cassock was tricky when walking over rough ground or riding a horse so they pulled their habit between their legs and TUCKED it into their cincture (belt) at the back, hence the name “FRIAR TUCK” which gives us Friar Tuck the Curtal Friar.


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  #27  
Old Feb 25, '12, 9:35 am
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VivienneJ VivienneJ is offline
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Default Re: What order did Friar Tuck belong to?

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Originally Posted by 174a View Post
Hi, I'm new here and I just happened to come across this thread.
Welcome to CAF, but, the original thread is 2 years old, with an entry by the original poster this time last year!! Rather than re-opening such old threads, a new one is started.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 174a View Post
These friars unlike monks were often illiterate and so did not know their Paternoster and may only have recited the Lords Prayer or something similar.
Interesting information, however the Paternoster is the Lord's Prayer, Paternoster being the Latin of Our Father.
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  #28  
Old Feb 25, '12, 10:05 am
174a 174a is offline
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Default Re: What order did Friar Tuck belong to?

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Originally Posted by VivienneJ View Post
Welcome to CAF, but, the original thread is 2 years old, with an entry by the original poster this time last year!! Rather than re-opening such old threads, a new one is started.

Interesting information, however the Paternoster is the Lord's Prayer, Paternoster being the Latin of Our Father.
OK, I will bear it in mind, thanks.

Regarding the Paternoster the monks used to recite all 150 Psalms while the uneducated friars recited the Lords Prayer, this is why William Langland said regarding the slothful (lazy) priest : -

"I do not know my paternoster perfectly as the priest sings it. (150 Psalms)
But I know the rhymes of Robin Hood and Randolph, earl of Chester"."


"The Psalter of Christ
( Psalter of Christ / Paternoster / Prayer Rope / Celtic Rosary )

From the Apostolic Age of the early Church, the 150 Psalms of the Holy Bible were important in the liturgical prayers of the clergy and monastics. Literacy was not then common, so many of the faithful were unable to read the Psalms. Consequently, there arose alternatives for those who could not read substitutes for reading the 150 Psalms.

One practice which became very prevalent was that of praying 150 Pater Noster's (Our Fathers) instead of the Psalms, using a string of bones, or knots, or, later, beads, to count them. Usually, the 150 were divided into 3 groups of 50 each. The prayer rope came to be known as a "Psalter" and, later, as "Paternoster bedes."

The Western Orthodox Churches had a great devotion to the Psalter of David. They divided the Psalter into three sections of 50 Psalms each. The "3 fifties" were recited for the dead, and for many other intentions, by both monastics and laity. When a layman died, immediately the Psalter was said over the body of the faithful departed. People took turns reciting the Psalter four more times, all through the night. The Celtic Orthodox Saints, including St. Patrick, sometimes would recite the first "fifty" and then stand in cold water to recite the next "fifty" in order to stay awake and watchful."

http://roman-orthodox.tripod.com/devotions/psalter.html
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  #29  
Old Feb 29, '12, 10:18 pm
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Nec5 Nec5 is offline
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Default Re: What order did Friar Tuck belong to?

The order of Mead.
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  #30  
Old Mar 12, '12, 3:15 am
174a 174a is offline
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Default Re: What order did Friar Tuck belong to?

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The order of Mead.
I assume you are making a connection between the Merry Men and drunkenness?

In medieval England "Merry Men" meant "famous men."

http://www.bartleby.com/81/11340.html

..
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