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  #46  
Old Mar 3, '12, 6:40 pm
TheRealJuliane TheRealJuliane is offline
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Default Re: I really don't want a divorce, but I feel I have no choice..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oh Charlotte View Post
Its odd how you and Julianne are seeing only the depression of the husband (and ignoring what she said about him not taking the counseling or the Retrouvaille seriously or ANY of her concerns). Yes, the husband is so depressed he cannot (or WILL not) do a thing. He needs more professional care than she can give, it sounds to me. Professionals will know how to impose expectations on him, and it sounds like its needed!

But why do you disbelieve her when she says, "I am depressed, and can barely focus on my job"? If BOTH of them are handicapped with debilitating depression and cannot work, who is left to visit them in the hospital??

Natural consequences are part of the healing process. Withholding natural consequences is part of the co-dependent process and supports dysfunction...

Even a wheelchair-bound paraplegic has responsibilities and expectations as a family member...

She sounds at wits end to me - and somehow both you and Julianne don't see this. Sometimes caregivers need to stop caregiving and just take care of themselves. You can't get blood from a stone...

She can step aside while someone else caregives, and a counselor can give her perspective. Will he always need to be fed, clothed, and served? Will he never communicate as an adult? Will he ever see things from anyone's viewpoint but his own? Will life with him be fulltime caretaking, as for an infant - only, this one a big infant that will never grow up? Is this how she should spend her child-bearing years, caring for grown-up man who can only function as a child? And let her fertility lie barren -- because how could she care for children (who will grow up) and him (who won't)? I wonder if she guessed this would be her vocation when she married five years ago... Hmm... Maybe she should consult a priest to help her discern God's desire for her here...
I have told the OP every time that she needs the assistance of a priest, her husband's doctor, and a good financial adviser. I have not been "seeing only the depression of the husband," but you are not seeing it as any sort of explanation at all. He is SICK! I am not saying that he gets an endless pass but he has been diagnosed and is taking medication. I believe that they need counseling as a couple, but it won't take until his depression is responding to medication. I understand her frustration, believe me, I do. I would not want to live with myself in a depressive episode either. I curl up in a ball and either want to sleep and hide under the covers, or cry uncontrollably. I can't make the smallest of decisions, life is completely overwhelming, and everything seems dark and awful. And, along with that, I have panic attacks when any demand is placed on me. It SUCKS!

All I am saying is that her husband has been diagnosed with a mental illness. You are discounting that as being the source of his symptoms. Maybe it is, maybe it's not, but she still took vows with him and the Church does not take this lightly.
  #47  
Old Mar 3, '12, 6:44 pm
Oh Charlotte Oh Charlotte is offline
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Default Re: I really don't want a divorce, but I feel I have no choice..

As to losing great jobs, it reminds me of a friend; we were in each others weddings. Hmm, we shared co-dependently helpful personalities, too...

Her husband was on the executive track for a large corporation. He had the looks, the personality, the education - even the "pedigree" - his father had been an executive with the same corporation. They bought a fine home and remodeled it; a perfect size and a good neighborhood/schools, not far from either set of grandparents - perfect for raising their two children, who came quickly...

But right after, he grew unhappy and quit. No more executive track for him, he decided, he wanted to realize his dreams, and my dear friend wanted to be a good wife and help him do that, no matter the cost to her. He wanted to start his own auto-repair business! So they put the kids in day care and she returned to work and he stayed home to putter with cars and plan for the big dream. Oh, they had to sell the house so he could do the dream-work, and they bought a tiny, cramped one instead.

After awhile it got to be too much and he went back to the company, in a reduced position. This time further northeast. He quit, tried the same business start-up there, then gave it again -- and the company took him on again! Wow.

This time he was sent out west. He did that for awhile, and guess what - he quit again! Good thing my friend kept finding work as a teacher. Good thing she had the energy to coordinate all these moves and manage the child care for her active kids. She wanted to be a helpful wife and help him achieve his dreams! Become the person he really wanted to be!

But THIS time, he wanted to join an area commune. It would be like this, he said. They would give everything they owned to the commune, all their saving,s all their belongings, their house and cars, and they would all live there together. He would be the fix-it man and she could cook in the kitchen!

This time, she just couldn't see following her husband, uprooting the kids, now happy adjusted to the new school, activities and neighborhood friends, once again. She got counsel and came to him with, "If you do this, you are doing it without me this time".

That frightened him enough to go to counseling. They found out, after all those years and previous counselors, that he was not just depressive - but manic-depressive! As in, Schizophrenia! He had to go on drugs to regulate it. The agreement now was, she would stay, if he stayed on drugs. And she joined a support group for spouses of bi-polar.

But a typical problem developed. Bi-polars miss the manic, and stop taking the drugs. So he stopped, went manic, and in the manic found someone who adored and admired Manic-him, someone he just had to change his life for! Someone who did not insist he take pills! And the admiration/infatuation of new-love was a drug to Manic-man, and he was willing to leave the most giving wife in the world and his two kids for the manic-lover...

So in the end, after completely spending herself on him, she was on her own supporting them all, anyway. And pretty darned tired from the effort...

Just saying. This happens...

So, that you husband was able to keep really great jobs for a time before he lost them? Not so impressive to me...
  #48  
Old Mar 3, '12, 6:52 pm
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Khalid Khalid is offline
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Default Re: I really don't want a divorce, but I feel I have no choice..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oh Charlotte View Post
so depressed he cannot (or WILL not)
And that is your problem. Read the literature, but you won't be convinced, no more than a Bedouin of 1500 years ago would believe epilepsy was a disease and not a divine curse. Do you want links, to read, and educate yourself? If not, speak no more ill-informed nonsense, sneering, as you are, through your screen, "idiot, of course he's capable... he just doesn't will it, because he's got a fake disease for an excuse".

And in case you find that offensive, I shall demonstrate it again and amply with fact.

Quote:
but manic-depressive! As in, Schizophrenia! He had to go on drugs to regulate it.
Manic-depression has nothing in common with schizophrenia. Different diseases. Do you realize the tone, "he had to go on drugs to regulate it", at the same time conspires to deny that it's a real condition, and to in some way de-legitimize the drugs by sneering the words through the keyboard - at least that's how it reads - as if you were saying, "oh my God, he had to go on cocaine!" If there is one thing, as a recovering addict, I have learned of American slang, people do not use "drug" in the dictionary definition. For that definition, they say "medicine" or "medication" or "prescription". When "drug" is said, "narcotic" (in the widened legal sense, not the sense of "opioid" or "soporific", lest I open myself up to counter-attack as equally ignorant of these matters) is implied, along with criminality.

People who are manic don't "miss the manic". Mania is worse than the depression. Imagine a cocaine overdose, or a massive caffeine overdose. You're getting in the right ball-park.

Maybe with my own experience in the twelve-steps and neurologists, I realize that without God and the doctors he has worked through, I would be far less functional than the OP's husband (just not for depression). Due to those doctors and God, I am (although I am not allowed to drive, which reduces my ability to do much of anything other than program computers from home).

I would have more sympathy with the OP if her husband was spending all of his money on frivolous expenses, a mistress, or gambling it away. Adultery, materialism, and gambling aren't diseases - they are weaknesses or flaws - sins (gambling only when taken to an extreme) - that, consciously or not, you are equating depression with.
__________________
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Above all things Truth beareth away the victory: ... great is Truth, mighty above all things. - III Esdras 3:12,4:41

Last edited by Khalid; Mar 3, '12 at 7:10 pm.
  #49  
Old Mar 3, '12, 7:01 pm
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ryecroft ryecroft is offline
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Default Re: I really don't want a divorce, but I feel I have no choice..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rence View Post
The above is not just a matter of finances, she is on the brink of bankruptcy and *WILL* end up homeless if she continues in this way. She is already paying for their current living expenses, AND *HIS* previous credit card debts. They're going after her because she is married to him. If she doesn't separate herself financially from him, and start building a savings account, she will be in a very bad place, which she can't do if she's supporting both of them. You can't help people who do not want help. I hope she saw her divorce lawyer when she said she was going to. The lawyer might be able to suggest ways she can help herself out of this mess.
I completely agree - she has GOT to get some stuff in HER name and HER name only, that way if/when there is a divorce she has something - also, I would look into the law - there are some states that say what you had in your name prior to marriage is yours - I know this usually deals with positives and not debts, but I would look into it (not sure what state you're in)- I would also consider if you're parents are still around letting them know what's going on and have them open an account that you have access to that your husband does not. You've said almost everything is in his name - it's time for your paychecks to go to your account that he can't get to. I would see if there was a way to cancel the credit cards - usually it has to do with calling up or writting a letter. If not he may max out all of the cards if he hasn't already. And this way the interest rate should stay the same.
God Bless
Rye
  #50  
Old Mar 3, '12, 7:03 pm
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Khalid Khalid is offline
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Default Re: I really don't want a divorce, but I feel I have no choice..

Quote:
Originally Posted by ryecroft View Post
I completely agree - she has GOT to get some stuff in HER name and HER name only, that way if/when there is a divorce she has something - also, I would look into the law - there are some states that say what you had in your name prior to marriage is yours - I know this usually deals with positives and not debts, but I would look into it (not sure what state you're in)- I would also consider if you're parents are still around letting them know what's going on and have them open an account that you have access to that your husband does not. You've said almost everything is in his name - it's time for your paychecks to go to your account that he can't get to. I would see if there was a way to cancel the credit cards - usually it has to do with calling up or writting a letter. If not he may max out all of the cards if he hasn't already. And this way the interest rate should stay the same.
God Bless
Rye
I agree with that completely. It was in my original post, that I thought it was wise to divest jointly-owned accounts. I didn't catch that everything was in his name: no wonder she's going broke. That seems like a most obvious first step to take, and why I said - paying lip-service to counseling or no - that most options hadn't been considered, let alone exhausted.

I echo the above poster as well, that the depression needs to be treated before any sort of therapy has a chance of working. You can't spend $500 on a therapist, see him for a month, and then say, "we've done marriage therapy". (Apologies if that was not the actual subtext, as it can be hard to read in writing, as opposed to hearing in speaking.)

Edit: I also apologize for any uncharity in my last posts and recuse myself from this thread, as it is a personal area where emotions and ignorance both run high, on my part as well, and I can no longer pretend to maintain even a sheen of objectivity.
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Above all things Truth beareth away the victory: ... great is Truth, mighty above all things. - III Esdras 3:12,4:41

Last edited by Khalid; Mar 3, '12 at 7:15 pm.
  #51  
Old Mar 3, '12, 7:24 pm
Oh Charlotte Oh Charlotte is offline
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Default Re: I really don't want a divorce, but I feel I have no choice..

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRealJuliane View Post
I have told the OP every time that she needs the assistance of a priest, her husband's doctor, and a good financial adviser. I have not been "seeing only the depression of the husband," but you are not seeing it as any sort of explanation at all. He is SICK! I am not saying that he gets an endless pass but he has been diagnosed and is taking medication. I believe that they need counseling as a couple, but it won't take until his depression is responding to medication. I understand her frustration, believe me, I do. I would not want to live with myself in a depressive episode either. I curl up in a ball and either want to sleep and hide under the covers, or cry uncontrollably. I can't make the smallest of decisions, life is completely overwhelming, and everything seems dark and awful. And, along with that, I have panic attacks when any demand is placed on me. It SUCKS!

All I am saying is that her husband has been diagnosed with a mental illness. You are discounting that as being the source of his symptoms. Maybe it is, maybe it's not, but she still took vows with him and the Church does not take this lightly.
Julianne, I am just taking a different view of this from you, based on my experience, just as your take is based on yours. Neither of us can really know. I really think a priest and Popcak will give her the direction she needs..

Our own experience colors us. I have the marraige experience I mentioned, and as if co-dependently helping and submerging my life in anotehr wasn't enough for the duration of a long marraige, I did it again recently with a freind who has severe PTSD. I want to tell you about it. There is a point in my telling you, you will see.

She was also a single Mom, and because of her PTSD it was okay by me to do all the giving, letting her complex needs and problems and psychology take over my life for three years. Our sons were friends, but her PTSD rubbed of on me and I added stress to my son's life by taking on the type of worrying she did. Other than some tokens by her, it was all me doing the giving. It was mind-bending to entwine my life with hers, becasue her PTSD was of the very deepest kind.

In the fall I found a ministry effective with her deepest kind of PTSD, and I helped her through about half of the prep before she bailed and clung instead to her Mormon religion's Masonic rites - and landed in the hospital after hurting herself. I felt a wake-up call from God. My co-dependent relationshiup was not helping her. The help would be there when she was ready, but for now, my soothing her difficutlites was not goign to help her choose to solve them. It was the first time I ever dropped a person in my life, but God clearly showed me I needed to do this, so I did, and it was hard, but I felt the peace of accomplishing God's will.

Before this, she , with her hawk-eyed vigilance, said I had PTSD, too. I said, sure, I probably do, from my long bad marraige, but I am coping fine, nothing like you. And that was obvious. One day i was praising Jesus because through this minsitry of His, He was finally going to heal her! I would witness a miracle! Because of His love for her! I was so happy! He is so good! Then I was surprised to hear Him quietly say to me, in a clear, calm, loving, non-audible inner voice: "I love you, too. Don't you want to be whole?" I was floored. I realized it was true; I wasn't whole. I felt His love, and His desire to heal me, too. So I called the ministry: "Do you help just regular PTSD, not only the really, really bad kind?" Yes, they did.

So shortly later, when my freind bailed, I decided, since I had made all the arrangements for her, (the long drive, the place to stay, the appointements, the care for our boys, care for my mother) that I would go on my own. And Jesus healed me. That was October. I became that day a new and very whole and healed person, and I have been that new person since that hour.

So, I see your PTSD, Julianne. And the depression you speak of. And I say, Jesus is alive and well and He heals hearts. The ministry I went to was a minister near me in the northeast - they have them all over - who was connected with this ministry: http://www.freedomencounters.com/ I reccommend it! You will be healed. There are ten DVDs of learning prep, so your calm 4 hour deliverance ministry (one-on-one with counselor) holds no surpises. It is Protestant, but having been one, I was comfortable, and made one or two small corrections in prayers to make me comfortable. I can tell you, I am completely healed of trauma from how I grew up, and what I went through in marriage. I feel clean and new. And free. I have immediately been able to do things I could never do before. So many things! It seems that every single thing in my life is different. People I know tend to stare and watch me, see whats different, is it clothes, weight, excercise? They wonder. Its not that really, its just a new me completely. I was healed. And that is what God intends for you. Either through the ministry I can recommend because I went through it, or through another one - because Jesus' work is everywhere - and He wants to make your heart and mind whole. It is not His will that you remain broken and damaged. We live in a world that needs Evangelization and needs Jesus badly. You will be better able to bring Him to people if you are whole.

He wants to make you whole!
  #52  
Old Mar 3, '12, 7:39 pm
TheRealJuliane TheRealJuliane is offline
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Default Re: I really don't want a divorce, but I feel I have no choice..

Wow. I really don't know what to say to that. I'm sure glad that you have been healed!



I'll take a look at that website. I'd probably be happier if they were Catholics, but I'll give it a look.
  #53  
Old Mar 3, '12, 7:57 pm
Oh Charlotte Oh Charlotte is offline
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Default Re: I really don't want a divorce, but I feel I have no choice..

Khalid, I am really not sneering! Honestly, I don't ever do that! I emphized that it may be he WILL not - becasue that is a fact. He may not be a complete victim - its real possible that he is a person with a will, and is exercising it, because he CAN.

Some people with mental illness are not capable of keeping their vows. They are not capable of offering loving support to a spouse. The OP's spouse is ignoring all of her concerns. It is like she is talking to a brick wall. Its possible he sort of is a brick wall, a person not capable of seeing life from any view but his own. I am only pointing out that possibility. Only an expert can say for sure.

You misread my tone on the drugs. I could not tell every detail, I said drugs because it is shorter than "perscritption meds". My friend explained they MUST take them daily, it evens out the highs and lows but feels a bit blah for someone who has enjoyed their highs. He did. And he had her to expertly carry him and the family later when he hit the lows. It worked fine for him, but her back was breaking.

Yes, so he looked forward to those times he felt he could be anyone and do anything. Apparently, you are saying not everyone likes manic. I am not a psychologist, I don't know. I only know what my friend told me about her husband. My friend told me that often-times those like her husband do miss the manic. Hers did. He eventually quit the daily meds so he could have manic back...

Being married to a person with this degree of mental instability is very taxing. My friend could do it because she has more energy than almost anybody and she put all that energy into carrying her husband. Being married to someone like this and being their full-time caregiver is trauma-inducing because it is so far outside of normal.

Yet my friend was willing to do what she could to keep the marriage intact, even with this solid prognosis to explain the previous years exhausting craziness. But it had taken its toll, and she knew her limit was reached, and she could not possibly live with and carry him through any more manic-depressive episodes. She was completely spent on that, psychologically, mentally and emotionally just not able to support it, the income and the kids ANY MORE though it. So the new agreement, made with experts advice was: stay on meds, and stay even, and she would be able to stay. But he could not keep the agreement. He loved manic more than marriage...
  #54  
Old Mar 3, '12, 8:13 pm
TheRealJuliane TheRealJuliane is offline
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Default Re: I really don't want a divorce, but I feel I have no choice..

Your friend is unfortunately right about people with bipolar depression/mania. I have read and heard from psychiatrists who say that bipolars are very hard to treat and that they also frequently suicide because the high and the low are just so intense. They tend to identify their true selves with the mania, and feel that life on meds is colorless and boring.
  #55  
Old Mar 3, '12, 8:48 pm
mamaslo mamaslo is offline
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Default Re: I really don't want a divorce, but I feel I have no choice..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oh Charlotte View Post
Julianne, I am just taking a different view of this from you, based on my experience, just as your take is based on yours. Neither of us can really know. I really think a priest and Popcak will give her the direction she needs..

Our own experience colors us. I have the marraige experience I mentioned, and as if co-dependently helping and submerging my life in anotehr wasn't enough for the duration of a long marraige, I did it again recently with a freind who has severe PTSD. I want to tell you about it. There is a point in my telling you, you will see.

She was also a single Mom, and because of her PTSD it was okay by me to do all the giving, letting her complex needs and problems and psychology take over my life for three years. Our sons were friends, but her PTSD rubbed of on me and I added stress to my son's life by taking on the type of worrying she did. Other than some tokens by her, it was all me doing the giving. It was mind-bending to entwine my life with hers, becasue her PTSD was of the very deepest kind.

In the fall I found a ministry effective with her deepest kind of PTSD, and I helped her through about half of the prep before she bailed and clung instead to her Mormon religion's Masonic rites - and landed in the hospital after hurting herself. I felt a wake-up call from God. My co-dependent relationshiup was not helping her. The help would be there when she was ready, but for now, my soothing her difficutlites was not goign to help her choose to solve them. It was the first time I ever dropped a person in my life, but God clearly showed me I needed to do this, so I did, and it was hard, but I felt the peace of accomplishing God's will.

Before this, she , with her hawk-eyed vigilance, said I had PTSD, too. I said, sure, I probably do, from my long bad marraige, but I am coping fine, nothing like you. And that was obvious. One day i was praising Jesus because through this minsitry of His, He was finally going to heal her! I would witness a miracle! Because of His love for her! I was so happy! He is so good! Then I was surprised to hear Him quietly say to me, in a clear, calm, loving, non-audible inner voice: "I love you, too. Don't you want to be whole?" I was floored. I realized it was true; I wasn't whole. I felt His love, and His desire to heal me, too. So I called the ministry: "Do you help just regular PTSD, not only the really, really bad kind?" Yes, they did.

So shortly later, when my freind bailed, I decided, since I had made all the arrangements for her, (the long drive, the place to stay, the appointements, the care for our boys, care for my mother) that I would go on my own. And Jesus healed me. That was October. I became that day a new and very whole and healed person, and I have been that new person since that hour.

So, I see your PTSD, Julianne. And the depression you speak of. And I say, Jesus is alive and well and He heals hearts. The ministry I went to was a minister near me in the northeast - they have them all over - who was connected with this ministry: http://www.freedomencounters.com/ I reccommend it! You will be healed. There are ten DVDs of learning prep, so your calm 4 hour deliverance ministry (one-on-one with counselor) holds no surpises. It is Protestant, but having been one, I was comfortable, and made one or two small corrections in prayers to make me comfortable. I can tell you, I am completely healed of trauma from how I grew up, and what I went through in marriage. I feel clean and new. And free. I have immediately been able to do things I could never do before. So many things! It seems that every single thing in my life is different. People I know tend to stare and watch me, see whats different, is it clothes, weight, excercise? They wonder. Its not that really, its just a new me completely. I was healed. And that is what God intends for you. Either through the ministry I can recommend because I went through it, or through another one - because Jesus' work is everywhere - and He wants to make your heart and mind whole. It is not His will that you remain broken and damaged. We live in a world that needs Evangelization and needs Jesus badly. You will be better able to bring Him to people if you are whole.

He wants to make you whole!
Diabetics need insulin, seratonin issues require meds too. Why would you expect that mental illness is any different than some other physical illness...it is. That is not that God cannot heal you if he chooses. If you ask...and who wouldn't ask? But balance would be much better. Pray for healing and accept the care of a doctor at the same time. No amount of talking is going to heal my depression...it helps relieve it, you need to be cautious.
  #56  
Old Mar 3, '12, 9:59 pm
Oh Charlotte Oh Charlotte is offline
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Default Re: I really don't want a divorce, but I feel I have no choice..

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRealJuliane View Post
Wow. I really don't know what to say to that. I'm sure glad that you have been healed!



I'll take a look at that website. I'd probably be happier if they were Catholics, but I'll give it a look.
Yes, its Protestant. This ministry is effective with applying the healing of Jesus Christ to the most severe PTSD cases as well as the resulting sometimes 1000s of multiple personalities that can result from severest PTSD. Its why I chose this ministry - because my friend suffers from such extreme severe problems. I didn't know they dealt with just "regular-level" PTSD, that a major percentage of us have, maybe most, or issues that we all can have in this world full of sin, so I did not seek this out for myself. I asked for myself only after I heard the prompting from the Lord. So I ended up going through much of what my friend would gone through (hers in a more intense way, with some extra help/assistance for her paranoias).

I cannot tell you how much I have changed. There is very very little anxiety in my life. I feel peace almost of the time. I certain feel peace in almost all activities of my day, peace in things I never felt peace in. I seek aloneness now, so that I can have that peace that I so often have when alone. I rarely watch TV now (I do spend too much time onthe ocmputer though!). I didn't decide to, I just don't watch it. I can choose and practice disciplines. I could never stick to a diet before. I can now do any diet i want. I have been on several since October; just for the fun of it. For the first two months I ate only veggies, just because I could. I tried all kinds of new recipes. Right now its no carbs at all, Dr.of Naturapath supervised, to solve another problem, and for the first time in 7 years I have a normal heart rate (resting is 60 now instead of the 120 it was for 7 years or more). Also, I can listen to music other than hymns. The minister told me that my whole life had been fear and control. I did not think control; my ex was controlling, I was accomodating. But she meant because fear ruled my life; I arranged or "controlled" my life to avoid the things I was afraid of. One thing, apparently, was music. I think my Evangelical warnings about music content made me afraid to ever listen to music. Everything was suspect. Now I can listen to the radio for the first time in my life: I am not afraid, and i enjoy seeing the world, and seeing that here, there and everywhere, there is good in it. Yes, the world is actually not all bad! I can hardly go on describing the things that changed. I just have a new outlook in nearly every way. I really value my alone time now more than ever. I am still discovering the newness I think. So much of the old me is just gone. I tell people I know that I was healed and am now changed but I do not expect them to see this giant spirtual reality. However, I often find them watching me, wondering...

This particular ministry is a result of the Thornbergs, committed Christians, who felt the call to bring the healing of Jesus Christ to others in a ministry of helaing, and followed God's leading to do this, and over time and much, much prayer received particular guidance in this ministry, which included some breakthroughs of spiritual understanding for tough cases. It is all spiritual/Biblical principles, and all based on the healing of Christ.

But Jesus works also through many, many other healing/deliverance ministries and individuals, so if for some reason something makes you feel uncomfortable with this, there is no reason why you cannot prayerfully search and find a ministry that does feel right to you.

I do not believe God wants us to suffer these disorders of spiritual and heart brokenness. Sometimes that can be what the depression is. Yes, there are chemical imbalances to depression; but that does not mean that ALL depression is simply that.

So I just want to remind all those who suffer brokenness of any kind, including clinical depression, that there is hope in Jesus for complete healing. I urge you to ask him for healing. Ask with openness and trust. Keep asking. You may hear Him tell you that yes, He does in fact want to heal you. I cannot help but believe that those of you who suffer much more than I did He must certainly want to heal even more than He wanted to heal me.

Just remember, you will be better able to serve God, and to serve the people He has in your life, if you are healed!
  #57  
Old Mar 3, '12, 11:01 pm
In Spiration In Spiration is offline
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Default Re: I really don't want a divorce, but I feel I have no choice..

She knows what she has to do; she simply doesn't want to do it.

Her high romantic expectations have been tragically disappointed while she realizes that her choice in a man may likely end up turning out worse than she could reasonably have foreseen. So, like anyone in the midst of an overbearing crisis, she reverts to a mode of self-preservation.

This is when her inclination toward self-deception and self-affirming rationalization is the highest. It's human nature. Hence it is frequently the responsibility of a supportive community to step in during her time of weakness and encourage her in doing the right thing (be careful to never omit the italicized element here). To the wise (as opposed to the curiously over-trusting), this entails assessing the facts of the situation with a certain degree of skepticism in light of probable bias.

Instead she receives the sentimental public lynching of Reason that she badly craved all along, as promising members of Team Woman predictably jump on the case and begin discussing possible loopholes and wiggle-room for the poor, injured victim of an oppressive spousal abuser. You see, she would in fact be wrong not to act selfishly at such a time! Otherwise, this man will destroy her, just as that one woman's friend's husband did that one time, after foolishly trying to remain faithful and fatally paying the price. Lesson: don't be a sucker; it's every woman for herself out there, dammit. Oh, and technically the Church says it's all good, because this is purely a temporary financial thing, or else a lifetime of celibacy (both of which the OP has said she would stick to... Oh wait...)

And of course the only ones deserving rebuke are the principled voices which clarify those particularly harsh truths that none of us would ever want to face ourselves -- because, lacking compassion, they basically just don't understand (i.e., can't sympathize). You see, they need to question whether they'd be able to live up to these tough standards themselves, so that they might better find excuses for their potentially hypocritical, weak hypothetical selves.

Anyway, in sum, the community not only fails to uphold virtue; it very likely enables vice. It rushes into a warm and comforting embrace of failure, further discouraging those behind the necessary attempts at tough love to keep quietly absorbing the frustrating losses of whatever hopes they sustain of a higher goodness. Meanwhile, it begins to dawn on isolated sinners that these concerted festivals of naive, plausibly-deniable pseudo-justification are way more effective than any solo effort. And the despair spreads.

To those who don't implicitly value Feminist Choice over Catholic Matrimony by exerting all their mental efforts in favor of proving how a given current case is the unique exception to what's normally a sin, consider:
Quote:
Originally Posted by National Survey of Families and Households
Many currently happily married spouses have had extended periods of marital unhappiness, often for quite serious reasons, including alcoholism, infidelity, verbal abuse, emotional neglect, depression, illness, and work reversals. Why did these marriages survive where other marriages did not? The marital endurance ethic appears to play a big role. Many spouses said that their marriages got happier, not because they and their partner resolved problems but because they stubbornly outlasted them. With time, they told us, many sources of conflict and distress eased. Spouses in this group also generally had a low opinion of the benefits of divorce, as well as friends and family members who supported the importance of staying married.
The conclusion of that research?

Quote:
While these averages likely conceal important individual variations that require more research, in a careful analysis of nationally representative data with extensive measures of psychological well-being, we could find no evidence that divorce or separation typically made adults happier than staying in an unhappy marriage. Two out of three unhappily married adults who avoided divorce reported being happily married five years later.
But God forbid women feel any guilt over their empowering initiation of divorce through convinced-martyrdom, I guess. I'm sure the fact a woman initiates the awful split 2 out of 3 times is just proof of how men need to do more to step up and stop failing to fulfill their selfless, loyal, loving wives. We can just write this off to the Church, the future civilization, and the marriage/divorce rates. I just wonder what will happen when men en masse avoid marriage like the plague due to their fear of the weaseling whims of a once-scorned Woman? ("Where have all the good men gone?!")

Before the reprimands, keep in mind I'm not necessarily indicting any person in particular in this post. Actually this encapsulates a depressing trend I've noticed in many threads calling for recently-disliked Catholicism. (The true motives of the compassionate culprits are always quite transparent.)
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  #58  
Old Mar 4, '12, 6:14 am
Oh Charlotte Oh Charlotte is offline
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Default Re: I really don't want a divorce, but I feel I have no choice..

So there you go, Cindee, either you ignore your exhaustion and keep on keeping on the very things you now are doing that have sapped you, or, the only other way is to you go the way of rabid feminists like me, according to the last poster thats what I am, and speak to your priest or a counselors from a reputable orthodox Catholic counseling service who may deem, as my srict, orthodox priest did for me, that you don't have a marriage, and your husband is not capable of keeping his vows. And you will get called names of things you are not, and you will be harshly judged, as you can see In Spiration just did to me...

Because divorce is a stigma/ even when you could have, like me, said "I did not want this! I would have stuck it out to the end!" Still, in the end, you have the label divorcee and human nature says that you will be judged, and harshly, by some. You cannot avoid those who misunderstand their Catholic faith. People have their own issues, and in defense of that will find it easy to misjudge YOU.

But remember that Jesus also was judged harshly...
  #59  
Old Mar 4, '12, 6:33 am
EvelynEVF EvelynEVF is offline
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Default Re: I really don't want a divorce, but I feel I have no choice..

If this thread were about a woman who was simply unhappy in her marriage, I would agree with much of what you said.

Unfortunately, these days the only way to legally protect oneself from a spouse cleaning out the bank account and maxing out the credit cards, is either legal separation or divorce.

The day I found out my ex had very underhandedly done this to me, I signed divorce papers. One of his friends came to me and asked if I would tear up the papers if he could get ex to promise not to do that again. Seriously? The way he pulled it meant that everything happened a good two weeks before I had notice. If you couldn't stop it before, why would I risk my children and my home on the chance you could stop it later?

Civil divorce is just a piece of paper to the Church. it can be a wise tool for protection, and it is pretty easy to undo.
  #60  
Old Mar 4, '12, 8:48 am
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Exclamation Re: I really don't want a divorce, but I feel I have no choice..

Thread closed pending mod review.
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