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  #61  
Old Mar 2, '12, 11:41 pm
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Vico Vico is offline
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Default Re: How can radio waves continue to travel for ever in outer space?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbachler View Post
...
You wrote: “EMR is NOT the same as EMF.”

I did not say there were.

You wrote: “Virtual photons are not visible.”

I did not say they were.

You wrote: “And no, one does not "feel" the field of the other.”

I referred to two charged particles, there is an electrostatic force there.

You wrote: “Virtual photons do not propagate light. This is an incorrect statement.”

There is no statement there saying that virtual photons propagate light, rather I referred to the model of the propagation of light which utilizes virtual photons in that model.

You wrote: “Consider, for example, beta radiation, a form of EMR…”

You can call it EMR because of wave particle duality. The usual categories are electromagnetic radiation and particle radiation. Beta radiation is classed as particle radiation, as are alpha and neutron.

http://www.sprawls.org/ppmi2/ERAD/2ERAD03.gif

You wrote: “Virtual photons have to do with EMF, not EMR.” True that VPs have to do with EMF, yet EMF has to do with EMR, so there is involvement in that way.

“In quantum electrodynamics all electromagnetic fields are associated with photons, and the interaction between the charged particles occurs when one charged particle emits a virtual photon that is then absorbed by another charged particle. The photon has to be a virtual photon, because emission of a real photon would violate energy and momentum conservation.” - University of TN, Physics 250 online course. (This is the same source as the Standard Model picture.)
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  #62  
Old Mar 3, '12, 5:32 am
kbachler kbachler is offline
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Default Re: How can radio waves continue to travel for ever in outer space?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vico View Post
You wrote: “EMR is NOT the same as EMF.”

I did not say there were.
At one point you did through implication, yes.

EMR is a distinct subset of EMF.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vico View Post
You wrote: “Virtual photons are not visible.”

I did not say they were.
At one point you did, yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vico View Post
You wrote: “And no, one does not "feel" the field of the other.”

I referred to two charged particles, there is an electrostatic force there.
My statement was a quote of your misstatement. The context was clear. Your statement above changes nothing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vico View Post
You wrote: “Virtual photons do not propagate light. This is an incorrect statement.”

There is no statement there saying that virtual photons propagate light, rather I referred to the model of the propagation of light which utilizes virtual photons in that model.
As you continue to read and quote from others, yes, your statements change and you get closer to the truth. But you imply that light only propagates along an EMF. That's a mis-statement. EMF is not an "ether".

In fact, try this Vico - provide a lay statement that describes the relationship between EMR, EMF and "i".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vico View Post
You wrote: “Consider, for example, beta radiation, a form of EMR…”

You can call it EMR because of wave particle duality. The usual categories are electromagnetic radiation and particle radiation. Beta radiation is classed as particle radiation, as are alpha and neutron.
LOL. Caught. No, you can't call it EMR. My statement was a red-herring to see if you knew what you are talking about. Generally there is ionizing radiation and non-ionizing EMR. So you looked up what it was, and then to cover your tracks talk about wave/particle duality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vico View Post

http://www.sprawls.org/ppmi2/ERAD/2ERAD03.gif

You wrote: “Virtual photons have to do with EMF, not EMR.” True that VPs have to do with EMF, yet EMF has to do with EMR, so there is involvement in that way.
But they do not propagate light. Your statement is like saying that the assumed gridlines in a Cartesian plan CAUSE the hyperbolic function we see in the graph.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vico View Post
“In quantum electrodynamics all electromagnetic fields are associated with photons,
and the interaction between the charged particles occurs when one charged particle emits a virtual photon that is then absorbed by another charged particle. The photon has to be a virtual photon, because emission of a real photon would violate energy and momentum conservation.” - University of TN, Physics 250 online course. (This is the same source as the Standard Model picture.)
Yes, now if you thought about what that said, you'd realize that what you are trying to insist is gibberish. You're EQUATING photons and virtual photons. That's like equating a horse, and a unicorn.
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  #63  
Old Mar 3, '12, 9:46 am
hazcompat hazcompat is offline
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Default Re: How can radio waves continue to travel for ever in outer space?

provide a lay statement that describes the relationship between EMR, EMF and "i".

I know this is for vico, but how about this. EMR is the transfer (movement) of energy in the form of particles and waves. An EMF is generated by this motion. There is no lay description of "i" as it is a mathematical construct.


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  #64  
Old Mar 3, '12, 1:26 pm
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Vico Vico is offline
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Default Re: How can radio waves continue to travel for ever in outer space?

I am explaining to you what I mean, and there was no intention to imply that EMR was the same as EMF on my part. Besides never saying it, there was also no intention to imply, that virtual photons were visible.

When I wrote "You can call it EMR because of wave particle duality. The usual categories are..." I thought that you were mixing categories.

A wave formula can also be used for the beta.

Some ionizing radiation is electromagnetic (e.g., gamma and x-ray).

You wrote: "You're EQUATING photons and virtual photons."
I deny that, and have not said it. What I said in post 39 was: "Light can be thought of as an entity with each line of force heavily populated with real photons."

You may be interested in the results from a new experiment at MIT, where a rapidly spinning mirror prises virtual photons apart so that instead of annihilating, the particles are free to remain as real photons. http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/47856
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  #65  
Old Mar 3, '12, 8:51 pm
rvturietta rvturietta is offline
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Default Re: How can radio waves continue to travel for ever in outer space?

Vico,

I am sorry I misinterpreted what you said. I thought you were saying that virtual photons are radio waves, my bad. But, one thing you said does not seem right to me, you said something about the model of propagation of light using virtual photons, but the propagation of light has nothing to do with virtual photons as far as I know. Virtual photons are a mathematical construct used in quantum field theory to explain energy and momentum exchange for interactions. They are the force carriers in an EM field, but only as a mathematical construct. There have been recent experiments in which virtual photons were 'turned into" real photons, but this still has nothing to do with the propagation of light, it has to do with a prediction of QM that a vacuum may be thought of as a sea of particles and anti-particles. I have never heard of a model of propagation of light that utilizes virtual photons, but if you know of one, enlighten me, I do know that lots of research is being done in the field. My understanding of how light propagates is based on what I learned in modern physics in college, a course that introduced me to quantum mechanics and in which we solved Schroedinger's equation for various situations. Now, I only have a Bachelor's in Physics, not a PhD., so I am sure I don't fully understand Quantum Mechanics, but I always enjoy a good discussion! Also, let's not forget that this forum is not a physics forum, but a Catholic Answers Forum, and the point of our discussions here is to think about how God may be involved in all of this science stuff! For heavy duty Physics we probably should join a Physics Forum, where true PhD. experts may actually hang out and help us with our questions. Now, if you have a PhD., my apologies to you for not giving you credit where credit is due, but if you don't, well, welcome to the club and maybe we can both benefit from each other's knowledge and experience! Ciao for now, and remember, the ultimate physicist is God! (in my humble opinion!)
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  #66  
Old Mar 4, '12, 10:25 pm
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Vico Vico is offline
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Default Re: How can radio waves continue to travel for ever in outer space?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rvturietta View Post
Vico,

I am sorry I misinterpreted what you said. I thought you were saying that virtual photons are radio waves, my bad. But, one thing you said does not seem right to me, you said something about the model of propagation of light using virtual photons, but the propagation of light has nothing to do with virtual photons as far as I know. Virtual photons are a mathematical construct used in quantum field theory to explain energy and momentum exchange for interactions. They are the force carriers in an EM field, but only as a mathematical construct. There have been recent experiments in which virtual photons were 'turned into" real photons, but this still has nothing to do with the propagation of light, it has to do with a prediction of QM that a vacuum may be thought of as a sea of particles and anti-particles. I have never heard of a model of propagation of light that utilizes virtual photons, but if you know of one, enlighten me, I do know that lots of research is being done in the field. My understanding of how light propagates is based on what I learned in modern physics in college, a course that introduced me to quantum mechanics and in which we solved Schroedinger's equation for various situations. Now, I only have a Bachelor's in Physics, not a PhD., so I am sure I don't fully understand Quantum Mechanics, but I always enjoy a good discussion! Also, let's not forget that this forum is not a physics forum, but a Catholic Answers Forum, and the point of our discussions here is to think about how God may be involved in all of this science stuff! For heavy duty Physics we probably should join a Physics Forum, where true PhD. experts may actually hang out and help us with our questions. Now, if you have a PhD., my apologies to you for not giving you credit where credit is due, but if you don't, well, welcome to the club and maybe we can both benefit from each other's knowledge and experience! Ciao for now, and remember, the ultimate physicist is God! (in my humble opinion!)


No PhD, also Bachelor's in Physics. I likely covered the same Classical and Quantum that you did, yet QED and QFT have changed some since I was in college.


I realize that the exchange of virtual photons occurs with charged particles, per the standard theories, and since photons have no charge they must interact indirectly with each other through leptons or quarks. So in the Quantum Electro-Dynamic Theory, light propagates through the interaction of photons with quantum entangled pairs (an annihilation producing to two new photons of the same value as the original photon).

I agree that there is no medium needed for propagation of light, yet there is an interesting theory that “electromagnetic radiation must be thought of as propagating through open ended lines of force, where the lines of force consist of virtual photons of the virtual photon field and line up in the direction of propagation of the electromagnetic radiation into a line whose ends rest on infinity.”

I don't know the credentials of the author of the theory (D. Ramakuri). Part of the theory is that the universe is saturated with virtual photons, similar to real photons but with minimal energy, and moving in random directions, which align themselves as a real photon appears.

http://www.wbabin.net/Science-Journals/Research%20Papers-Relativity%20Theory/Download/501


http://www.geocities.ws/natureoflight/pg12.html
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