Trouble explaining Apostolic Succession

graceandfaith · #1 Mar 9, '12, 6:21 pm

Hello all! Just a quick background...I was raised very very Protestant...Sola Scriptura all the way! I will be welcomed into the Catholic Church on Easter Vigil! That being said...I'm having trouble explaining to a friend how Christ passed his authority to his disciples, and how that authority has been passed down in an unbroken line to the Catholic Church today. My friend's point being that he feels that that authority was passed down to all of us? How do I politely point out that what he's saying is not correct? I think he's referring to the Protestant belief in the "Priesthood of all believers".? Thanks so much!

pablope · #2 Mar 9, '12, 7:18 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by graceandfaith

Hello all! Just a quick background...I was raised very very Protestant...Sola Scriptura all the way! I will be welcomed into the Catholic Church on Easter Vigil! That being said...I'm having trouble explaining to a friend how Christ passed his authority to his disciples, and how that authority has been passed down in an unbroken line to the Catholic Church today. My friend's point being that he feels that that authority was passed down to all of us? How do I politely point out that what he's saying is not correct? I think he's referring to the Protestant belief in the "Priesthood of all believers".? Thanks so much!

First, look for Acts 1 or 2, when a successor to Judas is chosen...and Matthias is chosen. In Acts 13, Paul and Barnabas are ordained, or laid hands on...prior to going to their first missionary journey....so they are "sent"...with the HS acting through the "elders" of the Church at Antioch. By the way, as a side note, do you know who founded the Church at Antioch?

Also, look at the 1st epistle of clement of rome, where he writes......http://www.earlychristianwritings.co...t-roberts.html

And thus preaching through countries and cities, they appointed the first-fruits [of their labours], having first proved them by the Spirit, to be bishops and deacons of those who should afterwards believe. Nor was this any new thing, since indeed many ages before it was written concerning bishops and deacons. For thus says the Scripture a certain place, "I will appoint their bishops s in righteousness, and their deacons in faith."

Our apostles also knew, through our Lord Jesus Christ, and there would be strife on account of the office of the episcopate. For this reason, therefore, inasmuch as they had obtained a perfect fore-knowledge of this, they appointed those [ministers] already mentioned, and afterwards gave instructions, that when these should fall asleep, other approved men should succeed them in their ministry.

And St. Ireneus...appealed to Apostolic succession...to defeat Gnosticism......(ask your friend if St. Ireneus was dreaming something up, in his writings against the heresy of Gnosticism).....

St. Irenaeus explains how the Apostolic Tradition was to be found, to whom it was entrusted, and how it was preserved:

http://www.calledtocommunion.com/200...clesial-deism/

The Gnostics of the second century justified being separated from the Catholic Church by claiming that even the Apostles had perverted Christ’s teachings. St. Irenaeus (d. AD 200) writes:

But, again, when we refer [the heretics] to that tradition which originates from the apostles, [and] which is preserved by means of the succession of presbyters in the Churches, they object to tradition, saying that they themselves are wiser not merely than the presbyters, but even than the apostles, because they have discovered the unadulterated truth. For [they maintain] that the apostles intermingled the things of the law with the words of the Saviour; . . . It comes to this, therefore, that these men do now consent neither to Scripture nor to tradition.10

It is within the power of all, therefore, in every Church, who may wish to see the truth, to contemplate clearly the tradition of the apostles manifested throughout the whole world; and we are in a position to reckon up those who were by the apostles instituted bishops in the Churches, and [to demonstrate] the succession of these men to our own times; those who neither taught nor knew of anything like what these [heretics] rave about. For if the apostles had known hidden mysteries, which they were in the habit of imparting to “the perfect” apart and privily from the rest, they would have delivered them especially to those to whom they were also committing the Churches themselves. For they were desirous that these men should be very perfect and blameless in all things, whom also they were leaving behind as their successors, delivering up their own place of government to these men; which men, if they discharged their functions honestly, would be a great boon [to the Church], but if they should fall away, the direst calamity.

Since, however, it would be very tedious, in such a volume as this, to reckon up the successions of all the Churches, we do put to confusion all those who, in whatever manner, whether by an evil self-pleasing, by vainglory, or by blindness and perverse opinion, assemble in unauthorized meetings; [we do this, I say,] by indicating that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also [by pointing out] the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its preeminent authority, that is, the faithful everywhere, inasmuch as the tradition has been preserved continuously by those [faithful men] who exist everywhere.43

Cat Herder · #3 Mar 9, '12, 7:43 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by graceandfaith

Hello all! Just a quick background...I was raised very very Protestant...Sola Scriptura all the way! I will be welcomed into the Catholic Church on Easter Vigil! That being said...I'm having trouble explaining to a friend how Christ passed his authority to his disciples, and how that authority has been passed down in an unbroken line to the Catholic Church today. My friend's point being that he feels that that authority was passed down to all of us? How do I politely point out that what he's saying is not correct? I think he's referring to the Protestant belief in the "Priesthood of all believers".? Thanks so much!

Explained here

fred conty · #4 Mar 9, '12, 7:45 pm

'In the Catholic Church, there are many other things which most justly keep me in her bosom. The consent of peoples and nations keeps me in the Church; so does her authority, inaugurated by miracles, nourished by hope, enlarged by love, established by age. The succession of priests keeps me, beginning from the very seat of the Apostle Peter, to whom the Lord, after His resurrection, gave it in charge to feed His sheep, down to the present episcopate. And so, lastly, does the name itself of Catholic, which, not without reason, amid so many heresies, the Church has thus retained; so that, though all heretics wish to be called Catholics, yet when a stranger asks where the Catholic Church meets, no heretic will venture to point to his own chapel or house. Such then in number and importance are the precious ties belonging to the Christian name which keep a believer in the Catholic Church, as it is right they should. . . With you, where there is none of these things to attract or keep me. . . No one shall move me from the faith which binds my mind with ties so many and so strong to the Christian religion. . . For my part, I should not believe the gospel except as moved by the authority of the Catholic Church.'

St. Augustine

fred conty · #5 Mar 10, '12, 6:26 am

This site has many topics about the Pope explained including succession. Quite good.
http://www.davidmacd.com/catholic/pope.htm

lutherlic · #6 Mar 10, '12, 11:13 am

Also see ScriptureCatholic.com

rdscheirer · #7 Mar 10, '12, 4:32 pm

Look to the Bible- the "Keys to the Kingdom"- it is in the Old Testament that the King gave the keys to the Kingdom to his helper just as Jesus gives the "Keys of the Kingdom" to Peter to be able to forgive sins on Earth.

Crumpy · #8 Mar 10, '12, 5:09 pm

the overall explanation of sacred tradition including apostolic succession is found in a book called Tradition and the Church, by Msgr. George Agius. The basic idea is explained in the first 150-160 pages of the book, with a lot of additional information in the balance of the 317 pages.

Agius lays it out in a very logical sequence, without missing the critical scriptural references to demonstrate that the Catholic Church is the one true church of Jesus Christ.

I'm reading the Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture - The Book of Romans. I'm in the second chapter where Paul is explaining how we store up punishment for ourselves, not for our disbelief and unbelief, in itself, although I think that involves sin, but that the real problem is the sin we commit as a result of that disbelief and unbelief. We have an obligation to know the truth and to teach the truth.

The problem with the situation with your friend, is that there are a few verses in the Bible which seem to overturn Tradition. But, really, there's a lot more verses to support Tradition, and what does your friend do with THAT?

Be gentle. The truth is on your side. Give your friend a chance to come around.

tradition and succession were very important signs of orthodoxy in the early church, that this person learned the faith directily from the apostles or someone who was taught by the apostles. Pedigree was very important in settling questions.

A Gift · #9 Mar 10, '12, 6:46 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by graceandfaith

Hello all! Just a quick background...I was raised very very Protestant...Sola Scriptura all the way! I will be welcomed into the Catholic Church on Easter Vigil! That being said...I'm having trouble explaining to a friend how Christ passed his authority to his disciples, and how that authority has been passed down in an unbroken line to the Catholic Church today. My friend's point being that he feels that that authority was passed down to all of us? How do I politely point out that what he's saying is not correct? I think he's referring to the Protestant belief in the "Priesthood of all believers".? Thanks so much!

Always difficult to pass along that which is not in Scripture. God alone can forgive sins as stated in Scripture just the same as there is only one intercessor between man and God, the God-Man Jesus Christ. Do you know of any other intercessors contained in the entire Word? No.

The Jews tried to stone Jesus for making Himself to be God - how? By the forgiving of sins. Find one instant in the entire Bible where an ordinary man, such as an Apostle, said I forgive your sins; it was always in the Name or by the authority of Jesus - GOD.

Very Very Protestant? What does that mean? Please do not answer I found the statement somewhat amusing/interesting. I am considered protestant, but Christian is what I am. I have been predestined before time to be adopted as a son by God to whom I cry out often as Father or dad. Read Ephesians chapter 1 and if it is not one of the most comforting and glorious things you have ever read, then I hope one day it will. God bless.

A Gift · #10 Mar 10, '12, 7:01 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by rdscheirer

Look to the Bible- the "Keys to the Kingdom"- it is in the Old Testament that the King gave the keys to the Kingdom to his helper just as Jesus gives the "Keys of the Kingdom" to Peter to be able to forgive sins on Earth.

What specifically are the keys? What are they and what do they represent? Good luck.

Food for thought: Jesus speaking: And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write ; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth , and no man shutteth ; and shutteth , and no man openeth ;

Notice here a key of David - this is a clue to the meaning in Matthew 16:19 and also to all disciples (learners) in Matthew 18. You see the one who confess with their mouth and believes on the Lord will be saved, but to the one who hears and does not, the door is shut. hope this illuminates.

Also, find one time an Apostle or any man forgave a single sin on their own authority; you won't find one. There is only one way and only one intercessor between man and God. John 14:6 - I am very certain about this. God bless.

fred conty · #11 Mar 10, '12, 7:22 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by A Gift

What specifically are the keys? What are they and what do they represent? Good luck.

Food for thought: Jesus speaking: And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write ; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth , and no man shutteth ; and shutteth , and no man openeth ;

Notice here a key of David - this is a clue to the meaning in Matthew 16:19 and also to all disciples (learners) in Matthew 18. You see the one who confess with their mouth and believes on the Lord will be saved, but to the one who hears and does not, the door is shut. hope this illuminates.

Also, find one time an Apostle or any man forgave a single sin on their own authority; you won't find one. There is only one way and only one intercessor between man and God. John 14:6 - I am very certain about this. God bless.

What your interested in is a good topic but right now it is off the subject of the thread.
However if you will visit the following site, it has the info you are looking for.
http://www.davidmacd.com/catholic/pope.htm

SteveGC · #12 Mar 10, '12, 7:41 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by A Gift

Always difficult to pass along that which is not in Scripture.

The apostles and their successors had to do just that for almost 400 years after Christ's death, before anyone ever knew what Sacred Scripture was actually comprised of in it's totality.

Quote:

God alone can forgive sins as stated in Scripture just the same as there is only one intercessor between man and God, the God-Man Jesus Christ.

This represents Catholic teaching. The Church does not say that a priest is the one with the power to forgive. Rather, he is an instrument of God's sole power to forgive. And the Church agrees there is but one mediator between God and men, the man Jesus Christ. Again, priests are not mediators from us directly to God the Father, they are Christ's earthly shepherds to guide us to Himself, so that He may lead us to the Father.

Quote:

Do you know of any other intercessors contained in the entire Word? No.

Your use of the word "Word" to describe scripture is not scriptural. Do a search for "the word" in an online Bible and look at the 1500+ results and you'll see. The "Word" is predominantly and consistently used to describe the omnipotent spoken voice of God, and ultimately the manifestation of that power in the flesh, namely Christ, not the written words in a book. This is not to imply that Scripture is not the word of God (indeed it is, and you will indeed find a small handful where the word does refer to that which is written), but it is to highlight the fact that the Word of God cannot be confined to written words alone, even divinely inspired ones.

Quote:

The Jews tried to stone Jesus for making Himself to be God - how? By the forgiving of sins. Find one instant in the entire Bible where an ordinary man, such as an Apostle, said I forgive your sins; it was always in the Name or by the authority of Jesus - GOD.

The same God who said to those apostles "Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them: whose sins you shall retain, they are retained" [John 20:23]. And James verifies, "Is there anyone among you sick? Let him call in the priests of the church, and let us pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer of faith shall save the sick man, and the Lord shall raise him up, and if he have committed sins, he shall be forgiven" [James 5:14-15]

Peace be with you.

Singapore Nick · #13 Mar 11, '12, 1:45 am

Since only the Catholic Church has apostolic succession, sometimes I wonder why GOD works wonders in Protestant healing services or crusades ?

DENNYINMI · #14 Mar 11, '12, 6:37 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Singapore Nick

Since only the Catholic Church has apostolic succession, sometimes I wonder why GOD works wonders in Protestant healing services or crusades ?

It IS God HImself who imputes inward graces, through the outward Sacraments...But, He Himself is not bound to them.

He works His graces to whom He will.

DENNYINMI · #15 Mar 11, '12, 6:43 am

think he's referring to the Protestant belief in the "Priesthood of all believers".? Thanks so much! (quote)..........
__________________

Yes, we are all a "Priesthood of believers"...but we are all not "Ministerial Priests"......

Jesus Christ, the Eternal High Priest, wished that his one and indivisible priesthood be transmitted to his Church. This Church is the people of the New Covenant who, "through Baptism and the anointing of the Holy Spirit are reborn and consecrated as a spiritual temple and a holy priesthood. By living the Christian life, they offer up spiritual sacrifices and proclaim the prodigious deeds of Him who called them from darkness into his own wonderful light (cf. 1 Pt 2, 4-10)".[19] "There is but one chosen People of God: 'one Lord, one faith, one Baptism' (Eph 4, 5): there is a common dignity of members deriving from their rebirth in Christ, a common grace of filial adoption, a common vocation to perfection".[20] There exists "a true equality between all with regard to the dignity and to the activity which is common to all the faithful in the building up of the Body of Christ". By the will of Christ some are constituted "teachers, dispensers of the mysteries and pastors".[21] The common priesthood of the faithful and the ministerial or hierarchical priesthood "though they differ essentially and not only in degree... are none the less ordered one to another; [since] each in its own proper way shares in the one priesthood of Christ".[22] Between both there is an effective unity since the Holy Spirit makes the Church one in communion, in service and in the outpouring of the diverse hierarchical and charismatic gifts.[23]

www.catholicliturgy.com ministerial priesthood......